Debate Now What should be the goal of our prison system?

[Bruce_T_Laney]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Prison should be for reform and reeducation back into our society if possible.

Someone smoking weed is not a crime to me but robbing your mother ( not you ) is one that should be punished with hard labor and community service in some form when you have one year left on your sentence.

Hard core crimes like cold blooded murder is a toss away the keys moment but I also feel the person should pay their debt to the family or families and if the family agree to execution then kill the person.

Again it depends on the crime but one thing is for sure cellphone usage should be treated like a DUI because too many senseless deaths because of people being reckless while driving...

So a mix of both emphasizing on reeducation, hard labor and last year of sentence should focus on community service...

Yoar cool but I am cooler...

 

[22lcidw]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

The entire system needs overhauling.

All prosecutors should be required to spend every third year of their career as a public defender all the way up to the district attorney’s office. The poor get little defense in the current system.

Sentencing needs to be retroactively corrected.
Amber Guyger got 10 years after being convicted of murder. Paul Cullen...also a Texan...got 9 years. He poisoned a tree in Austin. Some in prison for lengthy sentences were not convicted of violent crimes while those who were got lesser sentences.

Rehabilitation is a joke for the most part. A 5 y/o knows the difference between right and wrong. No need for rehab. Job training is given free of charge to criminals but not civilians and the result is more people in prison than ever before—or close to it anyway.

If you do want to do rehab training, do it during the 6 months before parole hearings. As with all training, it gets stale when not used.

Job training used to be incorporated in schools in "shop" classes. School clubs included those that valued and enhanced hands-on, practical subjects. Now, public school funds are expended on "inclusive" indoctrination about homosexuality and other social issues that parents used to teach children. Unfortunately, parental values are too often in conflict with the liberal narrative, which is taught in public schools. Dealing with limited funding, our liberal masters would rather waste money insuring that the proper pronouns are applied to the mentally deranged than teaching children useful life skills.

You are tragically mistaken.

Vocational education does need to be put back in school.

Budget cuts to sports would help make that so. Intramural athletics is as far as sports should be taken. Traveling across the state to play a football game is crazy.

Title IX has hurt.

Not at all

It has taken resources from man's sports which play many vital roles for males and gave them for mostly useless women's sports. most of the money taken in from colleges are from Football and Men's Basketball. We see the resuts with male poverty and violence and don't get it. When midnight basketball was started a couple of decades ago or so in poorer neighborhoods there was a reason. As the poverty rate keeps inching up there will be a blow off point.

 

[Likkmee]

Hard choices

 

[candycorn]

The entire system needs overhauling.

All prosecutors should be required to spend every third year of their career as a public defender all the way up to the district attorney’s office. The poor get little defense in the current system.

Sentencing needs to be retroactively corrected.
Amber Guyger got 10 years after being convicted of murder. Paul Cullen...also a Texan...got 9 years. He poisoned a tree in Austin. Some in prison for lengthy sentences were not convicted of violent crimes while those who were got lesser sentences.

Rehabilitation is a joke for the most part. A 5 y/o knows the difference between right and wrong. No need for rehab. Job training is given free of charge to criminals but not civilians and the result is more people in prison than ever before—or close to it anyway.

If you do want to do rehab training, do it during the 6 months before parole hearings. As with all training, it gets stale when not used.

Job training used to be incorporated in schools in "shop" classes. School clubs included those that valued and enhanced hands-on, practical subjects. Now, public school funds are expended on "inclusive" indoctrination about homosexuality and other social issues that parents used to teach children. Unfortunately, parental values are too often in conflict with the liberal narrative, which is taught in public schools. Dealing with limited funding, our liberal masters would rather waste money insuring that the proper pronouns are applied to the mentally deranged than teaching children useful life skills.

You are tragically mistaken.

Vocational education does need to be put back in school.

Budget cuts to sports would help make that so. Intramural athletics is as far as sports should be taken. Traveling across the state to play a football game is crazy.

Title IX has hurt.

Not at all

It has taken resources from man's sports which play many vital roles for males and gave them for mostly useless women's sports. most of the money taken in from colleges are from Football and Men's Basketball. We see the resuts with male poverty and violence and don't get it. When midnight basketball was started a couple of decades ago or so in poorer neighborhoods there was a reason. As the poverty rate keeps inching up there will be a blow off point.

wow, That was the dumbest thing ever written.

Seriously...cutting scholarships has resulted in more crime?

 

[22lcidw]

Job training used to be incorporated in schools in "shop" classes. School clubs included those that valued and enhanced hands-on, practical subjects. Now, public school funds are expended on "inclusive" indoctrination about homosexuality and other social issues that parents used to teach children. Unfortunately, parental values are too often in conflict with the liberal narrative, which is taught in public schools. Dealing with limited funding, our liberal masters would rather waste money insuring that the proper pronouns are applied to the mentally deranged than teaching children useful life skills.

You are tragically mistaken.

Vocational education does need to be put back in school.

Budget cuts to sports would help make that so. Intramural athletics is as far as sports should be taken. Traveling across the state to play a football game is crazy.

Title IX has hurt.

Not at all

It has taken resources from man's sports which play many vital roles for males and gave them for mostly useless women's sports. most of the money taken in from colleges are from Football and Men's Basketball. We see the resuts with male poverty and violence and don't get it. When midnight basketball was started a couple of decades ago or so in poorer neighborhoods there was a reason. As the poverty rate keeps inching up there will be a blow off point.

wow, That was the dumbest thing ever written.

Seriously...cutting scholarships has resulted in more crime?

There is a difference between men's sports and women's sports. Men live by testosterone and potential violence if conditions are right. Sports is an outlet. Money detoured to women's sports leaves less money for men's sports or activities to tire males. Now there are people who will skewer me for this. And if I had daughters I would understand it from that angle. There is not enough funds to cover and help everyone in our nation. You see the areas where there is chaos and anarchy. You see the drug problems we have. If we improve things for men then we will improve things for women. But we won't learn and will still be heading towards massive violence at some point. Why? Because that is the human way throughout history.

 

[candycorn]

You are tragically mistaken.

Vocational education does need to be put back in school.

Budget cuts to sports would help make that so. Intramural athletics is as far as sports should be taken. Traveling across the state to play a football game is crazy.

Title IX has hurt.

Not at all

It has taken resources from man's sports which play many vital roles for males and gave them for mostly useless women's sports. most of the money taken in from colleges are from Football and Men's Basketball. We see the resuts with male poverty and violence and don't get it. When midnight basketball was started a couple of decades ago or so in poorer neighborhoods there was a reason. As the poverty rate keeps inching up there will be a blow off point.

wow, That was the dumbest thing ever written.

Seriously...cutting scholarships has resulted in more crime?

There is a difference between men's sports and women's sports. Men live by testosterone and potential violence if conditions are right. Sports is an outlet. Money detoured to women's sports leaves less money for men's sports or activities to tire males. Now there are people who will skewer me for this. And if I had daughters I would understand it from that angle. There is not enough funds to cover and help everyone in our nation. You see the areas where there is chaos and anarchy. You see the drug problems we have. If we improve things for men then we will improve things for women. But we won't learn and will still be heading towards massive violence at some point. Why? Because that is the human way throughout history.

Wow

Amazingly other cultures without Title IX have far less violence.

 

[Bleipriester]

If anyone is serious about reducing the prison population the starting point is teaching right from wrong even if you have to drag around religion to do it. There is no right to commit a crime.

The only prison policy is profit. That´s a reason for the large prison population. People without money get harsh punishments that are arranged between judiciary and private prison company.

 

[Andylusion]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

 

[22lcidw]

Title IX has hurt.

Not at all

It has taken resources from man's sports which play many vital roles for males and gave them for mostly useless women's sports. most of the money taken in from colleges are from Football and Men's Basketball. We see the resuts with male poverty and violence and don't get it. When midnight basketball was started a couple of decades ago or so in poorer neighborhoods there was a reason. As the poverty rate keeps inching up there will be a blow off point.

wow, That was the dumbest thing ever written.

Seriously...cutting scholarships has resulted in more crime?

There is a difference between men's sports and women's sports. Men live by testosterone and potential violence if conditions are right. Sports is an outlet. Money detoured to women's sports leaves less money for men's sports or activities to tire males. Now there are people who will skewer me for this. And if I had daughters I would understand it from that angle. There is not enough funds to cover and help everyone in our nation. You see the areas where there is chaos and anarchy. You see the drug problems we have. If we improve things for men then we will improve things for women. But we won't learn and will still be heading towards massive violence at some point. Why? Because that is the human way throughout history.

Wow

Amazingly other cultures without Title IX have far less violence.

Perhaps we tolerate it.

 

[Crick]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Morning,

Whatever the intention, the US incarceration system currently serves only two purposes: separating criminals from the rest of society and punishment. As you noted, recidivism is rampant and that almost completely negates any reformative function, at least on a statistical basis. Obviously, for the benefit of society as well as the individuals in the penal system, the maximum benefit would be reformation. I like your idea of mandatory education/training. I would preface such a program with the tools necessary to determine an inmate's interests and capabilities to increase the chances of a favorable outcome. On another topic, I would send all substance abusers to rehab treatment programs vice prison. I would eliminate all 3-strikes policies. I would legislate substantial penalties for employment or housing discrimination against released convicts and work on a Constitutional amendment banning disenfranchisement for criminal conduct at any point.

The ideal would be that individuals coming out of the penal system should be fully able to begin a normal life, both via their own abilities and fair and unbiased opportunities in society. Obviously, that will not be attained overnight and is simply a target to constantly work towards. That effort must begin with active measures to end the common current perception of the system as appropriately punitive and of humans as both irremediable and disposable.

Take care and stay healthy

 

[miketx]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Morning,

Whatever the intention, the US incarceration system currently serves only two purposes: separating criminals from the rest of society and punishment. As you noted, recidivism is rampant and that almost completely negates any reformative function, at least on a statistical basis. Obviously, for the benefit of society as well as the individuals in the penal system, the maximum benefit would be reformation. I like your idea of mandatory education/training. I would preface such a program with the tools necessary to determine an inmate's interests and capabilities to increase the chances of a favorable outcome. On another topic, I would send all substance abusers to rehab treatment programs vice prison. I would eliminate all 3-strikes policies. I would legislate substantial penalties for employment or housing discrimination against released convicts and work on a Constitutional amendment banning disenfranchisement for criminal conduct at any point.

The ideal would be that individuals coming out of the penal system should be fully able to begin a normal life, both via their own abilities and fair and unbiased opportunities in society. Obviously, that will not be attained overnight and is simply a target to constantly work towards. That effort must begin with active measures to end the common current perception of the system as appropriately punitive and of humans as both irremediable and disposable.

Take care and stay healthy

I see you don't know what you speak of either. Their are programs for getting high school diplomas and college degrees in prison. There are technical jobs that take on apprentices, and there are programs geared toward helping offenders prepare for being released that help them locate jobs, housing etc. In my experience most of the recidivism is caused by the convict themselves and have even had convicts admit to me that they enjoyed selling drugs and having a lot of money and prison didn't really bother them that much. Criminals belong in prison.

 

[Crick]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

Morning,

A few points:

1) The penal system is part of the American system of justice. The portion of my taxes that go to the justice system do a great deal more than pay for the reform of some individual who harmed me. The fundamental purpose of the justice system is to push our society to one of universal mutual respect. This benefits all.
2) Successfully reforming criminals into functional members of our society benefits me in many ways: it reduces the threat of criminal activity aimed at me and mine and, by reducing the cost of enforcement and increasing average income, reduces the cost to me both directly via taxation and through the added cost of merchandise needed to fund secondary processes: security and insurance.
3) I hold all humans to have value. Even were society to receive no tangible benefit from turning someone away from criminal behavior, I would deem it a worthy goal - certainly worth the few pennies of my tax dollar funding such efforts.

 

[Crick]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Morning,

Whatever the intention, the US incarceration system currently serves only two purposes: separating criminals from the rest of society and punishment. As you noted, recidivism is rampant and that almost completely negates any reformative function, at least on a statistical basis. Obviously, for the benefit of society as well as the individuals in the penal system, the maximum benefit would be reformation. I like your idea of mandatory education/training. I would preface such a program with the tools necessary to determine an inmate's interests and capabilities to increase the chances of a favorable outcome. On another topic, I would send all substance abusers to rehab treatment programs vice prison. I would eliminate all 3-strikes policies. I would legislate substantial penalties for employment or housing discrimination against released convicts and work on a Constitutional amendment banning disenfranchisement for criminal conduct at any point.

The ideal would be that individuals coming out of the penal system should be fully able to begin a normal life, both via their own abilities and fair and unbiased opportunities in society. Obviously, that will not be attained overnight and is simply a target to constantly work towards. That effort must begin with active measures to end the common current perception of the system as appropriately punitive and of humans as both irremediable and disposable.

Take care and stay healthy

I see you don't know what you speak of either. Their are programs for getting high school diplomas and college degrees in prison. There are technical jobs that take on apprentices, and there are programs geared toward helping offenders prepare for being released that help them locate jobs, housing etc. In my experience most of the recidivism is caused by the convict themselves and have even had convicts admit to me that they enjoyed selling drugs and having a lot of money and prison didn't really bother them that much. Criminals belong in prison.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Are you saying that some portion of prison inmates benefit from such programs and others do not?

 

[Crick]

Lethal injection to all felons.
A purge, if you will.

Killing people not found guilty of capital offenses would make you a murderer, and thus vulnerable to capital punishment yourself.

 

[TNHarley]

Lethal injection to all felons.
A purge, if you will.

Killing people not found guilty of capital offenses would make you a murderer, and thus vulnerable to capital punishment yourself.

How do you apply capital punishment to the govt?

 

[there4eyeM]

It would be useful to revisit outdated ideas of free choice in view of what we know about the mind, psychology and early development. Pretending that everyone is equal in ability to choose overlooks fact and common sense.
Next, how capacity for choice can be reformed is also better understood, but erroneous concepts of "humanism" and "freedom" again paralyze action. Very close scrutiny must accompany effective action in order to assure no abuse occurs, but much more vigorous steps must be taken to help criminals and help society.

 

[there4eyeM]

Lethal injection to all felons.
A purge, if you will.

Killing people not found guilty of capital offenses would make you a murderer, and thus vulnerable to capital punishment yourself.

How do you apply capital punishment to the govt?

"Revolution" comes to mind.

 

[miketx]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Morning,

Whatever the intention, the US incarceration system currently serves only two purposes: separating criminals from the rest of society and punishment. As you noted, recidivism is rampant and that almost completely negates any reformative function, at least on a statistical basis. Obviously, for the benefit of society as well as the individuals in the penal system, the maximum benefit would be reformation. I like your idea of mandatory education/training. I would preface such a program with the tools necessary to determine an inmate's interests and capabilities to increase the chances of a favorable outcome. On another topic, I would send all substance abusers to rehab treatment programs vice prison. I would eliminate all 3-strikes policies. I would legislate substantial penalties for employment or housing discrimination against released convicts and work on a Constitutional amendment banning disenfranchisement for criminal conduct at any point.

The ideal would be that individuals coming out of the penal system should be fully able to begin a normal life, both via their own abilities and fair and unbiased opportunities in society. Obviously, that will not be attained overnight and is simply a target to constantly work towards. That effort must begin with active measures to end the common current perception of the system as appropriately punitive and of humans as both irremediable and disposable.

Take care and stay healthy

I see you don't know what you speak of either. Their are programs for getting high school diplomas and college degrees in prison. There are technical jobs that take on apprentices, and there are programs geared toward helping offenders prepare for being released that help them locate jobs, housing etc. In my experience most of the recidivism is caused by the convict themselves and have even had convicts admit to me that they enjoyed selling drugs and having a lot of money and prison didn't really bother them that much. Criminals belong in prison.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Are you saying that some portion of prison inmates benefit from such programs and others do not?

No, I'm saying that the cons have to want to rehabilitate and many simply do not want to or don't care. All services are available to the cons who want to take advantage of them.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Morning,

Whatever the intention, the US incarceration system currently serves only two purposes: separating criminals from the rest of society and punishment. As you noted, recidivism is rampant and that almost completely negates any reformative function, at least on a statistical basis. Obviously, for the benefit of society as well as the individuals in the penal system, the maximum benefit would be reformation. I like your idea of mandatory education/training. I would preface such a program with the tools necessary to determine an inmate's interests and capabilities to increase the chances of a favorable outcome. On another topic, I would send all substance abusers to rehab treatment programs vice prison. I would eliminate all 3-strikes policies. I would legislate substantial penalties for employment or housing discrimination against released convicts and work on a Constitutional amendment banning disenfranchisement for criminal conduct at any point.

The ideal would be that individuals coming out of the penal system should be fully able to begin a normal life, both via their own abilities and fair and unbiased opportunities in society. Obviously, that will not be attained overnight and is simply a target to constantly work towards. That effort must begin with active measures to end the common current perception of the system as appropriately punitive and of humans as both irremediable and disposable.

Take care and stay healthy

I see you don't know what you speak of either. Their are programs for getting high school diplomas and college degrees in prison. There are technical jobs that take on apprentices, and there are programs geared toward helping offenders prepare for being released that help them locate jobs, housing etc. In my experience most of the recidivism is caused by the convict themselves and have even had convicts admit to me that they enjoyed selling drugs and having a lot of money and prison didn't really bother them that much. Criminals belong in prison.

You are incorrect. While most prisons do in fact offer GED classes, not a lot offer college courses and even fewer offer technical training. You are talking about minimum security facilities. Maximum security facilities offer very little. The prison I was in offered GED courses and a law library as well as limited construction "classes" I put that in quotes because the "class" wasn't to teach me it was to build out buildings for pennies on the dollar that they then sold for massive profits to the public. I got paid .69 cents PER DAY to build those buildings. When I was released I was given a 100.00 gate fee and kicked out the door.
There were no drug classes I could take and that's what my convictions revolved around.
Other prisoners worked in the kitchen and in the laundry. I can assure you peeling thousands of potatoes for 3 hours is not a marketable skill.

The problem lies with the system using inmates to essentially run the services of the prison and leaving little time for them to learn anything of substance.
There is an argument to be made that that is fair and just but the flip side to that is many come out of prison just as angry and uneducated as they were when they went in.

 

[Crick]

Lethal injection to all felons.
A purge, if you will.

Killing people not found guilty of capital offenses would make you a murderer, and thus vulnerable to capital punishment yourself.

How do you apply capital punishment to the govt?

You could effectively apply capital punishment to our government at the ballot box. But the more important question here is why do you think everyone in prison deserves to die?