Zone1 We can learn more from the Cross of Christ than most people understand

[notmyfault2020]

Everyone knows Jesus suffered and died to pay the price for our sins.. a debt to God that had to be paid and only He could do that.

But there is more to be learned from His Cross..

Obviously there is a lot of suffering in the world

why does God allow it... everyone asks.

Well, I have prayed through many sufferings in my life.. couldn't begin to tell it all. And a thought occurs to me: If not for suffering, many people.. no, I say No one would pray. Think a bout it.. If everything is perfect all the time and no one can say that of course, why would anyone pray? But because things are so terribly imperfect, we reach out to God for intervention. So maybe God allows certain sufferings to get our attention? And there may be other reasons, probably are others.

So here is what I mean (partially)

When you look @ a Crucifix.. you can see yourself there.. and Christ with you. And one good thing that comes from your suffering (if you are Catholic), you will look at or imagine within your mind what Jesus went through and that is very, very .. um.. words fail.. uplifting? consoling? (etc)

 

[Meriweather]

Everyone knows Jesus suffered and died to pay the price for our sins..

Have you ever considered too much emphasis is placed on Jesus having to be punished for our sins?

Jesus never said this. He never said, "I have to be punished for the sins of the world."

Jesus' message is more along the lines of Sins are forgiven and that God's method is not to punish mankind for their sins but to redeem mankind. Think about it. God's grace. By definition does grace punish or does grace redeem?

I know Paul talked about Christ bearing our sins, but Paul also spoke of grace perhaps more than any other Apostle. Further Paul said little or nothing about Jesus dying for personal sins, rather Paul spoke of Jesus as being the reverse of Original Sin--the sin the first man and woman brought into the world--and instead spoke of redemption for the world following the sin of Adam and Eve.

Something to ponder.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Have you ever considered too much emphasis is placed on Jesus having to be punished for our sins?

Jesus never said this. He never said, "I have to be punished for the sins of the world."

Jesus' message is more along the lines of Sins are forgiven and that God's method is not to punish mankind for their sins but to redeem mankind. Think about it. God's grace. By definition does grace punish or does grace redeem?

I know Paul talked about Christ bearing our sins, but Paul also spoke of grace perhaps more than any other Apostle. Further Paul said little or nothing about Jesus dying for personal sins, rather Paul spoke of Jesus as being the reverse of Original Sin--the sin the first man and woman brought into the world--and instead spoke of redemption for the world following the sin of Adam and Eve.

Something to ponder.

I have no idea what you are really saying here. Are you saying I am totally off the rails for .. I dunno.. the first thing I said here?

when I fully u/stand or think I fully understand your point(s), I will respond. At this point I am in the dark more or less

 

[Meriweather]

Are you saying I am totally off the rails

Not at all. Your focus is the focus of almost all Christians--that we need to be punished for our sins and Jesus accepted the punishment for individual sins.

I am merely pointing out that I read Jesus' words (and Paul's) a bit differently. Jesus never outright said, "Every individual needs to be punished for all their sins. Rather than God punishing each individual, the Father agreed that I will be punished for the sins of all mankind."

Paul spoke of the sins of mankind, not the individual sins of each person. He simply noted that everyone sins.

Jesus words insisted that sins are forgiven (repentance for the forgiveness of sins) and God's plan is the redemption of mankind, not the punishment of mankind. Paul focused on grace, that by God's grace we now know sins are forgiven and that God has redeemed mankind. Remember Paul's comparison that Adam brought sin into the world, but Jesus brought redemption?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Not at all. Your focus is the focus of almost all Christians--that we need to be punished for our sins and Jesus accepted the punishment for individual sins.

I am merely pointing out that I read Jesus' words (and Paul's) a bit differently. Jesus never outright said, "Every individual needs to be punished for all their sins. Rather than God punishing each individual, the Father agreed that I will be punished for the sins of all mankind."

Paul spoke of the sins of mankind, not the individual sins of each person. He simply noted that everyone sins.

Jesus words insisted that sins are forgiven (repentance for the forgiveness of sins) and God's plan is the redemption of mankind, not the punishment of mankind. Paul focused on grace, that by God's grace we now know sins are forgiven and that God has redeemed mankind. Remember Paul's comparison that Adam brought sin into the world, but Jesus brought redemption?

I agree w/ some of this but the thought occurs to me that you have been novus ordo-ized or what have you

If you are saying God never punishes anyone but just.. i dunno.. writes off our sins because He knows we are going to do it anyhow..

I don't believe that one bit.. Please elaborate.. (I know from my own experiences that God allows our sins to punish us.. Show me the sin that does not punish us?)

 

[Meriweather]

I agree w/ some of this but the thought occurs to me that you have been novus ordo-ized or what have you

If you are saying God never punishes anyone but just.. i dunno.. writes off our sins because He knows we are going to do it anyhow..

I don't believe that one bit.. Please elaborate..

No, I haven't been "novus ordoized" or even a what have you.

I am merely saying that one day while reading a Gospel story, my attention was caught on Jesus telling someone of his own time, "Your sins are forgiven." I went through all the Gospel accounts and nowhere did Jesus use the the future tense that sins will/would be forgiven once he laid down his life. The Temple authorities of Jesus' time were on his case because he kept proclaiming sins are forgiven, not that they would be forgiven once he gave up his life.

The Temple authorities wanted Jesus to cease and desist with the proclamation that sins are forgiven. Then I began studying Paul. Over time, I realized Paul never announced anywhere to any individual that Jesus died for someone's personal sin.

Yes, Paul noted everyone sins, none can avoid sinning, but salvation/redemption is here upon us by the grace of God. While Adam brought sin to the world, Jesus, the new creation, brought the good news of redemption/salvation and that sins are forgiven. Jesus took that burden of sin being always upon mankind to the cross and replaced it with the news of redemption.

This is all in the Gospels and Paul's letters, but most people interpret it on a more individual level that Jesus died for their personal sins, that he took on punishment, not that his courage and determination to announce Good News despite deterrents that he simply let mankind remain in the idea they were trapped by sin.

Have you ever noticed our own individual sins usually come with their own built-in punishments that we suffer with in the here and now?

 

[ninja007]

you havent learned anything about the cross of Christ and Calvary. Youre still trying to earn your way to heaven.

 

[notmyfault2020]

No, I haven't been "novus ordoized" or even a what have you.

I am merely saying that one day while reading a Gospel story, my attention was caught on Jesus telling someone of his own time, "Your sins are forgiven." I went through all the Gospel accounts and nowhere did Jesus use the the future tense that sins will/would be forgiven once he laid down his life. The Temple authorities of Jesus' time were on his case because he kept proclaiming sins are forgiven, not that they would be forgiven once he gave up his life.

The Temple authorities wanted Jesus to cease and desist with the proclamation that sins are forgiven. Then I began studying Paul. Over time, I realized Paul never announced anywhere to any individual that Jesus died for someone's personal sin.

Yes, Paul noted everyone sins, none can avoid sinning, but salvation/redemption is here upon us by the grace of God. While Adam brought sin to the world, Jesus, the new creation, brought the good news of redemption/salvation and that sins are forgiven. Jesus took that burden of sin being always upon mankind to the cross and replaced it with the news of redemption.

This is all in the Gospels and Paul's letters, but most people interpret it on a more individual level that Jesus died for their personal sins, that he took on punishment, not that his courage and determination to announce Good News despite deterrents that he simply let mankind remain in the idea they were trapped by sin.

Have you ever noticed our own individual sins usually come with their own built-in punishments that we suffer with in the here and now?

I read the 2nd to the last comment twice and still don't get what u are saying.. could u elaborate?

Are you saying Jesus .. Well, I will just say what I myself believe based on my own experiences (the only thing no one can seriously argue with)

When I look at Jesus on the Cross or envision such when praying the rosary, I see and experience many things.. it would take all day to list them all. But one thing that comes to me is that what we see when we do this is.. Jesus, yes, but also what must be done to our sinful human "body" so that we can get into Heaven.. In a nutshell it needs to be crucified.. and of course Jesus can show us our own way of doing that.. which is His way but we have to cooperate.

I believe we have to suffer in a similar way as Jesus did to get into Heaven.. that is not becauseGod loves us to suffer but because we are so messed up by sin.. our own sin and the sin of those near us.. family, friends.. etc.. We don't always have t he first clue how un-Heaven-worthy we are..

I'll leave it at that for now (also please address highlighted in this post)

 

[notmyfault2020]

you havent learned anything about the cross of Christ and Calvary. Youre still trying to earn your way to heaven.

I'll consult the One who knows me, thank you

 

[Meriweather]

I believe we have to suffer in a similar way as Jesus did to get into Heaven.. that is not becauseGod loves us to suffer but because we are so messed up by sin.. our own sin and the sin of those near us.. family, friends.. etc.. We don't always have t he first clue how un-Heaven-worthy we are..

This is the part I choose to address from a different perspective.

Jesus came into the world at a time where people seemed to see others--and perhaps themselves--as a sinful people. Paul notes this more than Jesus ever did.

I give primary focus to the words Jesus spoke to his followers, not the words he spoke to his adversaries.

Jesus' message to the people was that God was not an entity to be feared because He was out to punish and destroy sin. Jesus spoke of God as Father, as Daddy, and of the Father's great love. God's work was not in punishing sin, but in forgiving sin. God's work was not in damnation and destruction, but in redemption and salvation. God's Kingdom, Jesus explained was at hand--i.e., that it was within the reach of everyone. Jesus also taught that this Kingdom, to be entered in the here and now, stretched into eternity--that it is the essence of eternal life which can be experienced in the here and now.

Paul followed this idea, explaining forgiveness of sin, redemption, and salvation is provided to all by the grace of God. No one has to earn it, all we have to do is embrace God's great gift.

Humans are not on the wrong-side of God, God is on the right side of humanity--a humanity that is loved, forgiven, and redeemed. We should live in this Kingdom. Today is not too soon. Today is not too late.

Jesus said he is the way. Believe in forgiveness and redemption--do not follow those who want to call us sinful and unworthy and make us pay one way or another for forgiveness. Or, to frighten us with damnation.

What I find interesting is that Jesus opened up the Way to everyone, and yet there are some claiming to follow Christ who say the Way is blocked for those who don't agree with certain ideas.

We are the forgiven, loved, and redeemed people of God. Let's live that life. Right now. It is the Way Jesus taught, the Way to which he devoted and gave his life.

 

[notmyfault2020]

This is the part I choose to address from a different perspective.

Jesus came into the world at a time where people seemed to see others--and perhaps themselves--as a sinful people. Paul notes this more than Jesus ever did.

I give primary focus to the words Jesus spoke to his followers, not the words he spoke to his adversaries.

Jesus' message to the people was that God was not an entity to be feared because He was out to punish and destroy sin. Jesus spoke of God as Father, as Daddy, and of the Father's great love. God's work was not in punishing sin, but in forgiving sin. God's work was not in damnation and destruction, but in redemption and salvation. God's Kingdom, Jesus explained was at hand--i.e., that it was within the reach of everyone. Jesus also taught that this Kingdom, to be entered in the here and now, stretched into eternity--that it is the essence of eternal life which can be experienced in the here and now.

Paul followed this idea, explaining forgiveness of sin, redemption, and salvation is provided to all by the grace of God. No one has to earn it, all we have to do is embrace God's great gift.

Humans are not on the wrong-side of God, God is on the right side of humanity--a humanity that is loved, forgiven, and redeemed. We should live in this Kingdom. Today is not too soon. Today is not too late.

I read this far.. will finish reading later

Please respond at least to highlighted. Thanks

You are forgetting something.. God does not "love" us as we humans understand love. thank God for that. He answers our prayers HIS way because He knows best.. often going against what we specificlly ask for. Tell me this has never happened to you?

The problem I have with pretty much your whole post here is.. I have seen this over and over in life: the people who love Jesus and obey him.. they suffer a lot in many different ways. The evil ones.. esp the ones "running things".. who promote baby killing seem to have every blessing known to man.. So how is that fair? So everyone asks Why does God allow the good people to suffer.. when He is supposed tobe love itself? Well, I won't claim to have the absolutely perfect answer tothat but what I have learned about God is that He does not answer certain of my prayers or certainly not as-prayed.. so obviously.. I mean, some would conclude.. as I have also.. that God does not love me as much as.. I dunno... the law-breaking fake president, for example. He has all the goodies life has to offer while I do not (long stories).

He is working to destroy this country

I am doing the opposite.

But God seems to let a lot of injustices go in THIS life.. I fear for those in mortal sin in the next life.. I pray for them.. (another prayer not answered? I dont know)

so anyway.. your post does not even address this kind of thing. I keep thinking of St LaBre who "trusted God" but lived all his life in very "needy" circumstances. Today, we see him as being "mentally ill" which I say is a term we've adopted (not me but most americans?) for thos who do not think like we do.. who don't live like everyone else

anyway, I will leave things at that for now.. I still say you have been novus ordo-ized because the NO Church threw out a lot of the references to Hell and Purgatory (suffering) when they ditched the Traditional Faith at Vatican II.

 

[Meriweather]

You are forgetting something.. God does not "love" us as we humans understand love. thank God for that. He answers our prayers HIS way because He knows best.. often going against what we specificlly ask for. Tell me this has never happened to you?

Try making two lists: The first list is of prayers not answered. The second list is of prayers that were answered. Anything jump out at you from both or either list?

My first list (mainly) were simple requests that would benefit me, make my life easier. They wouldn't hurt anyone else.

My second list involved actions that involved serving others or serving God. Those were either answered almost immediately, or answered after years of intense prayer in a way that astonished me. I could then look back and see the steps I had been guided to (or through) that got me to the desired outcome.

I started looking at prayer differently. For example, would I ask a toddler to help me with a math problem. Of course not. A toddler was once very happy to go find my hairbrush, but had no interest at all in my math problem. The same with God. God had no interest in helping me clear a bad case of acne, but did show interest in encouraging me to pray for those who had passed on.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem I have with pretty much your whole post here is.. I have seen this over and over in life: the people who love Jesus and obey him.. they suffer a lot in many different ways. The evil ones.. esp the ones "running things".. who promote baby killing seem to have every blessing known to man.. So how is that fair? So everyone asks Why does God allow the good people to suffer.. when He is supposed tobe love itself? Well, I won't claim to have the absolutely perfect answer tothat but what I have learned about God is that He does not answer certain of my prayers or certainly not as-prayed.. so obviously.. I mean, some would conclude.. as I have also.. that God does not love me as much as.. I dunno... the law-breaking fake president, for example. He has all the goodies life has to offer while I do not (long stories).

God and circumstances did not place me in a political position. The strangers at my door and the work I was given to do some would call much more mundane. My favorite prayer is, "Here I am, Lord, send me" or "Here I am, I come to do Your will." Unlike President Lincoln or even Harriet Tubman, I have never been called to be heroic and well-known. I will pass through this life and like the great majority not one memory of me will remain.

Still, I keep my eyes open for the little things it seems God calls me to do--like helping a frazzled teen trying to manage screaming twin siblings. That is a talent I have, screaming kids, but it will never bring any more notice than a fellow passenger grateful for the help I could give her with her children. Little things, often overlooked, done by the overlooked.

That works for me and keeps me focused on my own life instead of the life of a president, or more to the point, the life of the Speaker of the House.

 

[Vastator]

Everyone knows Jesus suffered and died to pay the price for our sins.. a debt to God that had to be paid and only He could do that.

But there is more to be learned from His Cross..

Obviously there is a lot of suffering in the world

why does God allow it... everyone asks.

Well, I have prayed through many sufferings in my life.. couldn't begin to tell it all. And a thought occurs to me: If not for suffering, many people.. no, I say No one would pray. Think a bout it.. If everything is perfect all the time and no one can say that of course, why would anyone pray? But because things are so terribly imperfect, we reach out to God for intervention. So maybe God allows certain sufferings to get our attention? And there may be other reasons, probably are others.

So here is what I mean (partially)

When you look @ a Crucifix.. you can see yourself there.. and Christ with you. And one good thing that comes from your suffering (if you are Catholic), you will look at or imagine within your mind what Jesus went through and that is very, very .. um.. words fail.. uplifting? consoling? (etc)

So... Herding?. That's your explainaitiom?

 

[Canon Shooter]

when I fully u/stand or think I fully understand

What did you do with all that time you saved by typing "u/stand"?