Zone1 Was Eve expelled from Eden, or did she leave with Adam?

[ding]

" ם – the books of the sectarians, such as the books of Aristotle the Greek and his colleagues. And included in this – a person who reads the chronicles of the heathen kings, “songs of sensuality” [=erotic poems], and “writings of desire” [=novels] that have no wisdom in them or purpose other than a waste of time alone. "

Note what it does not include.

Ps בדרך עראי, המאמין לא יחוש מלקרות בהן, כדי לידע מה להשיב לאפיקורוס

Splitting hairs. The gospels were written by Jews and Jews persecuted Jews who spread the gospels.

 

[Divine Wind]

That’s not how the gospels recorded it. If it is as you say that Jesus survived being crucified instead of suffering death and rising from the dead, then how do you explain the gospels recording that Jesus suffered death and rose from the dead?

Correct, but since the Gospels were written decades later, the authors could only go by the stories and, perhaps, notes. Illiteracy was common in the ancient world so not many people were capable of writing.

The Bible is human perception. The Gospels didn't fall off the Cross. Obviously something extraordinary happened then. Something very memorable. There were plenty of Rabbis and others running around such as John the Baptist. What makes a simple carpenter strung up on the weekly Roman crucifixion so memorable except for the fact he survived it even if he succumbed to his wounds later?

Unlike the two criminals crucified next to him, Jesus was taken down and entombed after only a few hours. He appeared dead so the Roman guards let it happen.

 

[ding]

What evidence?

The historical evidence shows:

1. The first Christians who witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles.
2. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
3. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
4. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy.
5. The empty tomb. There are no accounts that dispute the tomb was empty.
6. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
7. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
8. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
9. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
10. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
11. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
12. The behaviors of the Apostles before and after the resurrection of Christ.

After the crucifixion they are despondent, dejected, depressed, hiding. They've fled. Peter denied Jesus three times. Our leader has been put to death in the most degrading possible way. And they thought, "That's it! It's over!" But then history clearly shows that after Easter these same people that were once cowardly are now boldly proclaiming that Jesus is resurrected. In Acts 2, just a few weeks after the resurrection, says "Then Peter stood up, he raised his voice and addressed the crowd and said, 'God has raised this Jesus to life and we are all witnesses to this fact.'" We saw it. We know it's true.

 

[ding]

the Gospels were written decades later…

But the worshipping of Jesus as God began immediately after he rose from the dead. The apostles risked their lives because of what they had seen.

 

[ding]

Unlike the two criminals crucified next to him, Jesus was taken down and entombed after only a few hours. He appeared dead so the Roman guards let it happen.

That’s not how the gospels recorded it.

 

[hobelim]

Apes and bears stand upright.

If you think what separates humanity from animals, is that they never look up, or ruminate - then you could use some time on a farm.

Standing upright has nothing to do with being a biped.

 

[hobelim]

The results. As @ding brought up, why would the Apostles martyr themselves for a fabrication? They truly believed they saw a miracle and thus truly believed in following the path of Jesus.

Yes but this is supposed to have happened in the same reality that everyone has been intimately aquainted with since birth.

The Jewish belief is that God communicates to people through dreams and visions. The only possible way that the eyewitness accounts of seeing Jesus after the crucifixion can be true is if they were eyewitness accounts of what the disciples saw and heard in dreams which would have convinced them that Jesus survived death and was alive and well living in the eternal realm of God which also convinced them that Jesus was right about the way to comply with the Law and removed their fear of death.

 

[Divine Wind]

That’s not how the gospels recorded it.

What is your perception of how the Gospels recorded it? Wasn't Jesus crucified with two other criminals? Wasn't Jesus taken down early due to the Sabbath?

 

[rosends]

Splitting hairs. The gospels were written by Jews and Jews persecuted Jews who spread the gospels.

What does that have to do with an accurate understanding of the mishna you cited?

 

[Divine Wind]

Yes but this is supposed to have happened in the same reality that everyone has been intimately aquainted with since birth.

The Jewish belief is that God communicates to people through dreams and visions. The only possible way that the eyewitness accounts of seeing Jesus after the crucifixion can be true is if they were eyewitness accounts of what the disciples saw and heard in dreams which would have convinced them that Jesus survived death and was alive and well living in the eternal realm of God which also convinced them that Jesus was right about the way to comply with the Law and removed their fear of death.

Alternatively, Jesus survived being nailed to a cross for an afternoon even if he later died of sepsis.

Like the story of Adam and Eve, the events were written down much later than the actual events depicted. Stories change over time. This is why the Dead Sea Scrolls were so important. They were written much earlier than modern versions.

The Dead Sea Scrolls

The Leon Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library offers an exceptional encounter with antiquity. Using the world's most advanced imaging technology, the Digital Library preserves thousands of scroll fragments, including the oldest known copies of biblical texts, now accessible to the...

www.deadseascrolls.org.il

How the Dead Sea Scrolls Changed Our Bibles: 3 Exciting Examples

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www.logos.com

 

[hobelim]

Why not?

Perhaps he ate the root.

You do know that the fruit of the trees in eden that were pleasing to the eye and good to eat represent people, teachers. Don't you?

The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents a despicable person, a deceiver, con artist, or biblically speaking a talking serpent.

 

[hobelim]

Alternatively, Jesus survived being nailed to a cross for an afternoon even if he later died of sepsis.

The Passover Plot? Nice read but not plausible when taking into account that Jesus was beaten almost to death before he was crucified. One thing the Romans didn't screw up was practicing human sacrifice to a trinity on the Mithran cross. They were brutal and effective. No one survived crucifixion. Jesus, the Jewish messiah, was "the perfect human sacrifice."

Like the story of Adam and Eve, the events were written down much later than the actual events depicted.

When was the last time someone read the story of the three pigs to you? Many many decades ago? I'm sure you could retell that story without making any mistakes. And even if you changed the pigs into people and the big bad wold into satan it would not affect the moral lessons of the story which was never written down. True?

 

[Divine Wind]

The passover plot? Nice read but not plausible when taking into account that Jesus was beaten half to death before he was crucified. One thing the Romans did not screw up was practicing human sacrifice to a trinity on the Mithran cross. They were brutal and effective. No one survived crucifixion. Jesus, the Jewish messiah, was "the perfect human sacrifice.

When was the last time someone read the story of the three pigs to you? Many decades ago? I'm sure you could retell that story without making any mistakes. And even if you changed the pigs into people and the big bad wold into satan it would not affect the moral lessons of the story which was never written down. True?

So you believe in miracles over the laws of the natural universe as created by God at the Big Bang? There are lots of miracles in the Bible. None in the modern era. Why?

Hence the point; a story with a moral just like Aesop's Fables...none of which are absolutely, 100% the truth, but do teach a good lesson as ancient wisdom often does.

 

[hobelim]

So you believe in miracles over the laws of the natural universe as created by God at the Big Bang?

Logically speaking if the universe had a beginning only that which people think of as God could have been the cause. That being said, the story of the creation of heaven and earth is not and never was about the BB.

There are lots of miracles in the Bible. None in the modern era. Why?

Maybe you just don't know how to look. teachers all over the world open the eyes of the blind every single day.

I once knew a great guy that everyone loved. He became a Jesus freak , died, so to speak, and became an asshole that no one liked. Years later I ran into him on the streets of the city. He told me he left that tomb once he realized it was bullshit they were peddling his sanity was restored. A "miracle" tantamount to the dead coming back to life. Happens all the time.

Thats being said I have had many friends and family come to me in dreams after they died specifically to tell me they were not dead.