What Is Racism?

[IM2]

His blood type is R+.

No, that would be you.

 

[IM2]

“White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium.”

"Because most whites have not been trained to think with complexity about racism, and because it benefits white dominance not to do so, we have a very limited understanding of it (Kumashiro, 2009; LaDuke, 2009). We are the least likely to see, comprehend, or be invested in validating people of color’s assertions of racism and being honest about their consequences (King, 1991). At the same time, because of white social, economic, and political power within a white dominant culture, whites are the group in the position to legitimize people of color’s assertions of racism.Being in this position engenders a form of racial arrogance, and in this racial arrogance, whites have little compunction about debating the knowledge of people who have thought deeply about race through research, study, peer-reviewed scholarship, deep and on-going critical self-reflection, interracial relationships, and lived experience (Chinnery, 2008). This expertise is often trivialized and countered with simplistic platitudes, such as “people just need to see each other as individuals” or “see each other as humans” or “take personal responsibility.”​

White lack of racial humility often leads to declarations of disagreement when in fact the problem is that we do not understand. Whites generally feel free to dismiss informed perspectives rather than have the humility to acknowledge that they are unfamiliar, reflect on them further, seek more information, or sustain a dialogue (DiAngelo & Sensoy, 2009)."

Dr. Robin DiAngelo

Thiese forums are full of this behavior and even as you guys are doing it, you swear that you're not. That's psychosis folk and the white racists here are prime examples of this disorder.

 

[Meister]

No racism here. I am apparently better educated than you because I do know what racism is and the dfinition doesn't change because I don't like what's being said like you do. IYou guys make me laugh with your tactics. Because if I only spoke only my opinion, then your punk ass would ask for a link. Yet when I present stuff from links I'm stealing something. Just admit defeat.

You're a racist, IM2. Embrace that part of your hatred, it runs through your veins. You can't even recognize it because of your hatred toward
whities.

 

[Circe]

Racism is the blacks raiding in bandit groups of 50 to 80 those many San Fran jewelry stores and Nordstrom's and others this weekend and the Waukesha mass murderer running his SUV through the Xmas parade, killing and injuring so many.

 

[Meister]

Racism is the blacks raiding in bandit groups of 50 to 80 those many San Fran jewelry stores and Nordstrom's and others this weekend and the Waukesha mass murderer running his SUV through the Xmas parade, killing and injuring so many.

I agree with you, but, I think IM2 will disagree with you.
He'll call it reparations for the last 245 years of injustice.

 

[Circe]

I agree with you, but, I think IM2 will disagree with you.
He'll call it reparations for the last 245 years of injustice.

Don't get me started on that awful IM2.

I'm reading the Woke Racism book by John McWhorter --- wonderful book, wonderful thinking. I'll review it here at some point, I hope.

 

[MarathonMike]

The mob has been killing for over a century. Just face reality. Whites have been to most violent a criminal group in America.

Black Denial on full display. It's more important to blame White people than save the next generation of Inner City Black kids.

 

[IM2]

Black Denial on full display. It's more important to blame White people than save the next generation of Inner City Black kids.

There is no black denial here.

In 2019 approximately 2,700 blacks were murdered.

• Researchers say a lifelong discrimination can increase the risk of high blood pressure in Black Americans.
• The experts note discrimination over a lifetime such as not getting certain jobs produces a different kind of stress than day-to-day discrimination such as being treated disrespectfully.
• Experts say understanding the effects of discrimination on health can lead to better treatments and prevention measures.

Discrimination Can Lead to High Blood Pressure in Black Americans

Experts say discrimination over a lifetime can cause stress that eventually can produce high blood pressure.

www.healthline.com

The per capita rate for murder is something like 8 per 100,000.

Far more blacks are killed by racism related stress that results in heart attacks and strokes. Approximately 100,000 blacks die annually from this and you are talking about inner city crime to race bait.

So you talk about something that was proven to be reduced more than 8 years ago and I showed you the article. You can charrypick all you want but inner city kids are far more likely to grow up and face heakth issues and death due to the stress caused by the white racism you continue to deny.

The root cause of the problems blacks face is white racism. That's the way it is.

 

[Meister]

There is no black denial here.

In 2019 approximately 2,700 blacks were murdered.

• Researchers say a lifelong discrimination can increase the risk of high blood pressure in Black Americans.
• The experts note discrimination over a lifetime such as not getting certain jobs produces a different kind of stress than day-to-day discrimination such as being treated disrespectfully.
• Experts say understanding the effects of discrimination on health can lead to better treatments and prevention measures.

Discrimination Can Lead to High Blood Pressure in Black Americans

Experts say discrimination over a lifetime can cause stress that eventually can produce high blood pressure.

www.healthline.com

View attachment 567254

View attachment 567253
The per capita rate for murder is something like 8 per 100,000.

Far more blacks are killed by racism related stress that results in heart attacks and strokes. Approximately 100,000 blacks die annually from this and you are talking about inner city crime to race bait.

So you talk about something that was proven to be reduced more than 8 years ago and I showed you the article. You can charrypick all you want but inner city kids are far more likely to grow up and face heakth issues and death due to the stress caused by the white racism you continue to deny.

The root cause of the problems blacks face is white racism. That's the way it is.

Always the victim, IM2

 

[JoeMoma]

How old are you? You ain't 245 years old. Those policies were ELIMINATED 60 years ago.

There is NO instirutional racism in the USA today. There ARE racists. You are a shining example. Racists need to be educated, and if they remain stupid, I am all for sending them packing.

YOU are a racist piece of shit. Move to some other country and whine like you do.

You won't live long.

IM2 has set an impossible standard. Nothing that can be done or is in effect now can go back and change history No matter the progress that has been made, it will never satisfy IM2 and his ilk.

 

[flacaltenn]

Flacaltenn, no matter what you say, it is disputed by history. And whites are working in corporations with art and philosphy degrees so just stop with the racist garbage about minority studies. Because not everybody blacks is getting a degree in minority studies. Most blacks I went to college with left with business degrees.

My dear bud.. EVERYTHING "is disputed in history".. The Earth turns out to be NOT flat. The sun doesn't rotate around US. You cannot prove a lady is a witch by DROWNING her.. Having ROYALTY or a CASTE system was ugly. Slavery was ugly. The entire DARK AGES were filled with injustice, plagues, petty wars, poverty, famine and death.

SO WHY YOU WANT TO blame the 6th generation for the sins of their fathers? There's places in Europe where white people are still feuding with clans that killed their families 600 years ago.. Is that helpful?

If you get a corporate job with an art or history degree, it might be BECAUSE corporations NEED artists (actually a LOT OF THEM- especially digital artists) and some need history majors (who generally come with language fluency in the country or region they chose. Or those folks will be TRAINED to go into marketing and sales.

If you choose DEI/minority studies, YOU WILL GET HIRED. But you're a cog in the armor that that corporation has to SOLELY PROTECT it from being accused of racism. And your "job" will be to construct a woke cocoon with memos and training sessions and boundaries between the different colored employees and other DIVISIVE "intersectionalities" that are ONLY important if you STUMBLE UPON OBVIOUS racists and bigots. Which are actually ALMOST EXTINCT NOW in the corporate world. It's tilting at windmills or looking for BigFoot..

The REAL racists and bigots GENERALLY are NOT IN THE CORPORATE world. If you're a black kid looking for them to "educate them" -- go to a bunch of biker bars or hang out at Tiki Torch rallies..

Your kids in minority studies are hunting racists in the desert..



If that floats your boat as a CAREER -- more power to ya...

 

[flacaltenn]

But the USA would rather every village run their own school

So you have a system with profoundly unstandardized schools, profoundly unstandardized financial resources, profoundly unstandardized teaching training, profoundly unstandardized curriculum.

Nope, that shitty excuse doesn't fly man. The ORIGIN of the movement to END TESTING like SAT and ACT and call advanced placement in H.S. racist was DIRECTLY IN FEDERAL ATTEMPTS to NATIONALIZE academic standards. And the Dept of Ed spent YEARS coming up with the "National Assessment Test" system to MEASURE the performance of each "local village" school.

They DID THIS to find the failing schools. And the results were that almost ALL the failing schools were in communities of color. SO -- there was a HUGE OUTCRY that ANY KIND of testing for academic achievement was racist and the TESTS THEMSELVES were racist. And it was the FUCKING UNIONS and leftist orgs that SHUT DOWN this small step to find the failing schools.

WITHOUT the testing, your HOLY Fed govt had no FACTS on where the problems were. This is what happens when 200Million people try to decide "what for dinner tonight". Without FACTS -- a Federal SOLUTION to TARGET programs was useless.

You're racism is 80% politics. You want to FORCE "one size fits all" poorly run and managed programs that cost 3 times TOO MUCH and produce the 1/2 of the results of local control which is ALWAYS more responsive to community needs.

If you want CENTRALLY PLANNED EVERYTHING and have AOC design your new national energy system and Bernie (I LOVE breadlines) Sanders be in charge of national finance -- Go commie. After all, you and IM2 think that ALL BLACK PEOPLE listen to you and should be excommunicated if they dont.

There's no "special expertise" in Washington D.C. Especially not in the Dept of Ed. 180 MILLION folks wake up in the morning and go to work to solve issues. If YOU want to rely on a President and the 535 clowns in Congress to RUN EVERYTHING in your life -- move to China..

 

[flacaltenn]

And then ppl act shocked when at the end of an unstandardized process all the kids coming through don't do equally as well and you say to those who didn't do as well (who will disproportionately be black of low income because who those are ones who are likely to go to the schools without those equal resources) that "You can't go to that college" "You can't to this uni" "Matter of fact you can't go to any college at all" "You're not that smart".

Nope.. As I just said when the bad news came back that the failing schools were predominantly in black communities, white folks did NOT CHEER. And RATIONAL folks would have said -- WE NEED TO FIX that -- by putting failing school teachers and staff on notice that IMPROVEMENTS HAD TO BE MADE -- or -- the kids would be allowed to matriculate elsewhere.

But RATIONAL people did not get that chance. Instead, the race industry activists SHUT DOWN THE TESTING.. Teachers' screamed that they did nothing but "teach to the test" and there was too much testing and the testing was just racist. WHEN IN REALITY -- the testing was what was expected of an objective neutrally designed program.

Kids and parent dont have decades to fix this. For THEM its now or never.. And folks that shut down Federal academic testing and demand that failing schools be KEPT -- are out of their freakin' minds. MAJORITY OF BLACK PARENTS feel that's true..

Now to be fair -- we should talk about the issues of IMPROVING black failing schools. And ONE THING the Federal Govt DID DO was start "Teach for America".. Hard to attract the BEST teachers to failing schools. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY. So they took recent college grads and PAID THEM to teach inner cities, I think in exchange for forgiving a portion of their student loans. That's AT LEAST a rational thing to try. I've talked to several of them who survived. And they all told me that these kids were SOOO unprepared for their current grade and so hard to focus on academics that they felt powerless to do anything.


The APPROACH should be -- Deal with the parent(s) that GIVE A SHIT FIRST. Let them have vouchers to alternative charters or even accredited private schools. THEN focus all this "head start" womb to tomb" nanny state effort on teaching kids to LOVE learning and how to think independently, and that they CAN succeed in academics. Instead of the leftist crap like from Wolf Blitzer "they are all SOOO poor and SOOO black" that they are doomed to fail..

We could GET to the point where there's NOT a disparity.. But NOT WITH one size fits all and math, science and history are all racist.

 

[Paul Essien]

Nope.. As I just said when the bad news came back that the failing schools were predominantly in black communities, white folks did NOT CHEER. And RATIONAL folks would have said -- WE NEED TO FIX that -- by putting failing school teachers and staff on notice that IMPROVEMENTS HAD TO BE MADE -- or -- the kids would be allowed to matriculate elsewhere.

But RATIONAL people did not get that chance. Instead, the race industry activists SHUT DOWN THE TESTING.. Teachers' screamed that they did nothing but "teach to the test" and there was too much testing and the testing was just racist. WHEN IN REALITY -- the testing was what was expected of an objective neutrally designed program.

Kids and parent dont have decades to fix this. For THEM its now or never.. And folks that shut down Federal academic testing and demand that failing schools be KEPT -- are out of their freakin' minds. MAJORITY OF BLACK PARENTS feel that's true..

Now to be fair -- we should talk about the issues of IMPROVING black failing schools. And ONE THING the Federal Govt DID DO was start "Teach for America".. Hard to attract the BEST teachers to failing schools. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY. So they took recent college grads and PAID THEM to teach inner cities, I think in exchange for forgiving a portion of their student loans. That's AT LEAST a rational thing to try. I've talked to several of them who survived. And they all told me that these kids were SOOO unprepared for their current grade and so hard to focus on academics that they felt powerless to do anything.


The APPROACH should be -- Deal with the parent(s) that GIVE A SHIT FIRST. Let them have vouchers to alternative charters or even accredited private schools. THEN focus all this "head start" womb to tomb" nanny state effort on teaching kids to LOVE learning and how to think independently, and that they CAN succeed in academics. Instead of the leftist crap like from Wolf Blitzer "they are all SOOO poor and SOOO black" that they are doomed to fail..

We could GET to the point where there's NOT a disparity.. But NOT WITH one size fits all and math, science and history are all racist.

The fk you blabbing about. You can't find any meany place, any uni, any college. any where in the country that is lowering the levels for black people (I mean that's always the white supremacist argument - Right ? They letting dumb blk in etc)

OK. Name them.

NAME THEM

Let's be clear on thing.

Black people are the only people who practice meritocracy. We don't have people in places with muscle who can who can creak open a door for us.

Black people are obligated to practice meritocracy because there is no mechanism that allow us to cheat the system.

White and non black people are the ones who are caught in these cheating scandals, tutoring scandals, payoff scandals, degree scandals.

 

[MarathonMike]

Researchers say a lifelong discrimination can increase the risk of high blood pressure in Black Americans.

I'm worried about your blood pressure IM2. Maybe you should put me on Ignore, the truth seems to make you very angry.

 

[westwall]

The fk you blabbing about. You can't find any meany place, any uni, any college. any where in the country that is lowering the levels for black people (I mean that's always the white supremacist argument - Right ? They letting dumb blk in etc)

OK. Name them.

NAME THEM

Let's be clear on thing.

Black people are the only people who practice meritocracy. We don't have people in places with muscle who can who can creak open a door for us.

Black people are obligated to practice meritocracy because there is no mechanism that allow us to cheat the system.

White and non black people are the ones who are caught in these cheating scandals, tutoring scandals, payoff scandals, degree scandals.

Good golly but you are a demanding prick aren't you!

Typical racist black, demand everyone else do YOUR work for you.

University of California Drops SAT/ACT Scores: What It Means for You

Wondering if you still need to take the SAT or ACT to get into University of California? We explain the UC schools' new policy and what it means for you.

blog.prepscholar.com

And now the why..


"In 1926, the SAT was created to give talented students, regardless of income, the chance to compete for college admission and scholarships. Nearly 100 years later, it often excludes the lower-income students it was created to help. Although the original exam was primarily aimed at economic diversity, part of its stated modern mission is to help increase racial diversity, too.

But Black and Hispanic or Latino students routinely score lower on the math section of the SAT — a likely result of generations of exclusionary housing, education, and economic policy — which too often means that, rather than reducing existing race gaps, using the test in college admissions reinforces them."

SAT math scores mirror and maintain racial inequity | Brookings

The math section of the SAT mirrors race gaps—what can we do about it?

www.brookings.edu

And it is ALL of these unis, plus many more.

UC Schools / List of UC Schools

www.sanjuan.edu

 

[flacaltenn]

The fk you blabbing about. You can't find any meany place, any uni, any college. any where in the country that is lowering the levels for black people (I mean that's always the white supremacist argument - Right ? They letting dumb blk in etc)

OK. Name them.

NAME THEM

Let's be clear on thing.

Black people are the only people who practice meritocracy. We don't have people in places with muscle who can who can creak open a door for us.

Black people are obligated to practice meritocracy because there is no mechanism that allow us to cheat the system.

White and non black people are the ones who are caught in these cheating scandals, tutoring scandals, payoff scandals, degree scandals.

You're really not getting this are you? It's not a matter of PRIMARILY lowering standards to accept black students, Its a matter of UNIVERSALLY LOWERING standards to AVOID charges of racism..

However, the EVALUATION of college applications HAS CHANGED almost universally at EVERY University.. I didn't want to go to the RACE card here, but here we go..

NCAA proposes to remove minimum test scores

An NCAA task force recommended on Friday that incoming freshmen in Division I and II sports should no longer be required to meet minimum scores on standardized tests for initial eligibility.

www.espn.com

NCAA task force recommends removing minimum standardized test scores in effort to advance racial equity​

Oct 15, 2021

An NCAA task force recommended on Friday that incoming freshmen in Division I and II sports should no longer be required to meet minimum scores on standardized tests for initial eligibility.
The recommendation was made by the NCAA Standardized Test Score Task Force, which was formed as part of the NCAA's eight-point plan to advance racial equity. The Division I Committee on Academics and Division II Academic Requirements Committee will consider the recommendation at their next scheduled meetings in February. Changes to initial-eligibility requirements would also have to be reviewed and made through each division's legislative process.

The Future of College Entrance Exams | BestColleges

After temporarily dropping SAT/ACT requirements due to COVID-19, some schools, including the University of California, are making the changes permanent.

www.bestcolleges.com

A growing number of colleges will omit SAT and ACT testing from admission requirements. At the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, many institutions adopted a test-optional policy. Now, several colleges, including the large University of California system, plan to remove ACT and SAT scores from consideration in all admission and financial aid decisions.

Now, in response to long-standing criticism of standardized testing, the UC system is making the change permanent. UC's decision comes as part of a legal settlement with students and advocacy groups who argue that standardized tests place an unfair disadvantage on already disadvantaged students.

More schools are following suit. A coalition of colleges in Washington state plan to go test-optional. The City University of New York won't require prospective students to take the SAT or ACT to be admitted through spring 2023. And the governor of Colorado just signed a law that prohibits public colleges and universities in the state from considering SAT/ACT scores for incoming first-year students.


Critics of standardized testing say the practice puts low-income, Black, and Latino/a students at an even greater disadvantage in the college admissions process. Socioeconomic status is strongly correlated to test scores, which suggests that the SAT and ACT act as barriers to social mobility.

According to data from the College Board — the organization that administers the SAT — SAT scores are highest for white and Asian students and test-takers whose families make over $200,000 per year. Scores are lowest for Black, Native American, and Latino/a students, as well as for test-takers whose families make less than $20,000.

In early 2019, the College Board announced it would add an "adversity score" to test-takers' SAT reports. Intended to account for educational and socioeconomic hardships, such as high crime rates and poverty levels in students' neighborhoods, the idea was ultimately scrapped after receiving harsh criticism.

While SAT scores are strongly linked to income and race, they're also solid predictors of college success. A report on UC students found that "a student admitted with a low SAT score is between two and five times more likely to drop out after one year, and up to three times less likely to complete their degree compared to a student with a high score."

 

[marvin martian]

Defining Racism Beyond its Dictionary Meaning​

By Nicki Lisa Cole, Ph.D.​

Updated July 14, 2019

Racism refers to a variety of practices, beliefs, social relations, and phenomena that work to reproduce a racial hierarchy and social structure that yield superiority, power, and privilege for some, and discrimination and oppression for others. It can take several forms, including representational, ideological, discursive, interactional, institutional, structural, and systemic.

Racism exists when ideas and assumptions about racial categories are used to justify and reproduce a racial hierarchy and racially structured society that unjustly limits access to resources, rights, and privileges on the basis of race. Racism also occurs when this kind of unjust social structure is produced by the failure to account for race and its historical and contemporary roles in society.

Contrary to a dictionary definition, racism, as defined based on social science research and theory, is about much more than race-based prejudice—it exists when an imbalance in power and social status is generated by how we understand and act upon race.

The Social Science Definition of Racism

Racism is a system of power in which some are prevented from accessing rights and resources on the basis of race while others are given privileges.

www.thoughtco.com

So lets look at some truths.

People will say that everybody is racist or can have racist thoughts. This comment has been used by some to dissmiss the continuing practice of racism by law and policy in America. So while everybody can have racist thoughts not everybody codified such thought into law and policy. Only one group did that, whites. Now is this racist or truth? To say this does not mean all whites are blamed for this, but we have allowed some low lifes to hijack the conversation and they have conflated any comment reflecting upon racism into a racial attack on everybody white who has ever lived.

When the topic of race is presented we get the not all whites comment being hollered generally from the right. The problem with that diversion is that we do not have the name of every white person responsible for acts of racism or the implementation of racist law or policy by federal, state and local governments, courts or private businesses. While all whites have not practiced racism, the system was created to provide racial preference to all whites. While all whites are not racists, there is a subculture in the white community that is.

This is reality. Now you can name all the black racists you want but there ain't no black Paul Gosars, Margaret Greenes, Madison Cawthorns or Kris Kobachs. You do not see one member of the Nation of Islam making laws. There was no member of the NBPP who served as Obamas top advisor.

So let's be real about this and face the truth.

Racism is YOU voting for the guy who said he doesn't want his children to grow up in a "racial jungle" with black people.

 

[MarathonMike]

westwall My wife is a professor at Universitty of Arizona where they have DROPPED the GRE requirement for all grad students because it was unfairly biased against minority applicants. Most state universities are doing the same.

 

[westwall]

You're really not getting this are you? It's not a matter of PRIMARILY lowering standards to accept black students, Its a matter of UNIVERSALLY LOWERING standards to AVOID charges of racism..

However, the EVALUATION of college applications HAS CHANGED almost universally at EVERY University.. I didn't want to go to the RACE card here, but here we go..

NCAA proposes to remove minimum test scores

An NCAA task force recommended on Friday that incoming freshmen in Division I and II sports should no longer be required to meet minimum scores on standardized tests for initial eligibility.

www.espn.com

NCAA task force recommends removing minimum standardized test scores in effort to advance racial equity​

Oct 15, 2021

An NCAA task force recommended on Friday that incoming freshmen in Division I and II sports should no longer be required to meet minimum scores on standardized tests for initial eligibility.
The recommendation was made by the NCAA Standardized Test Score Task Force, which was formed as part of the NCAA's eight-point plan to advance racial equity. The Division I Committee on Academics and Division II Academic Requirements Committee will consider the recommendation at their next scheduled meetings in February. Changes to initial-eligibility requirements would also have to be reviewed and made through each division's legislative process.

The Future of College Entrance Exams | BestColleges

After temporarily dropping SAT/ACT requirements due to COVID-19, some schools, including the University of California, are making the changes permanent.

www.bestcolleges.com

A growing number of colleges will omit SAT and ACT testing from admission requirements. At the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, many institutions adopted a test-optional policy. Now, several colleges, including the large University of California system, plan to remove ACT and SAT scores from consideration in all admission and financial aid decisions.

Now, in response to long-standing criticism of standardized testing, the UC system is making the change permanent. UC's decision comes as part of a legal settlement with students and advocacy groups who argue that standardized tests place an unfair disadvantage on already disadvantaged students.

More schools are following suit. A coalition of colleges in Washington state plan to go test-optional. The City University of New York won't require prospective students to take the SAT or ACT to be admitted through spring 2023. And the governor of Colorado just signed a law that prohibits public colleges and universities in the state from considering SAT/ACT scores for incoming first-year students.


Critics of standardized testing say the practice puts low-income, Black, and Latino/a students at an even greater disadvantage in the college admissions process. Socioeconomic status is strongly correlated to test scores, which suggests that the SAT and ACT act as barriers to social mobility.

According to data from the College Board — the organization that administers the SAT — SAT scores are highest for white and Asian students and test-takers whose families make over $200,000 per year. Scores are lowest for Black, Native American, and Latino/a students, as well as for test-takers whose families make less than $20,000.

In early 2019, the College Board announced it would add an "adversity score" to test-takers' SAT reports. Intended to account for educational and socioeconomic hardships, such as high crime rates and poverty levels in students' neighborhoods, the idea was ultimately scrapped after receiving harsh criticism.

While SAT scores are strongly linked to income and race, they're also solid predictors of college success. A report on UC students found that "a student admitted with a low SAT score is between two and five times more likely to drop out after one year, and up to three times less likely to complete their degree compared to a student with a high score."

Well, you've done it now!

Where is the little creep going to run too now?