We Have the Right to Assemble and Freedom of Religion - Unlawful Arrest of Preacher

[Hutch Starskey]

Straw man. I never said the church tried to shut down the government, so arguing against a point I didn't make is a dodge.

No, this is a Dodge. (Though actually, it's some sort of bizarre Alfa_Romeo/Fiat/Mercedes_Benz/Hyundai/Chrysler mongrel.)

View attachment 317970

I said the church deliberately provoked a conflict, and will expand that by saying it's a conflict that never needed to exist at all. Under the circumstances, I don't think the shutdown was illegal at all, although that's very obviously a question the courts will have to weigh in on.

No, it was government that provoked this fight, by illegally using a manufactured crisis as an excuse to blatantly violate the Constitution.

So Donald Trump is using this to blatantly violate the Constitution?

States are making their own decisions on these lockdowns. Here in the Tremendous Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, religious institutions are not subject to the current house arrest.

States are making their own decisions on these lockdowns. Here in the Tremendous Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, religious institutions are not subject to the current house arrest.

Derp....

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

"Residents are limited to leaving their homes for tasks "essential to maintain health and safety" for themselves or family members, including taking care of pets, and obtaining medical supplies or visiting health care professionals. Wolf has thus far relied on voluntary compliance rather than actively enforcing the order.

"At this time, law enforcement will be focused on ensuring that residents are aware of the order and informing the public of social distancing practices rather than enforcement," the governor's office said in a statement Tuesday. "To report a noncompliant business, contact your local law enforcement agency's non-emergency number or the nearest Pennsylvania State Police station."

 

[Gracie]

That's ridiculous. I have a cousin who is a minister and he is doing remote sermons that his congregation can view.

Some are even taking over their local drive-in theaters. Or holding church services in their parking lots while everyone sits in their cars and listens on the radio.

that's a damn good idea!

 

[Syriusly]

Straw man. I never said the church tried to shut down the government, so arguing against a point I didn't make is a dodge.

No, this is a Dodge. (Though actually, it's some sort of bizarre Alfa_Romeo/Fiat/Mercedes_Benz/Hyundai/Chrysler mongrel.)

View attachment 317970

I said the church deliberately provoked a conflict, and will expand that by saying it's a conflict that never needed to exist at all. Under the circumstances, I don't think the shutdown was illegal at all, although that's very obviously a question the courts will have to weigh in on.

No, it was government that provoked this fight, by illegally using a manufactured crisis as an excuse to blatantly violate the Constitution.

So Donald Trump is using this to blatantly violate the Constitution?

States are making their own decisions on these lockdowns. Here in the Tremendous Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, religious institutions are not subject to the current house arrest.

I notice how you carefully avoided addressing whether Trump is violating the Constitution......

'house arrest'? Hmmmm lets look at what Pennsylvania is doing- I frankly don't know

Guide: Responding to COVID-19 in Pennsylvania

All Pennsylvanians have an important role to play in stopping the spread of COVID-19 and saving lives. Here are resources to help you do your part.

www.pa.gov

Allowable Individual Activities
Individuals may leave their residence ONLY to perform any of the following allowable individual
activities and allowable essential travel.

• Tasks essential to maintain health and safety, or the health and safety of their family or household members (including, but not limited to, pets), such as obtaining medicine or medical supplies, visiting a health care professional, or obtaining supplies they need to work from home.
• Getting necessary services or supplies for themselves or their family or household members, or to
  deliver those services or supplies to others, such as getting food and household consumer
  products, pet food, and supplies necessary to maintain the safety, sanitation, and essential
  operation of residences. This includes volunteer efforts to distribute meals and other life-sustaining services to those in need.
• Engaging in outdoor activity, such as walking, hiking or running if they maintain social distancing.
• To perform work providing essential products and services at a life-sustaining business (see below for details about life-sustaining business activities).
• To care for a family member or pet in another household.

Are people going to be cited for leaving their homes?
No. People will not be cited for leaving their homes.
Additionally, people are not required to carry written authorization to travel for the purposes allowed under the order.

Hmm doesn't sound like house arrest to me.....

States are making their own decisions- and the pastor that was arrested violated his states restrictions.

 

[Gracie]

The OP raised an issue worth discussing but has shot his own thread in the foot by making stupid partisan attacks- such as blaming Democrats for what a Republican has done.

LOL! Can you not see what you just said???

 

[Syriusly]

The OP raised an issue worth discussing but has shot his own thread in the foot by making stupid partisan attacks- such as blaming Democrats for what a Republican has done.

LOL! Can you not see what you just said???

I pointed out that the Original poster raised an issue worth discussing- freedom of religion versus the governments role to protect public health- but then sought to derail his own thread with a series of partisan attacks- in this specific case post after post blaming Democrats for what a Republican governor has done.

 

[Gracie]

 

[Syriusly]

This is a great moment for televangelists.

Not every American has access to computers to attend virtual services, but almost every American has a TV and can attend televangelist services.

 

[hjmick]

Anyone who knows anything about this scumbag, Rodney Howard-Brown, knows he should be committed just as much as he should be arrested. And not for staying open during this pandemic so he could hustle more money out of his sheep. He's a fucking loon and a scam artist, not a pastor.

 

[Blues Man]

Looks like some of our government officials haven't read the Constitution.

---Pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was charged with misdemeanor counts of unlawful assembly---

Florida megachurch pastor arrested for holding services despite health order

A Florida pastor was arrested on Monday for operating a Tampa megachurch in violation of a public health order prohibiting large gatherings in place to stem the spread of the coronavirus. &nbs…

thehill.com

It's unconstitutional and won't take many trips up the court to be proven so

Would you want your spouse, child or grandchildren exposed to a church attendee who may have been exposed? Try finding a jury that would all agree that this pastor was within his Constitutional rights to do so

Well he was aided and abetted by a whole lot of stupid people

And you can't cure stupid

 

[SweetSue92]

Looks like some of our government officials haven't read the Constitution.

---Pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was charged with misdemeanor counts of unlawful assembly---

Florida megachurch pastor arrested for holding services despite health order

A Florida pastor was arrested on Monday for operating a Tampa megachurch in violation of a public health order prohibiting large gatherings in place to stem the spread of the coronavirus. &nbs…

thehill.com

There are exceptions.

Will they make exceptions for the Radical Muslims in a few weeks when their annual Ramadam bullshit comes down?

Of course the exceptions don't apply to Muslims. Why that would be wacist.

Oh they never do, never. Muslims are brown-skinned, they're "diverse" and wear cool clothing.

That's all it takes for most simpleton Leftists to drool all over them.

Did you actually just sit on this board and post "Muslims are brown-skinned"????

Wait wait --- and then immediately follow that sweeping non sequitur generalization with "they're diverse"??

Holy SHIT that just took over first place for stupidest post in recent memory.
Oh no, I gotta bookmark this shit.

You entirely missed that I'm citing reasons WHY BRAIN-DEAD LEFTIST LOVE MUSLIMS but go ahead Pogo knock yourself out

 

[Cecilie1200]

Straw man. I never said the church tried to shut down the government, so arguing against a point I didn't make is a dodge.

No, this is a Dodge. (Though actually, it's some sort of bizarre Alfa_Romeo/Fiat/Mercedes_Benz/Hyundai/Chrysler mongrel.)

View attachment 317970

I said the church deliberately provoked a conflict, and will expand that by saying it's a conflict that never needed to exist at all. Under the circumstances, I don't think the shutdown was illegal at all, although that's very obviously a question the courts will have to weigh in on.

No, it was government that provoked this fight, by illegally using a manufactured crisis as an excuse to blatantly violate the Constitution.

No, I don't agree with the premise that anything the government does that contradicts people's desire to do whatever they please is automatically "government oppression", nor - as I have already said - do I accept in any way the premise that this is a "manufactured crisis" as a settled debate parameter.

This is a genuine public health problem, the government has a legitimate interest in and right to temporarily suspend large gatherings to protect public health, and no right is absolute.

The government set a reasonable and lawful restriction, and the church deliberately violated it for their own sense of self-righteousness and desire to feel like a "persecuted minority". I'm neither impressed nor sympathetic.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The pastors can have the patience of Job I guess, but some may have doubts this will ever end.

Once government seizes any power, it does not easily give it up again.

Now, that IS true, and I would not for the world discourage eternal vigilance on this subject or this debate on the topic. For all that I very much disagree with what this church did and with the people defending them, I would be deeply troubled if no one was debating this at all and everyone was just sanguinely accepting the pastor's arrest with no discussion at all.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Also, given that the church deliberately provoked this conflict, it definitely doesn't meet the definition of "persecution", and the pastor and his attendees are no kind of "heroes" or "martyrs".

It wasn't the church that tried to illegally shut down the government. It was the government that tried to illegally shut down the church, in blatant and inexcusable violation of the First Amendment. It was government that manufactured a fake crisis, and then tried to use it as an excuse to trash the Constitution.

Congregating at the church was not the only option. They could have performed their services online.

Not everyone has online access you know.

Computers are limited ,they have not yet found a way to deliver smell waves, so that the congregants can smell the incense. And how will snake handling denominations going to reproduce that experience online

People can burn their own incense and handle their own snakes.

Not necessarily. A lot of landlords prohibit both practices in rental properties. I suppose if the continued ban on Evictions continues indefinitely it might be possible.

Why would those people rent an apartment where they're not free to practice their religion? Sounds like they're not very committed.

Neither incense-burning nor snake-handling are typically part of individual daily devotions. They're both part of group rituals.

But I admire your consistency in never, ever, in any way allowing yourself to even try to understand people you don't agree with.

 

[SweetSue92]

Also, given that the church deliberately provoked this conflict, it definitely doesn't meet the definition of "persecution", and the pastor and his attendees are no kind of "heroes" or "martyrs".

It wasn't the church that tried to illegally shut down the government. It was the government that tried to illegally shut down the church, in blatant and inexcusable violation of the First Amendment. It was government that manufactured a fake crisis, and then tried to use it as an excuse to trash the Constitution.

Congregating at the church was not the only option. They could have performed their services online.

Other churches have found a lot of ways to maintain the fellowship and community that is the purpose of attending church, many of them quite creative.

I think anyone who believes that physical presence in a building with other people once a week (or more) regardless of any other considerations is what worshipping God is all about is doing it wrong and missing the entire point of the exercise.

But I don't think the point at all is what we think about how people exercise their religious faith. It's what THEY think and believe. My church is meeting virtually and I personally think that's the right call. But I am not in the position to put that on others' consciences. That's the first point.

My second point, and an important one, is that this going on day after week after possibly, month. A violation of all kinds of individual rights as outlined in the Bill of Rights. For "safety", for "public health". Today it's a virus; next year it's Tornado, Flood and Severe Thunderstorm Warnings. Can't be out on the roads or in stores because you put such and such lives at risk, yadda yadda. Below will be the nincompoop chatterers saying "That's ridiculous" but it's not at all.

Give totalitarians an inch and they will always take 100 miles, every time.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why do you seem to think that Christians should be exempt from the rules that apply to everyone else?

Government in America is supposed to keep their hands off of Religion. That's the 1st Amendment.

Government is also supposed to protect the public's safetly. When Constitutional provisions collide, government has to pick one over the other. In this case, they chose public safety over staying out of religion, in part, since those religious folks can find alternate methods to practice their faith without risking the public's safety.

I don't think they're really getting involved in anyone's religion in this case. They're not trying to tell anyone what they can believe, or even how they can practice what they believe. They're just asking them to practice their beliefs alone or in much smaller groups.

 

[SweetSue92]

Why do you seem to think that Christians should be exempt from the rules that apply to everyone else?

Government in America is supposed to keep their hands off of Religion. That's the 1st Amendment.

Government is also supposed to protect the public's safetly. When Constitutional provisions collide, government has to pick one over the other. In this case, they chose public safety over staying out of religion, in part, since those religious folks can find alternate methods to practice their faith without risking the public's safety.

And to address the Constitution aspects of it- government can only ignore constitutional protections for reasons that narrowly constructed for valid reasons- for example- the government can tell a church it can only have 100 people in the building because of fire regulations- this is an acceptable restriction on the right to assemble because there is a clear public safety reason for it- this is exactly the same.

Now if the government said that it was only closing churches, or only closing houses of worship- and ignoring theaters and stadiums- then there would be a real constitutional issue.

Um no. There are specific Constitutional issues. Bill of Rights

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why do you seem to think that Christians should be exempt from the rules that apply to everyone else?

Government in America is supposed to keep their hands off of Religion. That's the 1st Amendment.

Government is also supposed to protect the public's safetly. When Constitutional provisions collide, government has to pick one over the other. In this case, they chose public safety over staying out of religion, in part, since those religious folks can find alternate methods to practice their faith without risking the public's safety.

And to address the Constitution aspects of it- government can only ignore constitutional protections for reasons that narrowly constructed for valid reasons- for example- the government can tell a church it can only have 100 people in the building because of fire regulations- this is an acceptable restriction on the right to assemble because there is a clear public safety reason for it- this is exactly the same.

Now if the government said that it was only closing churches, or only closing houses of worship- and ignoring theaters and stadiums- then there would be a real constitutional issue.

Later on this month, the Jihadi Community celebrate Ramadam. Will the libs have the guts to tell them to cancel their event too?

What do they even do to celebrate Ramadan? Can't say I know much about the practice of Islam.

 

[SweetSue92]

Anyone who knows anything about this scumbag, Rodney Howard-Brown, knows he should be committed just as much as he should be arrested. And not for staying open during this pandemic so he could hustle more money out of his sheep. He's a fucking loon and a scam artist, not a pastor.

There are too many of those. But we are not arguing people. We are arguing principles of law, hello

 

[SweetSue92]

Why do you seem to think that Christians should be exempt from the rules that apply to everyone else?

Government in America is supposed to keep their hands off of Religion. That's the 1st Amendment.

Government is also supposed to protect the public's safetly. When Constitutional provisions collide, government has to pick one over the other. In this case, they chose public safety over staying out of religion, in part, since those religious folks can find alternate methods to practice their faith without risking the public's safety.

And to address the Constitution aspects of it- government can only ignore constitutional protections for reasons that narrowly constructed for valid reasons- for example- the government can tell a church it can only have 100 people in the building because of fire regulations- this is an acceptable restriction on the right to assemble because there is a clear public safety reason for it- this is exactly the same.

Now if the government said that it was only closing churches, or only closing houses of worship- and ignoring theaters and stadiums- then there would be a real constitutional issue.

Later on this month, the Jihadi Community celebrate Ramadam. Will the libs have the guts to tell them to cancel their event too?

What do they even do to celebrate Ramadan? Can't say I know much about the practice of Islam.

Worship is a big part of it and breaking fasts together, daily and at other points, I believe

These same yahoos all over the Christians in church would sing a WHOLE different tunes if it were Muslims being arrested for worshiping believe me

 

[MacTheKnife]

Coronavirus is being spread by folks who show no symptoms. That means the selfish Trump following morons are spreading their Trump virus to your grocery stores and everywhere else.

The last thing we need is to make this about politics....but that is what the liberals are trying their best to do.

This thing with the religious morons who have no common sense is not about poliltics or religion.....it is about stupidity vs. common sense.

After conversing with a few of these nutcases it is very obvious.....they are very confused and not very bright....rather sad actually but they must be held accountable for what they are doing....these crazy and stupid pastors who encourage these gathering should be given significant and mandatory jail sentences....I am sure that would put a stop to the nonsense real quick.