Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[Picaro]

These poor devils lost a war.

.

I always laugh at that one, since the Sioux were themselves major mass murderers of the surrounding tribes as they built their own big empire on the Plains. They have zero moral status to be whining about anything.

 

[rylah]

Losing a war is a bitch.

These poor devils lost a war.

Black South Africans and Palestinians (so far) only lost battles.

False equivalence.

The Arabs who cannot even pronounce that name of the land they claim,
are actually the antagonists of Native Americans.

In matter of fact, Arabs came from the same countries where they expelled the Jews.
Further attempt to make it about skin color, is just a shallow racist projection.

 

[rylah]

I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along. I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.



Netanyahu announces new settlements days before Israeli election


Benjamin Netanyahu has announced he will move ahead with a highly controversial plan to build settlements east of Jerusalem, in an apparent offering to hardline nationalist voters less than a week before a general election.

Israel’s prime minister said he would reopen the long-dormant project to build 3,500 homes for Jewish settlers in one of the most sensitive areas of the occupied West Bank.

Palestinians and their global backers argue the plan would virtually cut the West Bank into two enclaves and completely encircle Palestinian neighbourhoods in the holy city. It has long been seen as an impassable barrier to any viable future Palestinian state. Upwards of 2,000 Bedouin people living in E1 could also be displaced.

The analysis from The Guardian is more on the sensationalist than on the factual side.

Ma'ale Adumim is an integral part of Jerusalem,
as far as I see, it was never assumed to be included in the autonomy.
The 3,500 homes, are actually apartment units, can be 3,500 private houses, or 65 level towers,
in any variation. Basically all aligned with the TAMA100 trajectory, infrastructure development plan,
to make Jerusalem the largest city in the country.

Abu Dis, as designated in Trump Plan for the Arab capital is outside E1.
The PA comments are overall comical, just last week they declared issuing building permits in C.
Bedouins might be required to move, though we haven't seen the planning, but it won't be displacement, that's a blood libel. More likely a financial package with infrastructure in nearby location.

And let me explain one simple thing, they claim new neighborhoods will encircle the neighborhoods under PA control, but they're already encircled, have been this ever since they had it, neither geographically creates any enclaves. It's evident for anyone who drives around in a car - everything closely encircles everything, especially in the area of Jerusalem. Probably half of what looks as separate villages on the map are in short walking range, and when in such proximity basically indistinguishable.

(To conclude)
Basically add the 3,500 apartments or not, the Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem anyway encircled by Jewish once and vice versa. To claim that this prevents their statehood, adds to a whole bunch of their other ridiculous excuses for their dysfunction.

And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.

 

[Coyote]

I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along. I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.



Netanyahu announces new settlements days before Israeli election


Benjamin Netanyahu has announced he will move ahead with a highly controversial plan to build settlements east of Jerusalem, in an apparent offering to hardline nationalist voters less than a week before a general election.

Israel’s prime minister said he would reopen the long-dormant project to build 3,500 homes for Jewish settlers in one of the most sensitive areas of the occupied West Bank.

Palestinians and their global backers argue the plan would virtually cut the West Bank into two enclaves and completely encircle Palestinian neighbourhoods in the holy city. It has long been seen as an impassable barrier to any viable future Palestinian state. Upwards of 2,000 Bedouin people living in E1 could also be displaced.

The analysis from The Guardian is more on the sensationalist than on the factual side.

Ma'ale Adumim is an integral part of Jerusalem,
as far as I see, it was never assumed to be included in the autonomy.
The 3,500 homes, are actually apartment units, can be 3,500 private houses, or 65 level towers,
in any variation. Basically all aligned with the TAMA100 trajectory, infrastructure development plan,
to make Jerusalem the largest city in the country.

Abu Dis, as designated in Trump Plan for the Arab capital is outside E1.
The PA comments are overall comical, just last week they declared issuing building permits in C.
Bedouins might be required to move, though we haven't seen the planning, but it won't be displacement, that's a blood libel. More likely a financial package with infrastructure in nearby location.

And let me explain one simple thing, they claim new neighborhoods will encircle the neighborhoods under PA control, but they're already encircled, have been this ever since they had it, neither geographically creates any enclaves. It's evident for anyone who drives around in a car - everything closely encircles everything, especially in the area of Jerusalem. Probably half of what looks as separate villages on the map are in short walking range, and when in such proximity basically indistinguishable.

(To conclude)
Basically add the 3,500 apartments or not, the Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem anyway encircled by Jewish once and vice versa. To claim that this prevents their statehood, adds to a whole bunch of their other ridiculous excuses for their dysfunction.

And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.

A leader of his caliber?

He's a politician - like any other, with an eye towards re-election, and a base to pander to.

He's never done anything to indicate a support for a two state solution - never.

So what do you think his aims are?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along. I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.



Netanyahu announces new settlements days before Israeli election


Benjamin Netanyahu has announced he will move ahead with a highly controversial plan to build settlements east of Jerusalem, in an apparent offering to hardline nationalist voters less than a week before a general election.

Israel’s prime minister said he would reopen the long-dormant project to build 3,500 homes for Jewish settlers in one of the most sensitive areas of the occupied West Bank.

Palestinians and their global backers argue the plan would virtually cut the West Bank into two enclaves and completely encircle Palestinian neighbourhoods in the holy city. It has long been seen as an impassable barrier to any viable future Palestinian state. Upwards of 2,000 Bedouin people living in E1 could also be displaced.

The analysis from The Guardian is more on the sensationalist than on the factual side.

Ma'ale Adumim is an integral part of Jerusalem,
as far as I see, it was never assumed to be included in the autonomy.
The 3,500 homes, are actually apartment units, can be 3,500 private houses, or 65 level towers,
in any variation. Basically all aligned with the TAMA100 trajectory, infrastructure development plan,
to make Jerusalem the largest city in the country.

Abu Dis, as designated in Trump Plan for the Arab capital is outside E1.
The PA comments are overall comical, just last week they declared issuing building permits in C.
Bedouins might be required to move, though we haven't seen the planning, but it won't be displacement, that's a blood libel. More likely a financial package with infrastructure in nearby location.

And let me explain one simple thing, they claim new neighborhoods will encircle the neighborhoods under PA control, but they're already encircled, have been this ever since they had it, neither geographically creates any enclaves. It's evident for anyone who drives around in a car - everything closely encircles everything, especially in the area of Jerusalem. Probably half of what looks as separate villages on the map are in short walking range, and when in such proximity basically indistinguishable.

(To conclude)
Basically add the 3,500 apartments or not, the Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem anyway encircled by Jewish once and vice versa. To claim that this prevents their statehood, adds to a whole bunch of their other ridiculous excuses for their dysfunction.

And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.

A leader of his caliber?

He's a politician - like any other, with an eye towards re-election, and a base to pander to.

He's never done anything to indicate a support for a two state solution - never.

So what do you think his aims are?

So what do you think his aims are?

Israel's primary goal from the beginning is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. This goal has never changed.

 

[Picaro]

I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along. I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.



Netanyahu announces new settlements days before Israeli election


Benjamin Netanyahu has announced he will move ahead with a highly controversial plan to build settlements east of Jerusalem, in an apparent offering to hardline nationalist voters less than a week before a general election.

Israel’s prime minister said he would reopen the long-dormant project to build 3,500 homes for Jewish settlers in one of the most sensitive areas of the occupied West Bank.

Palestinians and their global backers argue the plan would virtually cut the West Bank into two enclaves and completely encircle Palestinian neighbourhoods in the holy city. It has long been seen as an impassable barrier to any viable future Palestinian state. Upwards of 2,000 Bedouin people living in E1 could also be displaced.

The analysis from The Guardian is more on the sensationalist than on the factual side.

Ma'ale Adumim is an integral part of Jerusalem,
as far as I see, it was never assumed to be included in the autonomy.
The 3,500 homes, are actually apartment units, can be 3,500 private houses, or 65 level towers,
in any variation. Basically all aligned with the TAMA100 trajectory, infrastructure development plan,
to make Jerusalem the largest city in the country.

Abu Dis, as designated in Trump Plan for the Arab capital is outside E1.
The PA comments are overall comical, just last week they declared issuing building permits in C.
Bedouins might be required to move, though we haven't seen the planning, but it won't be displacement, that's a blood libel. More likely a financial package with infrastructure in nearby location.

And let me explain one simple thing, they claim new neighborhoods will encircle the neighborhoods under PA control, but they're already encircled, have been this ever since they had it, neither geographically creates any enclaves. It's evident for anyone who drives around in a car - everything closely encircles everything, especially in the area of Jerusalem. Probably half of what looks as separate villages on the map are in short walking range, and when in such proximity basically indistinguishable.

(To conclude)
Basically add the 3,500 apartments or not, the Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem anyway encircled by Jewish once and vice versa. To claim that this prevents their statehood, adds to a whole bunch of their other ridiculous excuses for their dysfunction.

And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.

A leader of his caliber?

He's a politician - like any other, with an eye towards re-election, and a base to pander to.

He's never done anything to indicate a support for a two state solution - never.

So what do you think his aims are?

So what do you think his aims are?

Israel's primary goal from the beginning is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. This goal has never changed.

lol so you're saying the Ottoman Turks are Jews, now, and part of some grand conspiracy? No 'Palestinians' existed until some terrorist gangsters invented them out of nothing in the 1950's.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, rylah, et al,

Leadership: That is a tough quality about people. It is hard to explain. But at the end of the day, it is not what a person exhibits that defines a leader (or not) but that of people that follow him/her. One thing that all leaders have in common; a significant group that follows them. No matters what book you read about "how to be a Leader," it all boils down to whether or not there is a following.

There is a world of difference between President (D) Franklin D Roosevelt • and that of • Chancellor Adolf Hitler (NSDAP). Yet both of them had a large following and power behind them. History portrays them very differently; one as being the embodiment of "good" the other an expression of absolute "evil." But there is no question in history that they each brought their nation under their control and influence.

And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.

A leader of his caliber?
He's a politician - like any other, with an eye towards re-election, and a base to pander to.
He's never done anything to indicate a support for a two state solution - never.
So what do you think his aims are?

(COMMENT)

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (Likud) has been in power for more than a decade over what is today the most successful and developing nation in the entire Middle East and North Africa (MENA). The PM's effective organizational performance and political results have taken a multi-cultural nation (ethnically, nationally, and whose religious identity is unambiguous) to new heights. He has kept Israel out of major confrontations with the Arab World, and yet maintained a position of strength in one of the more contentious areas of the world. And the people of Israel know this. You simply cannot be in such a position, for such a time, with such outcomes → and not be a leader; whether you agree (on any stance or political agenda) with him or not.

As to the two-state solution: When I was a paperboy (more than a half-century ago), on this one particular route I had this mean, ferocious-looking, and growling dog that would follow me, stocking me → as if at any moment - if I was to drop my awareness of him - he would pounce. Even today, when I think about him, I cannot recall a dog with bigger teeth than his. But I would rollup a paper and periodically turn towards him and slap my leg and yell at him to get him to back off. He never did attack me, but for two years(+) we have this adversarial relationship → with me frightened at every confrontation. Then, one day, the dog was gone. I don't know where and never knew why, but he was gone. The two-state solution is like that mad dog of my youth. The two-state solution is always there, frighteningly close, yet in reality, → a threat never realized. Maybe because the Israelis growl at it - or maybe because it is just not a good idea for now. We just don't know. The current US proposal is just one more trip around the block with the dog trailing behind.

The only difference is that I can't imagine anyone that could have possibly been more scared of something, as I was of the damn dog; least of all, the Israelis afraid of something.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

 

[toomuchtime_]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

 

[Coyote]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

The status quo is not sustainable le long term. And Israeli soveriegnty means or should mean, offer of citizenship for all in the area, which imo would be a good thing.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

The status quo cannot be maintained forever, nor was it meant to last that way. It's too bad that you don't seem to have the vision or imagination to strive for something better. For both peoples.

 

[toomuchtime_]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

The status quo is not sustainable le long term. And Israeli soveriegnty means or should mean, offer of citizenship for all in the area, which imo would be a good thing.

Clearly the status quo has been sustainable for a long time already, over 50 years, and since there is no other viable alternative to it, by default it will be sustainable for a long time in the future.

The areas that Israel will annex contain very few Palestinians, and those that do live there will become residents with nearly all the rights and protections of Israeli citizens and will have the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship, as is the case in Jerusalem.

 

[toomuchtime_]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

The status quo cannot be maintained forever, nor was it meant to last that way. It's too bad that you don't seem to have the vision or imagination to strive for something better. For both peoples.

That was heartwarming, but the fact is there is no clear path to any alternative so the status quo, which has been sustainable for over fifty years now, will remain sustainable for the foreseeable future.

 

[Coyote]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

The status quo is not sustainable le long term. And Israeli soveriegnty means or should mean, offer of citizenship for all in the area, which imo would be a good thing.

Clearly the status quo has been sustainable for a long time already, over 50 years, and since there is no other viable alternative to it, by default it will be sustainable for a long time in the future.

The areas that Israel will annex contain very few Palestinians, and those that do live there will become residents with nearly all the rights and protections of Israeli citizens and will have the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship, as is the case in Jerusalem.

They should be granted citizenship if they want it. Otherwise Israel can not call itself a Democracy and you will have a nation with two distinct and not equal populations. That certainly give fodder to those who call it apartheid, and will just continue the violence and unrest. People dont like inequality of rights.

 

[toomuchtime_]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

The status quo is not sustainable le long term. And Israeli soveriegnty means or should mean, offer of citizenship for all in the area, which imo would be a good thing.

Clearly the status quo has been sustainable for a long time already, over 50 years, and since there is no other viable alternative to it, by default it will be sustainable for a long time in the future.

The areas that Israel will annex contain very few Palestinians, and those that do live there will become residents with nearly all the rights and protections of Israeli citizens and will have the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship, as is the case in Jerusalem.

They should be granted citizenship if they want it. Otherwise Israel can not call itself a Democracy and you will have a nation with two distinct and not equal populations. That certainly give fodder to those who call it apartheid, and will just continue the violence and unrest. People dont like inequality of rights.

To an anti semite like yourself, that might make sense, but every country has residents who are not eligible for citizenship, so were your vision not so narrowly focused on Israel, you would have to conclude there are no democracies in the world.

 

[Shusha]

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?

No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.

The status quo is not sustainable le long term. And Israeli soveriegnty means or should mean, offer of citizenship for all in the area, which imo would be a good thing.

Clearly the status quo has been sustainable for a long time already, over 50 years, and since there is no other viable alternative to it, by default it will be sustainable for a long time in the future.

The areas that Israel will annex contain very few Palestinians, and those that do live there will become residents with nearly all the rights and protections of Israeli citizens and will have the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship, as is the case in Jerusalem.

They should be granted citizenship if they want it. Otherwise Israel can not call itself a Democracy and you will have a nation with two distinct and not equal populations. That certainly give fodder to those who call it apartheid, and will just continue the violence and unrest. People dont like inequality of rights.

This is justification for the use of violence. It suggests that the path to equality and citizenship is through violence. Its morally unacceptable and its backwards.

The Palestinian people should be offered the CHOICE of citizenship, rather than having citizenship forced upon them. That is entirely fair and reasonable. There is absolutely nothing unfair or unequal in giving people that choice. My mother (a US citizen) lived for 50 years in Canada as a permanent resident. Why? Because she chose not to apply for Canadian citizenship. No one is accusing Canada of being an apartheid nation because of the option of permanent residency.

 

[Shusha]

The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is a stalemate. The status quo will continue until something moves or changes, thus ending the stalemate. So far, nothing of consequence has changed the position of either side.

The question then, is what COULD change which would be large enough to end the stalemate?

 

[USAF 2023]

The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is a stalemate. The status quo will continue until something moves or changes, thus ending the stalemate. So far, nothing of consequence has changed the position of either side.

The question then, is what COULD change which would be large enough to end the stalemate?

The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine. Yasser Arafat Quotes - InspyreApp | Inspyre

Nothing . The above says it all

 

[rylah]

I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along. I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.



Netanyahu announces new settlements days before Israeli election


Benjamin Netanyahu has announced he will move ahead with a highly controversial plan to build settlements east of Jerusalem, in an apparent offering to hardline nationalist voters less than a week before a general election.

Israel’s prime minister said he would reopen the long-dormant project to build 3,500 homes for Jewish settlers in one of the most sensitive areas of the occupied West Bank.

Palestinians and their global backers argue the plan would virtually cut the West Bank into two enclaves and completely encircle Palestinian neighbourhoods in the holy city. It has long been seen as an impassable barrier to any viable future Palestinian state. Upwards of 2,000 Bedouin people living in E1 could also be displaced.

The analysis from The Guardian is more on the sensationalist than on the factual side.

Ma'ale Adumim is an integral part of Jerusalem,
as far as I see, it was never assumed to be included in the autonomy.
The 3,500 homes, are actually apartment units, can be 3,500 private houses, or 65 level towers,
in any variation. Basically all aligned with the TAMA100 trajectory, infrastructure development plan,
to make Jerusalem the largest city in the country.

Abu Dis, as designated in Trump Plan for the Arab capital is outside E1.
The PA comments are overall comical, just last week they declared issuing building permits in C.
Bedouins might be required to move, though we haven't seen the planning, but it won't be displacement, that's a blood libel. More likely a financial package with infrastructure in nearby location.

And let me explain one simple thing, they claim new neighborhoods will encircle the neighborhoods under PA control, but they're already encircled, have been this ever since they had it, neither geographically creates any enclaves. It's evident for anyone who drives around in a car - everything closely encircles everything, especially in the area of Jerusalem. Probably half of what looks as separate villages on the map are in short walking range, and when in such proximity basically indistinguishable.

(To conclude)
Basically add the 3,500 apartments or not, the Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem anyway encircled by Jewish once and vice versa. To claim that this prevents their statehood, adds to a whole bunch of their other ridiculous excuses for their dysfunction.

And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.

A leader of his caliber?

He's a politician - like any other, with an eye towards re-election, and a base to pander to.

He's never done anything to indicate a support for a two state solution - never.

So what do you think his aims are?

Yes, a leader of his caliber.

Of course a politician, only not like any other, rather most successful PM in modern Israel.
Has his significant place in Jewish history specifically, and as one of the most virtuous and influential leaders in modern history.

There're politicians, and there're outstanding leaders who set the course of history.
And I've never voted for him, or agree with many of his decisions, it's just giving a person his due.

Israel, though this may be taken for granted, turned into world's "Start Up Nation" with Netanyahu,
and it wouldn't be a far stretch to say, with kindness from G-d, the geo-political and economical edge associated with the country today, was for the most part, largely gained during his leadership.

As for the "2 state solution", it seems you just lack basic knowledge.
Netanyahu voted for Gaza disengagement, transferred Hebron to control of PA, and all along the years committed to this idea (including the monumental Bar-Ilan lecture), in spite of wide disagreement from his camp,including just recently. That he even promotes the Trump plan so eagerly, which mostly is a practical vision for that state, further confirms favoring the trajectory of separation as viable option.

As for his aims, I still don't assume to know.
To grasp at the obvious in short sight, doesn't contribute to understanding the motivation behind the actions in a complex situation.

 

[rylah]

The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is a stalemate. The status quo will continue until something moves or changes, thus ending the stalemate. So far, nothing of consequence has changed the position of either side.

The question then, is what COULD change which would be large enough to end the stalemate?

If the stalemate is the assumption that Israel practically can't apply sovereignty to all of the land and remain democratic, then I don't buy it. What simply needs to be done is what the International law prescribes - separation of militants from civilian population.

However to go along with the conversation - much can happen:

- Left can be elected and form coalition with Arabs
- Immigration mass influx from South American countries
- Natural demographic shift, crowding of Israel's central area

Or the Trump plan, and for that Arabs need a leader who can do "Jihad on Jihad".