What is "Fair" Public School Funding?

[Unkotare]

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The music and art kids 'stick together' and bond with each others, just like the jocks, prom queens and druggies.
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It's not the 1980s anymore. Lots of different kids with different interests can (and very often are) friends. The Breakfast Club was a long time ago.

 

[Unkotare]

But true.
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But not true. Think about it for a minute if you don't have the experience to actually know.

 

[Seymour Flops]

One need not be literate in any language to buy books in that language and set aside a time for kids to read them.

arrogant, presumptuous ignorance.

But true.

But not true. Think about it for a minute if you don't have the experience to actually know.

I did and I give up.

Why is it not true that an iliterate person can buy books in any language and provide them to their kids?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The U.S. spends a lot on education, more than Canada, Germany, France, Japan. I don’t think the problem is lack of money. The problem is American education is suffocated by the weight of a massive bloated corrupt inefficient bureaucratic monopoly. There’s no accountability. We desperately need reform, especially school choice.

Education resources - Education spending - OECD Data

Find, compare and share OECD data by indicator.

data.oecd.org

National School Choice Awareness Foundation

As a nonprofit organization, we raise broad national awareness of school choice so that more parents can access effective education options for their children.

schoolchoiceawareness.org

"School choice" isn't really much of a thing. "School choice" in the US is used by conservatives to try and take money out of the system, nothing more.
The UK has "school choice", parents can choose which school to send their kids to.

However there are only a certain amount of schools. A school isn't something that can open in a short time. You need the building, you need the staff etc.
So in the UK often is the case where the school ends up choosing the students, and most kids have a choice of one or two schools maximum.

 

[Unkotare]

I did and I give up.

Why is it not true that an iliterate [sic] person can buy books in any language and provide them to their kids?

A 'what' kind of person? Come on, you can get this one...

 

[Thunderbird]

"School choice" isn't really much of a thing. "School choice" in the US is used by conservatives to try and take money out of the system, nothing more.
The UK has "school choice", parents can choose which school to send their kids to.

However there are only a certain amount of schools. A school isn't something that can open in a short time. You need the building, you need the staff etc.
So in the UK often is the case where the school ends up choosing the students, and most kids have a choice of one or two schools maximum.

The only money taken “out of the system” is money taken away from bad schools. Good schools have nothing to fear from school choice.

Here Are 10 Reasons School Choice Is Winning

School choice is a growing movement, one that is already lifting thousands of kids across America. The results are tangible. And states are leading the way, giving parents more options in their children’s education than ever before. Here are 10 of the most promising benefits of school choice. 1...

www.heritage.org

Why would anyone want to disempower students and parents and empower bloated self-interested dreary brain-dead bureaucrats?

3 Reasons to Support School Choice

School choice enables students, including the poorest kids, to achieve more than they could have in conventional public schools.

fee.org

 

[frigidweirdo]

The only money taken “out of the system” is money taken away from bad schools. Good schools have nothing to fear from school choice.

Here Are 10 Reasons School Choice Is Winning

School choice is a growing movement, one that is already lifting thousands of kids across America. The results are tangible. And states are leading the way, giving parents more options in their children’s education than ever before. Here are 10 of the most promising benefits of school choice. 1...

www.heritage.org

Why would anyone want to disempower students and parents and empower bloated self-interested dreary brain-dead bureaucrats?

3 Reasons to Support School Choice

School choice enables students, including the poorest kids, to achieve more than they could have in conventional public schools.

fee.org

No, I totally disagree with you.

It's about capacity. Say for example we have an area with 1,000 kids and there are three schools with a capacity each of 400 kids. One school is excellent, one school is okay and one school is awful.

What happens with choice? The excellent school gets to pick which students it takes in. All the good parents want to send their kids to this school. So they get the best, or the richest students. Perhaps the school demands people pay some money to go to that school. So "choice" here is based around ability to pay. Or it's based around the choice of the school.

Imagine a kid who lives right next door to this school but either his parents can't pay or he doesn't get the grades to go. So he has to trek somewhere else to go to school.

Then the okay school will get its fill of students. 800 kids going to these two schools and then the rubbish school has 200 kids. It can't afford to operate with a half school so they close it down. Where do the other 200 kids go?

The reality is in the UK where there is CHOICE, schools are limited in how they do things. However what happens in the UK, because the UK is less crazy than the US when it comes to politics (and education) is that teachers are trained to a high level and they have inspectors who give grades to schools. They're trying to get principles (head teachers) who know their thing and getting them to be in charge of various schools so that there can be standards across the board.

In the US there are ghettos. With such ghettos you end up with lots souls who go into school not seeing the point and because funding is due to the local housing tax conditions, there probably isn't much point. This doesn't happen in the UK.

As for choice from those who have actually done it, it doesn't really work as conservatives are trying to make out.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30162742

"School Choice in Chile: Is It Class or the Classroom?"

By "class" they mean, upper class.

"Based on this evidence, we argue that unfettered choice may reduce the pressure on schools to improve their performance and could potentially increase stratification."

We could look at universities. Choice is immense in universities in both the UK and the US. And people end up choosing universities, not based on how good the university is at teaching students, but at how well they market themselves.

The UK has a ranking system:

University League Tables 2024

Our league tables rank the best universities in the UK, overall and in 74 subject areas

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk

There's also a world ranking system

World University Rankings

The Times Higher Education World University Rankings, founded in 2004, is a vital resource that provides the definitive list of the world's best universities.

www.timeshighereducation.com

This is how universities go about telling ignorant kids and ignorant parents about how good a university is. They market themselves, the ranking system is a marketing tool, especially in the US. People don't know what they want. You'd have to go to two or three universities to be able to compare, and these kids have never been to one, obviously.

Schools for younger kids will be the same. I've worked in private education and I've seen some horrendous things.

 

[SweetSue92]

Nothing wrong with learning about Art or Music if that interests you……just not worth wasting valuable educational dollars on it.
If you are able to soak public money to support yourself…..good for you

Is your total lack of support for arts education IN SCHOOL because you are a wormy troll

OR

Because you are not supporting Democrat talking points?

Pick just one.

 

[SweetSue92]

It has long been a principle of education that the arts and sports be included in the education of youth. It makes them more healthy, and more intellectually involved than if we only taught them reading, math, science and social studies.

Public school has been a slow-motion train wreck since the seventies, but de-funding Choir isn't gonna fix them.

He knows this.

He stepped on a rake trying to troll me.

 

[SweetSue92]

I support the music and art programs.
Not all kids are athletes, and many of the 'music' and 'art' students NEED these classes.
The music and art kids 'stick together' and bond with each others, just like the jocks, prom queens and druggies.

Band for example, is taught one specific period so these band students often have similar daily schedules. Then these same band kids get grouped into the same math period. This one math period, filled with majority of band students, is OFTEN the best, most productive, math class of the day.

This is NOT an absolute, but it is pretty much true.

That's just one reason the arts in schools are important, and you are correct. There are so many more.

(I'm disturbed that you taught high school and label kids "jocks, prom queens and druggies"....but whatever)

Over to you rightwinger

 

[SweetSue92]

Nothing wrong with learning about Art or Music if that interests you……just not worth wasting valuable educational dollars on it.
If you are able to soak public money to support yourself…..good for you

So by your own words, RW---when did you become Republican?

Music adds nothing to education
Reading, riting, rithmatic and FOOTBALL

That is Republican education

Get rid of the Department of Education altogether...

Remove the DOE and you remove the Federal dollars and then the states can stop Sending it to the Feds so that the Feds can just send back less States don’t send money to the Feds The American taxpayer does Ok, in the end it is the same. We the people send tax dollars to fund The Ed, some of...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[SweetSue92]

I wouldn’t call what you do a profession

What real teachers do is a profession. Teaching valuable life skills is a profession.

You are teaching a hobby

That you would denigrate Teachers who teach English as a Second Language while defending Art and Music education is laughable.

SO when did you have your change of heart, RW? Are you full on donating to the Republican Party now?

First thing conservatives cut is the music program

Get rid of the Department of Education altogether...

Remove the DOE and you remove the Federal dollars and then the states can stop Sending it to the Feds so that the Feds can just send back less States don’t send money to the Feds The American taxpayer does Ok, in the end it is the same. We the people send tax dollars to fund The Ed, some of...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes, education of their children is very important to immigrants

Are you just a complete cheapskate, worried about "your tax money"? That would be a typical liberal, wouldn't it?
You really stepped on a rake, didn't you? You should just register as a Republican straight up, RW. You check all the boxes. Railing on about "your tax dollars" and now wanting to cut arts education--just as Republicans do AS YOU ADMITTED

How Much Should A Teacher Get Paid?

In the U.S. we currently spend over $11K per pupil for K-12 public education. With 30 kids in a class, that is over $300K per year. Where does the money go? In a competitive marketplace which eliminated the excessive overhead structure, teacher pay could be higher with much lower spending...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[rightwinger]

Are you just a complete cheapskate, worried about "your tax money"? That would be a typical liberal, wouldn't it?
You really stepped on a rake, didn't you? You should just register as a Republican straight up, RW. You check all the boxes. Railing on about "your tax dollars" and now wanting to cut arts education--just as Republicans do AS YOU ADMITTED

How Much Should A Teacher Get Paid?

In the U.S. we currently spend over $11K per pupil for K-12 public education. With 30 kids in a class, that is over $300K per year. Where does the money go? In a competitive marketplace which eliminated the excessive overhead structure, teacher pay could be higher with much lower spending...

www.usmessageboard.com

I support paying Teachers competitive wages. In education, you get what you pay for.
I just don’t believe you need an education degree to teach music or art. I also don’t believe they belong in the mainstream curriculum

 

[rightwinger]

That's just one reason the arts in schools are important, and you are correct. There are so many more.

(I'm disturbed that you taught high school and label kids "jocks, prom queens and druggies"....but whatever)

Over to you rightwinger

No, I don’t believe we should have curriculum just so kids can form cliques.
I have no problem with offering art or music as after school clubs

 

[Thunderbird]

No, I totally disagree with you.

It's about capacity. Say for example we have an area with 1,000 kids and there are three schools with a capacity each of 400 kids. One school is excellent, one school is okay and one school is awful.

What happens with choice? The excellent school gets to pick which students it takes in. All the good parents want to send their kids to this school. So they get the best, or the richest students. Perhaps the school demands people pay some money to go to that school. So "choice" here is based around ability to pay. Or it's based around the choice of the school.

Imagine a kid who lives right next door to this school but either his parents can't pay or he doesn't get the grades to go. So he has to trek somewhere else to go to school.

Then the okay school will get its fill of students. 800 kids going to these two schools and then the rubbish school has 200 kids. It can't afford to operate with a half school so they close it down. Where do the other 200 kids go?

The reality is in the UK where there is CHOICE, schools are limited in how they do things. However what happens in the UK, because the UK is less crazy than the US when it comes to politics (and education) is that teachers are trained to a high level and they have inspectors who give grades to schools. They're trying to get principles (head teachers) who know their thing and getting them to be in charge of various schools so that there can be standards across the board.

In the US there are ghettos. With such ghettos you end up with lots souls who go into school not seeing the point and because funding is due to the local housing tax conditions, there probably isn't much point. This doesn't happen in the UK.

As for choice from those who have actually done it, it doesn't really work as conservatives are trying to make out.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30162742

"School Choice in Chile: Is It Class or the Classroom?"

By "class" they mean, upper class.

"Based on this evidence, we argue that unfettered choice may reduce the pressure on schools to improve their performance and could potentially increase stratification."

We could look at universities. Choice is immense in universities in both the UK and the US. And people end up choosing universities, not based on how good the university is at teaching students, but at how well they market themselves.

The UK has a ranking system:

University League Tables 2024

Our league tables rank the best universities in the UK, overall and in 74 subject areas

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk

There's also a world ranking system

World University Rankings

The Times Higher Education World University Rankings, founded in 2004, is a vital resource that provides the definitive list of the world's best universities.

www.timeshighereducation.com

This is how universities go about telling ignorant kids and ignorant parents about how good a university is. They market themselves, the ranking system is a marketing tool, especially in the US. People don't know what they want. You'd have to go to two or three universities to be able to compare, and these kids have never been to one, obviously.

Schools for younger kids will be the same. I've worked in private education and I've seen some horrendous things.

Government schools are sometimes de facto segregated.

https://www.kqed.org/lowdown/30098/why-have-americas-public-schools-gotten-more-racially-segregated#:~:text="These maps show that America’s public schools are,other students of color," the Urban Institute notes.

Ghetto Britain: Entire districts segregated

Entire districts of British cities are becoming racially segregated as white populations move out and the proportion of ethnic minorities increases, a major report said yesterday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Regarding your thought experiment, don’t you think if a bad school closed down another school would open and try to do a better job, thus acquiring all that tuition? Or maybe the good schools would expand.

 

[Winco]

(I'm disturbed that you taught high school and label kids "jocks, prom queens and druggies"....but whatever)

As you post in LGBTQ threads, you get 'disturbed' by my label of "Jocks".

 

[2aguy]

Josh Shapiro supports overhaul of school funding in PA

Democratic gubernatorial candidate Josh Shapiro has backed a high-profile lawsuit calling for an overhaul of Pennsylvania’s school funding system.

philadelphia.chalkbeat.org

In Pennsylvania, the bulk of public school funding is raised at the local (school district) level through real estate taxes. A small percentage comes from the Feds, and about 35-40% comes from the State.

Perversities abound. When measuring funding on a per-student basis, the big cities with the (statistically) worst academics get the most money, second come the affluent suburbs with high real estate values, and third come rural districts with the highest real estate tax rates, due to low population density. Academically, the big cities do have various forms of "scholar" programs that facilitate SOME urban students getting an education that rivals a good private school, but as the cancer of DEI attacks them, their excellence is in serious danger.

In parallel with funding issues and issues of "equity" is a general movement in Academe to de-emphasize standardized testing, the results of which perennially embarrass both POC communities and public school teachers as a group. So any attempt to measure whether funding initiatives are succeeding in raising up the "worst" districts and schools is hampered by reluctant to quantitatively measure the academic status quo, over time.

So two questions are begged, so to speak. What if funding were "normalized" throughout the State, with every district spending the same amount per pupil (with an adjustment for the lowest population-density districts)? Would the Leftists consider that "fair," and what would that do to/for educational "outcomes"?

[Nothing].

The second question is, if not per-student spending, what other criterion could be used to give every student in the State school system a reasonably equal education - whatever that means?

[I haven't a clue].

One suspects that Leftist politico's would likely just like to throw more and more money to underperforming districts, while ignoring the fact that it doesn't do any good. But that's just my own prejudices coming out.

Here are some numbers:

U.S. Public Education Spending Statistics [2022]: per Pupil + Total

Find out how much the U.S. spends on public education and how the costs break down per student, by state and by level of government.

educationdata.org

So what do you think? What spending principles would result in the "fairest" allocation of funds to the largest number of public school students?

Easy.....the money attaches to the child, whatever they set that at, and the child can go to any public school in the state.....that is the biggest step in fixing public schools.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Yes, education of their children is very important to immigrants

Not all immigrants, unfortunately. Many of the immigrants from Latin America are satisfied that they are "successful" just by being allowed to stay in this country. Often, the parents have little interest and whether their kids are completing assignments or studying for tests.

In the army we used to say that foreign women wanted to marry soldiers in order to go to the land of the big px. For Latin American Immigration, it seems that it is the land of the convenience store they are interested in.

 

[Unkotare]

Not all immigrants, unfortunately. Many of the immigrants from Latin America are satisfied that they are "successful" just by being allowed to stay in this country. Often, the parents have little interest and whether their kids are completing assignments or studying for tests.
...

This is not true.