Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?

[surada]

The Gnostic Gospels - FRONTLINE

The Story Of The Storytellers - The Gnostic Gospels

Scholar Elaine Pagels explores the Gnostic Gospels.

www.pbs.org

ArchaeologyDeathDiscoveryQuotesWritingsCriticismContentsCompositi

In December 1945 an Arab peasant made an astonishing archeological discovery in Upper Egypt. Rumors obscured the circumstances of this findperhaps because the discovery was accidental, and its sale on the black market illegal. For years even the identity of the discoverer remained unknown. One rumor held that he was a blood avenger; another, that he had made the find near the town of Naj Hammádì at the Jabal al-Tárif, a mountain honeycombed with more than 150 caves. Originally natural, some of these ca…

 

[GreatestIam]

Gnostic Beliefs - Christian History for Everyman

Gnostic Beliefs

A summation of typical 2nd century gnostic beliefs, the earliest that we know anything about.

www.christian-history.org

The defining characteristic of gnosticism is "dualism." Dualism means that there's a spirit world, which is good, and a material world, and everything about that material world is bad. According to gnosticism, all of nature is a mistake produced by an ignorant god. Photo mine. The reason that the material world is bad, according to gnostic beliefs, is that the true God of all the universe didn't make it.

Thanks.

That description is only partially right.

We actually love matter as we see our bodies holding/housing a spark of god/life force.

We cannot hate what keeps our god.

The inquisitors who won the god wars wrote the history and did a lot of lying.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.

1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

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The Gnostic Christian reality.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.

[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

As you can see, we do not hold any supernatural beliefs.

Regards
DL

 

[surada]

Thanks.

That description is only partially right.

We actually love matter as we see our bodies holding/housing a spark of god/life force.

We cannot hate what keeps our god.

The inquisitors who won the god wars wrote the history and did a lot of lying.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.

1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

-----------
The Gnostic Christian reality.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.

[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

As you can see, we do not hold any supernatural beliefs.

Regards
DL

Doesn't gnosis mean knowledge?

What Is Gnosticism and Who Are the Gnostics? - Learn Religions

What Is Gnosticism and Who Are the Gnostics?

Learn how Gnosticism refers to a very wide range of beliefs that is more a collection of beliefs than a religion and the two primary components of it.

www.learnreligions.com

 

[GreatestIam]

Doesn't gnosis mean knowledge?

Partially.

More like in-depth knowledge based on nature, logic and reason.

We seek to know the final argument that shuts people up.

That weird statement is explained by the following.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

What is God?

Further.
Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.



-----------

Here is a decent explanation of Gnosis.



Regards
DL

 

[Stann]

Gnostic Beliefs - Christian History for Everyman

Gnostic Beliefs

A summation of typical 2nd century gnostic beliefs, the earliest that we know anything about.

www.christian-history.org

The defining characteristic of gnosticism is "dualism." Dualism means that there's a spirit world, which is good, and a material world, and everything about that material world is bad. According to gnosticism, all of nature is a mistake produced by an ignorant god. Photo mine. The reason that the material world is bad, according to gnostic beliefs, is that the true God of all the universe didn't make it.

Understanding truth lies somewhere in between. God created the physical world, it has yet to live up to its expressed purpose for which it was created.

 

[GreatestIam]

God created the physical world,

You know this, how?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

it has yet to live up to its expressed purpose for which it was created.

It produced and sustains us.

What could be better from our POV?

Regards
DL

 

[Ivan88]

Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?

Thanks.

Regards
DL

Good Question. Since Yahweh/YahShua is the Creator and made this Earth as a testing ground to see what we really love and hate, and is in charge of everything, it is logical to have had Adam begin the process of sin as a test for everyone since then. Adam was the snake who deceived Eve.

 

[ding]

Gnostic Beliefs - Christian History for Everyman

Gnostic Beliefs

A summation of typical 2nd century gnostic beliefs, the earliest that we know anything about.

www.christian-history.org

The defining characteristic of gnosticism is "dualism." Dualism means that there's a spirit world, which is good, and a material world, and everything about that material world is bad. According to gnosticism, all of nature is a mistake produced by an ignorant god. Photo mine. The reason that the material world is bad, according to gnostic beliefs, is that the true God of all the universe didn't make it.

And you think someone who does not accept any aspect of a supernatural God (like greatestiam), let alone two supernatural Gods is a Gnostic Christian?

 

[surada]

And you think someone who does not accept any aspect of a supernatural God (like greatestiam), let alone two supernatural Gods is a Gnostic Christian?

I have no idea. Just trying to understand what they believe. But, its pretty clear that early Christianity was diverse in beliefs.

 

[ding]

I have no idea. Just trying to understand what they believe. But, its pretty clear that early Christianity was diverse in beliefs.

No idea? Did you even read your link?

The defining characteristic of gnosticism is "dualism." Dualism means that there's a spirit world, which is good, and a material world, and everything about that material world is bad.

 

[ding]

Gnostic Christians were communists which is the only thing GreatestIam has in common with Gnostic Christians.

 

[BreezeWood]

Gnostic Christians were communists which is the only thing GreatestIam has in common with Gnostic Christians.

They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mold the proletarian movement.

in bing's day they were more worried about what their slaves might be up to ... till 1848 when they wrote their own pamphlet - now bing is just beyond themself in grief for his own fu=ture.

as a madeup christian with no where to go.

 

[ding]

in bing's day they were more worried about what their slaves might be up to ... till 1848 when they wrote their own pamphlet - now bing is just beyond themself in grief for his own fu=ture.

as a madeup christian with no where to go.

It was Christians who ended slavery in America.

 

[surada]

No idea? Did you even read your link?

Yes, but I can't say that I fully understand Gnosticism. I don't.

 

[surada]

It was Christians who ended slavery in America.

It was also Christians who justified slavery with the story of Ham.

 

[ding]

Yes, but I can't say that I fully understand Gnosticism. I don't.

Do you understand enough to know that Gnostic Christians believed in two supernatural Gods? The evil God of the OT who was the God of the material world and the good God of the NT who was the God of the spiritual world?

Because GreatestIam believes in no supernatural gods, like you.

 

[ding]

It was also Christians who justified slavery with the story of Ham.

If you think the Bible justifies slavery as good then you are misreading the Bible.

 

[surada]

Gnostic Christians were communists which is the only thing GreatestIam has in common with Gnostic Christians.

WHAT THREAT DID GNOSTICISM POSE TO THE CHURCH AND HOW DID THE CHURCH RESPOND TO IT

The Gnostics were a threat to the church at a time that the church was starting to develop as a hierarchical organisation with political power. Gnosticism undermined that power by claiming that they only obeyed the higher power of God himself.12 Gnostics claimed that through visions they experience Christ's continuing presence. Gnostics claimed that because of this they were above the authority of bishops, priests and deacons. They would even claim that as they were still experiencing Christ now, they were even greater than the apostles13. If the Gnostics remained within the mainstream church, this attitude would undermine and weaken the episcopal authority of the church.


Clement argued that the church believed in the overall authority of God. However, this power had been delegated to the bishops, priests and deacons on earth. According to Clement by refusing to obey the bishops, the Gnostics were refusing to obey God himself.14

 

[surada]

If you think the Bible justifies slavery as good then you are misreading the Bible.

I am familiar with the story of Noah and Ham in Genesis 9. Canaan was cursed into perpetual servitude.