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Washington Split on the Ukraine's Nato Bid.

Concerned American

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Unfortunately, the Ukrainian people have ended up as America's pawn to be sacrificed in the America/Russia game.
Unfortunately, the Ukrainian people have ended up as Canada's pawn to be sacrificed in the Canada/Russia game. There I fixed it for you duck--seeing as Canada has boots on the ground in Ukraine. It makes more sense than you interchanging America for NATO in all of your posts that use Russian propaganda as sources. Do you like duck or Ivan better for your moniker?
 

georgephillip

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Interesting. I was reading an article yesterday which said that Russia had not used their planes and I wondered if that might make a difference. I've got a feeling it may have been that one, though possibly I only skimmed! I have also thought Russia will now be waiting to get its recruits well trained and then come back in massive numbers. It is the only possible way that they can get Ukraine to the negotiating table. Then hopefully everyone will be sane. No one is going to get everything they want.
Ritter's also claimed the current conflict has morphed from a struggle of Russia against a NATO-supported army to one of Russia against a NATO army manned by Ukrainians.

He had this to say last April:

The Ukrainian conflict is a U.S./NATO Proxy War, but one which Russia is poised to win decisively – Scott Ritter | MR Online

"Russia is fighting a very difficult campaign hampered by its own constraint designed to limit civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure and the fact that Ukraine possesses a very well-trained military that is well led and equipped.

"Russia deployed some 200,000 troops in support of this operation.

"They are facing some 600,000 Ukrainian forces.

"The first phase of the Russian operation was designed to shape the battlefield to Russia’s advantage while diminishing the size and capacity of the Ukrainian ability to wage large-scale conflict.

"The second phase is focused on destroying the main Ukrainian force concentration in eastern Ukraine. Russia is well on its way to accomplishing this task."o_O
 
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Donald H

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Ritter's also claimed the current conflict has morphed from a struggle of Russia against a NATO-supported army to one of Russia against a NATO army manned by Ukrainians.

He had this to say last April:

The Ukrainian conflict is a U.S./NATO Proxy War, but one which Russia is poised to win decisively – Scott Ritter | MR Online

"Russia is fighting a very difficult campaign hampered by its own constraint designed to limit civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure and the fact that Ukraine possesses a very well-trained military that is well led and equipped.

"Russia deployed some 200,000 troops in support of this operation.

"They are facing some 600,000 Ukrainian forces.

"The first phase of the Russian operation was designed to shape the battlefield to Russia’s advantage while diminishing the size and capacity of the Ukrainian ability to wage large-scale conflict.

"The second phase is focused on destroying the main Ukrainian force concentration in eastern Ukraine. Russia is well on its way to accomplishing this task."o_O
If only it was as simple as Russia wiping every Ukrainian from the face of the earth. We know it's not.

America and Russia are at war!

The stakes are too high for either side to accept defeat! No less than the world's future is at stake.
 

georgephillip

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If only it was as simple as Russia wiping every Ukrainian from the face of the earth. We know it's not.

America and Russia are at war!

The stakes are too high for either side to accept defeat! No less than the world's future is at stake.
It does appear Russia and the US regard this as an existential conflict which seems understandable for the former but not the US unless the current economic collapse in the UK goes global; that could make Ukraine useful primarily as a distraction working for the benefit of Biden and Putin?
 
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Donald H

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It does appear Russia and the US regard this as an existential conflict which seems understandable for the former but not the US unless the current economic collapse in the UK goes global; that could make Ukraine useful primarily as a distraction working for the benefit of Biden and Putin?
Thanks for the rational reply.

I think that regardless of the side we take, or don't take, the gravity of the situation is much more serious than it's being portrayed.

I view it as the last and final fight between America and Russia.

Russia will either go forward to ally with China against US hegemony, or it will be defeated and be relegated to insignificance.

I don't see any other option!
 

georgephillip

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No I didn't read that article or certainly the second page, His belief is that Russia should do a Nato on Ukraine, that is drop bombs anywhere for three weeks until they can be pretty sure that everyone's morale is low and little is left and then come in with the 300,000 troops now properly trained and try and do a rout of those left while understanding that NATO might find this so upsetting that they feel the need to put their troops in and.........
One possible reaction to your scenario calls for Poland to hold a referendum in western Ukraine thereby bringing its forces (and NATO) into the conflict.

The recent Russian referendums have upgraded the "special military operation" into a "counterterrorism campaign." If this involves sufficient air power to knock out the electrical grid and water purification facilities in Kiev, it could result in a long, cold winter for far too many innocent civilians. (Not that many in DC or Moscow care)
 

georgephillip

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Thanks for the rational reply.

I think that regardless of the side we take, or don't take, the gravity of the situation is much more serious than it's being portrayed.

I view it as the last and final fight between America and Russia.

Russia will either go forward to ally with China against US hegemony, or it will be defeated and be relegated to insignificance.

I don't see any other option!
I'm wondering how we measure defeat or victory once nuclear weapons come into play? The US has long recognized the usefulness of Ukraine as a platform for destabilizing Russia/USSR.
90

"In Europe. Gargantuan C-47s, flown by Hungarian or Czech pilots, barreled toward Turkey, and then turned north over the Black Sea, evading radar by flying barely above the ground.

"As the planes flew over Lviv a string of parachutes opened, a handful of commandos tumbling into the sky over Soviet Ukraine.

"On the ground, they linked up with Ukrainian resistance fighters trying to beat back Soviet expansionism.

"Operation Red Sox, as it was known, was one of the first covert missions of the still new Cold War.

The Covert Operation to Back Ukrainian Independence that Haunts the CIA

"The American-trained commandos would feed intelligence back to their handlers using new radio and communications equipment, stoking nascent nationalist movements in Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and the Baltics.

"The goal was to provide the U.S. unprecedented insight into Moscow’s designs in Eastern Europe — and, if possible, to help crack apart the Soviet empire itself."

Many of the "commandos" were former Nazis who were quickly exterminated by the Soviets in 1949, but half-a-century later, the USSR collapsed and western investors made fortunes by privatizing natural resources.
 
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Donald H

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I'm wondering how we measure defeat or victory once nuclear weapons come into play? The US has long recognized the usefulness of Ukraine as a platform for destabilizing Russia/USSR.
90

"In Europe. Gargantuan C-47s, flown by Hungarian or Czech pilots, barreled toward Turkey, and then turned north over the Black Sea, evading radar by flying barely above the ground.

"As the planes flew over Lviv a string of parachutes opened, a handful of commandos tumbling into the sky over Soviet Ukraine.

"On the ground, they linked up with Ukrainian resistance fighters trying to beat back Soviet expansionism.

"Operation Red Sox, as it was known, was one of the first covert missions of the still new Cold War.

The Covert Operation to Back Ukrainian Independence that Haunts the CIA

"The American-trained commandos would feed intelligence back to their handlers using new radio and communications equipment, stoking nascent nationalist movements in Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and the Baltics.

"The goal was to provide the U.S. unprecedented insight into Moscow’s designs in Eastern Europe — and, if possible, to help crack apart the Soviet empire itself."

Many of the "commandos" were former Nazis who were quickly exterminated by the Soviets in 1949, but half-a-century later, the USSR collapsed and western investors made fortunes by privatizing natural resources.
Noted and with thanks for trying to maintain a decent discussion.

I just keep wondering if Trump will take the opportunity to go antiwar?
He doesn't have much time left but it would cause Russia to pause in their resolve in expectation of America backing down.
 

georgephillip

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Noted and with thanks for trying to maintain a decent discussion.

I just keep wondering if Trump will take the opportunity to go antiwar?
He doesn't have much time left but it would cause Russia to pause in their resolve in expectation of America backing down.
Has Trump made any comments on Ukraine lately?
I've been alive for 75 years and I've never seen the pro-war propaganda as unified as I'm seeing it today. If the world's on the cusp of a major economic collapse, the status quo won't tolerate any criticism.
1664737315997.png
 

alexa

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One possible reaction to your scenario calls for Poland to hold a referendum in western Ukraine thereby bringing its forces (and NATO) into the conflict.

The recent Russian referendums have upgraded the "special military operation" into a "counterterrorism campaign." If this involves sufficient air power to knock out the electrical grid and water purification facilities in Kiev, it could result in a long, cold winter for far too many innocent civilians. (Not that many in DC or Moscow care)
Yes well that is carrying on more in the way Ritter did which had my hair standing on end, I wish there was a way to end this which wouldn't risk an enormous loss of life in Ukraine and going on to WW3/Nuclear annihilation and there just does not seem to be one which is I think why we took so much care was taken not to fight with Russia during the cold war. Apparently Russia had better conventional weapons at that time which might be another reason.
 
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Donald H

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Has Trump made any comments on Ukraine lately?
I've been alive for 75 years and I've never seen the pro-war propaganda as unified as I'm seeing it today. If the world's on the cusp of a major economic collapse, the status quo won't tolerate any criticism.
View attachment 704575
There are some antiwar sentiments being expressed by Americans on this forum.

I don't know if that translated to the feelings of the country.

But there is a very powerful hate and resentment for Biden.

I see that as an opportunity for Trump, even though it would have it's pitfalls for Trump appearing to side with Putin.

We can hope!

I'm quite amazed at Biden's acceptance of the MIC/Pentagon hawks!
 

georgephillip

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Yes well that is carrying on more in the way Ritter did which had my hair standing on end, I wish there was a way to end this which wouldn't risk an enormous loss of life in Ukraine and going on to WW3/Nuclear annihilation and there just does not seem to be one which is I think why we took so much care was taken not to fight with Russia during the cold war. Apparently Russia had better conventional weapons at that time which might be another reason.
I was a little beyond 40 years old when the Cold War "ended", and I think today's population doesn't fully appreciate how difficult it is to "win" a nuclear war. I suspect conditions would be very different if it was understood DC and Moscow would be the first to glow in the dark in any nuclear exchange?
 

Litwin

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