Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

[Oldestyle]

Are you sure. A lot of what he says sounds very good. I agree with a fair bit of what he says. He was also supported by someone else. They were both laying out the sort of things he would need bits of from abroad and the sort of no good things they could manage with the sanctions. I do remember a Polish man on a forum I was on being scared Russia would come and take them back. That was years ago. I am really not bothered what Putin is like. That is not my business and I have no contact with him but on the reason for the war I disagree with you. Why would Russia have given them their freedom as Sovereign States if that was not the intent - of course under a different person than Putin and I am aware he says the end of the soviet Era was the worst thing that ever happened.
Thig is we do know that the US promised Gorbachev that there would be no enlargement of NATO beyond Germany if they allowed Germany to Unify. There are records of this. The US gave up on this promise pretty much immediately. Russia was warning the US from time to time that they had promised not to take these states into NATO. I saw a newspaper article from 2008 where Lavrov was complaining about the US saying Georgia and Ukraine would soon be in NATO. He said if they went that far Russia would have to intervene. Russia is pretty much surrounded with NATO states. I can see them being not to happy. What was the US doing telling Ukranians who they should have in what position Politically. At this time the US was helping them to oust a President. The US should not be involved in doing that in any country. During the next 8 years they were busy training them how to use British and US military equipment. Ukraine had been getting trained in this almost from when she got her Independence. She had fought in Iraq and I think Afghanistan along with NATO troops.

To me the argument that it was the US going against its promise not to bring in countries further east to Germany into NATO is the better one. That the US wanted to can be seen by their contact with Ukraine from the beginning. Likewise Moscow reminding them goes on all the way through. and so I do not agree with what you believe. It is nothing to do with anything else except not wanting the US to fight Russia and bring us to Nuclear war. I worry that they have decided to destroy Russia just to get rid of a Rival. I do not consider all Putin's murmurings to be the reason. Indeed I see them as being his wrong position he presented to his people, probably making them think of the Ukrainians as brothers more than they did before.

Post reply
Attach files Insert quotes…

With all due respect, Alexa...an agreement between the US and the former USSR over what sovereign nations do, would have been worthless as soon as there was no Soviet Union! When the USSR dissolved the Republics that made up the USSR became their own countries. Ukraine isn't ruled by Russia. Russia has no right to tell them what they can or cannot do.

 

[Dissident]

Is that what Nazis were known for? Mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions?

That is not about “mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions”.

That is about different levels of restrictions for different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.

Ethnic minorities which are recognized as indigenous peoples - in Ukraine they are only Crimean Tatars, Crimean Karaites and Krymchaks - have no restrictions to use their native languages during education in public secondary schools.
Ethnic minorities, whose languages are official languages of the European Union - e.g. ethnic Hungarians or Romanians – have some restrictions for use of their native languages during such education.
And other ethnic minorities – e.g. Russians, Belarusans etc.- have more such restrictions than Hungarians or Romanians.

Is this some sort of a fucking joke?

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other citizens, I don’t believe that you would call such restrictions “fucking jokes”.

 

[AntonToo]

That is not about “mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions”.

That is about different levels of restrictions for different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.

Thats not Nazism make and it does not give any serious grounds for invasion. When you say it does you sound deranged.

Maybe that passes for a serious argument on Russia's Channel 1, but it's just a laughable excuse to justify a bloody invasion to everyone outside that bubble.

 

[Dissident]

Thats not Nazism make. When you say it is you sound like a moron.

And what about you personally?

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I read they used hypersonic in Syria. The flying T-14's were only supposed to go into production this year so assuming they needed some imports for them, they would not have been made yet. there is something strange about this. I don't understand why Russia would invade Ukraine when it wasn't sure it had enough weapons to do so and with the sanctions was not going to be able to get them. Then I remember reading the US asking how they had been so wrong that they had expected Russia to have a vast amount of good weapons when they were seen to just have a few which were quickly dealt with.

I guess there are two possibilities now.

Russia did expect things to be easy on entering Ukraine and left most at home. They will come back when Russia comes back
or
Russia cannot invade Ukraine successfully because it does not have the weapons. If they cannot invade Ukraine then I would imagine they cannot defend Russia. What happens then?

War on Terror Not Led by Chickenhawks

Here's what happened to Chechnya when Putin decided to get serious, whereas his predecessor, Yeltsin, wasn't:

SECOND WAR AGAINST CHECHNYA, AN AL QAIDA OUTPOST

Russian troops: 80,000
Russian fatalities: 7,000

Chechen troops: 22,000
Killed in Action: 16,000

Chechen civilians killed: 80,000
Chechen population: 800,000
Chechen refugees: 350,000

 

[AntonToo]

That is not about “mandating use of national language in education and other public institutions”.

That is about different levels of restrictions for different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.

Ethnic minorities which are recognized as indigenous peoples - in Ukraine they are only Crimean Tatars, Crimean Karaites and Krymchaks - have no restrictions to use their native languages during education in public secondary schools.
Ethnic minorities, whose languages are official languages of the European Union - e.g. ethnic Hungarians or Romanians – have some restrictions for use of their native languages during such education.
And other ethnic minorities – e.g. Russians, Belarusans etc.- have more such restrictions than Hungarians or Romanians.


If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other citizens, I don’t believe that you would call such restrictions “fucking jokes”.

I'm a first generation, ethnic minority in America, my child learns in English, because thats the language we speak here. *GASP* Nazis! Nazis everywhere!

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

It's what I hear and if Europe's Gas was destroyed by the US I would think likely. You cannot make allies with someone who will hit you when you are down and then sell you what they have taken by something 4 times the cost on which they are making massive profits. You just do not do to allies what the US may have done.
There appears to be a lot of talk in Europe about its success being linked to Russia.
There is a talk that Germany at least is finished.

Now I told you it was not impossible that Europewould be integrated with China and Russia in the future and you are asking me for a date. Who would give a date for something which may or may not happen but
without energy at a decent price Europe will have to deindustrialise. People are saying it will be like 3rd world land. Do you really think they would choose that if they had an alternative. This would be to Putin's liking. He went with Dugin's plan which was to take all of Europe except the UK and to give Germany and France special powers within. Who knows.

Alternatively Europe will have sufficient green energy and be able to be independent of both yourselves and Russia.

Russia and China have their money now on the Gold Standard and will announce moving away from the dollar soon. The US days are over. I

The Days of American Transnationalist Traitors Are Over

 

[AntonToo]

And what about you personally?

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?

I sure as hell wouldn't call lack of ESL classes (which many American states do not have) Nazism, BECAUSE IT IS NOT.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Anyone, who says that “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” and afterwards refuses to present “a long list of NAMES of these killed political opponents”, is a liar.

You cannot even give a link to a source where we could see such a list.

You are not honest enough to have a debate with!

Why would anyone waste their time with you?

Neo-Con Karens

The internal affairs of foreign countries are none of our business. Whom they view as traitors and what they do about it is their own business. That goes for what the Saudis thought about Khashoggi, too.

 

[Dissident]

I sure as hell wouldn't call lack of ESL classes (which many American states do not have) Nazism, BECAUSE IT IS NOT.

Cannot you answer "Yes" or "No" to a very simple question (see below) which I have already asked you twice before?

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?

 

[AntonToo]

Cannot you answer "Yes" or "No" to a very simple question (see below) which I have already asked you twice before?

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?

Fucking joke is beliving these supposedly unequal laws to be Nazism.

You want to say it's discrimatory? That it's not fair to some group of people? Yea ok, go ahead.

You want to say it's Nazism that justifies invasion into a sovereign country? Now you are making a total fool of yourself.

 

[toomuchtime_]

And what about you personally?

If you personally or your children would in your country belong to an ethnic minority, which has more restrictions than other ethnic minorities, would you call such restrictions “fucking jokes” or wouldn't you?

This whole thread is based on a lie that the education law discriminates against some minorities in favor of others. This is a lie you tout on here from time to time, but the repetition does not make it true. The fact that you feel you need to tell lies to try to justify Russia's action means that you do not believe they are justified.

 

[Dissident]

You want to say it's Nazism that justifies invasion into a sovereign country?

I personally would call the above mentioned law a Nazi law or a law which is similar to Nazi laws.

But classical Nazism includes not only legislation, therefore other aspects of Ukrainian state must be discussed if we want to make a conclusion about Nazism as a whole.

As for justification of Russian military operation in Ukraine – you call it “invasion” – on Saturday I wrote a detailed post in this thread (see here) and there is a question in the lower part of this post.

I have asked many of my opponents to answer this question, but no one has answered it – no one has answered “Yes”, no one has answered “No” to this question.

 

[AntonToo]

I personally would call the above mentioned law a Nazi law or a law which is similar to Nazi laws.

But classical Nazism includes not only legislation, therefore other aspects of Ukrainian state must be discussed if we want to make a conclusion about Nazism as a whole.

So any kind of inequitable law, that is in any shape unfair to a group of people = NAZIS!

Tell me, does Russia have any Nazi laws? Let me know if you need some help listing them.

 

[AntonToo]

As for justification of Russian military operation in Ukraine – you call it “invasion” – on Saturday I wrote a detailed post in this thread (see here) and there is a question in the lower part of this post.

When you roll in tanks into a sovereign country, bomb cities and take over lands that is OF COURSE an invasion. What the fuck else can it possibly be?

You may have some sort of rationalizations and reasons for invasion, but it takes a Russian TV brainwashed person to attept to say it's not an invasion.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Iraq did not invade any part of the U.S. in 2003.
The U.S. invaded Iraq because Iraq allegedly had weapons of mass destruction.
However, after the U.S. occupied Iraq, they never found any weapons of mass destruction there.

Iraq invaded Kuwait. The US and UN replied with a war to force Iraq back into its borders. Iraq signed a TEMPORARY cease fire to end that war and almost immediately started violating the terms of that cease-fire. It also violated something like twelve UN Resolutions about its conduct during the cease-fire. After many warnings the US went back to war and easily won. The occupying allies did find WMDs and evidence that Saddam had moved large stores out of the country possibly to Syria. He also went to great lengths to convince everyone that he had WMD. He even convinced his generals. I saw post war interviews with several generals all said I had no WMD but I know Mohammad did, they went to Mohammad, and he said I didn't, but Abdul did and on and on. Saddam was running a bluff and it backfired on him.

 

[AZrailwhale]

so you will just leave them and get on with your lives?

No. What I think will happen is that Russia will have to give up Sevastopol and all claims to Ukrainian territory. It will also have to pay reparations to Ukraine and possibly return South Ossetia to Georgia. Only after that is done will the sanctions be lifted and even then Russia will be a pariah state like the DPRK for several generations. Russia had the chance to join the family of nations after the fall of the communist party and squandered it. Western nations were falling all over themselves trying to help Russia and western corporations were investing billions in the Russian economy. Then Putin came into power and he and his kleptocrat buddies decided to loot the country and restore the dead tyranny of the old USSR by force and terror.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I think there is a reasonable chance NATO would push Ukraine to give up Crimea if Russia agrees to give up it's other demands and withdraws from the east.

I don't agree. As long as Russia has control of Crimea and no contiguous, secure land bridge Russia will fear having Ukraine cut off access to Crimea. For a lasting peace Russia will have to be expelled from Crimea and agree to give up its lease on Sevastopol naval base.

 

[AZrailwhale]

You're missing my point. Russia would appear at the moment not to have the military weapons needed to beat Ukraine. This would be due to sanctions. Now she may have them and come back with them. However if Russia does not have these weapons and cannot get a cease fire then she also will not have them to protect Russia. What happens with Russia. You can no more protect your country with farm utensils and old guns than you can beat the Ukranian army with same. What happens to Russia if she does not have the weapons to attack Ukraine and protect herself?

Simple, Russia will become the third world craphole it always has been. It just won't have delusions of grandeur and a military force to keep them up. Russia was always a third world society with a second world military. It used mass to achieve what it couldn't do technically. What eventually caused the fall of the communists in Russia was that the west got so technically advanced that Russia's historical reliance on mass couldn't compensate and Russia had to try to match western innovation and capability one on one and it couldn't.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I understand that the reason why Russia has not been issuing and using good weapons is because sanctions have stopped her being able to get material to repair them or get new ones,

I was watching a good video by a researcher on Russian armor. According to recent sat photos Russia has less than a thousand tanks and AFVs left in its depots that appear capable of being restored to fighting trim. It has lost more than fifteen hundred so far in the war destroyed or captured. The number of restorable tanks may be even lower since he's counting anything that looks intact as restorable. Tank parks that used to be full are now half empty and Russia is drawing on obsolete cold war era armor that is far less capable and survivable than what it has lost so far in the war. This is similar to the beginning of Operation Barbarossa where Russia lost most of its tank stocks, but Russia doesn't have the ability to crank out T-34 analogues now to replace its losses. As Russia fields less capable armor Ukraine can fall back on less capable anti-tank weapons like TOWs and Saggars and still kill Russian armor.