True Face Of Islam in Saudia Arabia

[ajwps]

Saudi Enforcers of Religious Rules Feared

Fri Nov 21, 5:19 AM ET

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_religious_po lice_1

By ADNAN MALIK, Associated Press Writer

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - Word that authorities were coming spread through Riyadh's rundown, busy Batha market. Merchants hastily dropped their shutters. Shoppers hid, some ran, some were caught.

It wasn't a narcotics bust or one of the government's widely publicized raids on suspected terrorists. This was a sweep by the muttawas, or religious police, rounding up Muslim men — Saudis and foreigners alike — and forcing them to go to the mosque at prayer time.

The muttawas, backed by the Saudi government, say they are simply working for Islam. But some see them as symbols of intolerance that can breed extremism, and their methods and philosophy are coming under scrutiny as Saudis confront terrorism at home.

Ghassan Ahmed, a 32-year-old Saudi businessman, said the muttawas were "there to punish and not protect."

"It's because of people like these that Saudi Arabia gets a bad image outside. They have turned our beautiful religion upside down," he said.

Abdumohsin Addawood, a political analyst at Riyadh's Imam Mohammed bin Saudi Islamic University, said "interaction and dialogue" was needed to curb some overzealous muttawas. But he said the entire system shouldn't be thrown out.

"If we go to the roots of Islam, there should be people trying to remind others of the virtue of doing right, because people tend to be lazy and forget," Addawood said. "The role of the muttawas is to advise or remind and not to force, but unfortunately some are overdoing it."

Muttawas are easy to spot with their untrimmed beards and calf-length robes adopted from the times of the 7th century Muslim prophet, Muhammad. Officially, they are agents of the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, whose chief has Cabinet rank. Officials of the committee could not be reached for comment, despite repeated calls from The Associated Press.

The influence of the muttawas is rooted in the special relationship between the Saudi royal family and the religious establishment. An alliance between the Saudi dynasty and Sheik Mohammad Abdul-Wahab, the 18th century founder of the country's strict Islamic doctrine, helped bring the Al Sauds to power.

"There is nothing wrong in guiding and showing people the right path," said Mohammed, a 22-year-old Saudi who is studying religion in hopes of becoming a muttawa. He gave only his first name, for fear speaking publicly about the muttawas would ruin his chances of becoming one.

That path, according to the Saudi version of Islam, is a narrow one.

Men must go to the mosque to pray five times a day. Alcohol is banned in Saudi Arabia, which has no movie theaters. Women — Muslim and non-Muslim — have to cover themselves from head to toe in public. Unrelated men and women are not allowed to mingle in shops, restaurants or on the streets. Women cannot drive, and can only be driven by a relative or a professional driver. The sexes are segregated in government establishments like schools and workplaces.

Muttawas, armed with knowledge of Islam and sometimes with sticks or camel-hide whips, roam in four-wheel-drive vehicles. Those who have run afoul of the muttawas say they cannot be reasoned with or bribed, only endured.

"Every time I see them I just make a run for it," said Farid, a 27-year-old electronics salesman from Bangladesh who has a shop in Batha market.

Farid, a Muslim, remembers the time he got caught. The muttawas frog-marched him to the mosque, where he had to sit through an hour-long lecture on religion. Repeat violators can be jailed or deported.

"If someone wants to pray he will, but no one has the right to impose religion" on others, said Farid, who gave only his first name.

Batha market is a popular hunting ground for the muttawa. Thousands of Saudis and foreigners — mostly Asians from the Indian subcontinent or the Far East — converge every day on the busy network of shopping centers stretching several miles in all directions.

Under Saudi law, all citizens must be Muslim. Non-Muslim foreigners sometimes get caught up in the muttawa sweeps. The kingdom forbids non-Muslim public worship among the country's estimated 7 million expatriate workers, around half a million of whom are Christian. The kingdom also prohibits non-Muslim religious literature and public display of the symbols of other religions.

Larry, 39, a computer programmer from the Philippines who gave only his first name, said he had been jailed for a day on three different occasions, including once for possessing a Bible.

"I told them that Christianity is my parents' gift to me and they let me go" after confiscating his Bible, Larry said.

In January, at least half a dozen Christian Filipinos were deported, after the muttawas found them holding religious gatherings, a diplomat in the kingdom said on condition of anonymity. Several others reportedly were arrested and deported in sweeps in 1998 and 1999 for similar reasons, including distributing Christian literature in Arabic.

Some Saudis are questioning whether the Islam enforced by the muttawa feeds militancy. Most of the suicide hijackers who committed the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States were Saudi, and such violence came home with a series of May 12 suicide bombings in the Saudi capital. Despite a crackdown since May that has seen some 600 arrests, suicide bombers struck again in Riyadh on Nov. 8.

The Sept. 11 attacks and the Riyadh suicide bombings all have been blamed on al-Qaida, the terror network that has declared the Saudi ruling family too close to the United States and insufficiently Islamic.

As rulers of the birthplace of Islam and guardian of the faith's two holiest shrines, the Saudi royal family cannot afford to have its Islamic credentials questioned.

 

[5stringJeff]

I wonder why the Muslims are so intolerant of even allowing other religious views to be heard. Could it be because they are afraid of the free exchange of ideas? Could it be because people will find other religions more attractive?

 

[jimnyc]

Rather disgusting, but I was aware of that already.

 

[ajwps]

I wonder why the Muslims are so intolerant of even allowing other religious views to be heard. Could it be because they are afraid of the free exchange of ideas? Could it be because people will find other religions more attractive?

gop_jeff

The intolerance of Islamics is actually for neither of your reasons. The Islamic baby is weaned at it's mother's breast with the story of the prophet Mohammad and his Qur'an bible.

Each Muslim child is taught from the time it can understand that there is no other religion or belief but Islam. That all unbelievers (called infidels) are evil and deserve only death unless they convert to Islam.

They are never taught to read or learn anything. The only thing that they can read, and read it they do over and over and over again throught the years of their life is the Qur'an. Each child is taught that killing and death is a virtue and that life, morality and virtue are satanic. They are taught that to die for their god Allah as a Shahid (martyr) is the only thing that brings happiness. They are promised a paradise filled with everything that is pleasurble including the famous virgins and the not so well known sinless enjoyment of young boys (pure as pearls) for mutual sex or homosexual pedophilia. This was the practice of their prophet Mohammad who raped his cousin and married a child under 10 years of age.

They believe that all other people on earth are devils and deserve death. That the world is to be totally Islamic and everyone must believe in their god. To tolerate or understand other's religion is by itself worthy of death. The Muslims kill their own when they question this belief in the (moon-god) allah.

They can no more find another religion attractive than you can find comfort by having your skin flayed from your body. They are not allowed to read and thereby can't read or know anything but their Qur'an and exactly what they are taught and what is in their Qur'an.

Islam is not a religion of peace or goodness. It is one of the vilest religions ever to be on this planet. They actually kill more Muslims than they do the infidels (you, me and everyone else not Muslim).

The following is a picture of how they practice and seek their goal of death and paradise. Turn on your speakers to hear the sound of their beliefs.

http://muslims.homestead.com/muslimchildrenmartyrs.html

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by ajwps
gop_jeff

The intolerance of Islamics is actually for neither of your reasons. The Islamic baby is weaned at it's mother's breast with the story of the prophet Mohammad and his Qur'an bible.

Each Muslim child is taught from the time it can understand that there is no other religion or belief but Islam. That all unbelievers (called infidels) are evil and deserve only death unless they convert to Islam.

They are never taught to read or learn anything. The only thing that they can read, and read it they do over and over and over again throught the years of their life is the Qur'an. Each child is taught that killing and death is a virtue and that life, morality and virtue are satanic. They are taught that to die for their god Allah as a Shahid (martyr) is the only thing that brings happiness. They are promised a paradise filled with everything that is pleasurble including the famous virgins and the not so well known sinless enjoyment of young boys (pure as pearls) for mutual sex or homosexual pedophilia. This was the practice of their prophet Mohammad who raped his cousin and married a child under 10 years of age.

They believe that all other people on earth are devils and deserve death. That the world is to be totally Islamic and everyone must believe in their god. To tolerate or understand other's religion is by itself worthy of death. The Muslims kill their own when they question this belief in the (moon-god) allah.

They can no more find another religion attractive than you can find comfort by having your skin flayed from your body. They are not allowed to read and thereby can't read or know anything but their Qur'an and exactly what they are taught and what is in their Qur'an.

Islam is not a religion of peace or goodness. It is one of the vilest religions ever to be on this planet. They actually kill more Muslims than they do the infidels (you, me and everyone else not Muslim).

The following is a picture of how they practice and seek their goal of death and paradise. Turn on your speakers to hear the sound of their beliefs.

http://muslims.homestead.com/muslimchildrenmartyrs.html

So why does distain for freedom of worship vary so much from one predominantly Muslim country to another? Why do we not see this sort of thing in Malaysia or Turkey?

 

[ajwps]

SLC

So why does distain for freedom of worship vary so much from one predominantly Muslim country to another? Why do we not see this sort of thing in Malaysia or Turkey?

AJWPS: You bring up an excellent point of speculation. It appears that the different Islamic countries have Mullahs or Clerics that teach the Qur'an according to their individual degree of corruption of their bible book and personal greed. Somewhat like the different denominations of the Christian and Jewish faiths but to a much less degree of potential Islamic terminal fatality. (Except in Northern Ireland).

Some Muslim countries have a more secular government that controls to some degree the Islamic religious but only to a measure. The leaders of Turkey fear Islamic retribution if they govern with a degree of freedom and equality. Currently happening as we speak, the Turkish are being attacked and killed by their Islamic population.

Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan and many far flung Islamic countries act according to their religious leader’s orders as they see the very same Qur'an.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
I wonder why the Muslims are so intolerant of even allowing other religious views to be heard. Could it be because they are afraid of the free exchange of ideas? Could it be because people will find other religions more attractive?

I've been a bit curious about this as well. I've read quite a few stories (and posted a few here) where Muslims needed to leave their countries or go into hiding when changing their faith. I've asked the question over and over and never recieved a reply - why would they be in fear for their lives for simply changing their faith? Are they somehow a threat to society when they no longer follow the Qu'ran? This intolerance is very sad.

 

[ajwps]

Jimnyc

I've been a bit curious about this as well. I've read quite a few stories (and posted a few here) where Muslims needed to leave their countries or go into hiding when changing their faith. I've asked the question over and over and never recieved a reply - why would they be in fear for their lives for simply changing their faith? Are they somehow a threat to society when they no longer follow the Qu'ran? This intolerance is very sad.

Jim the answer to your questions seems rather straightforward and uncomplicated. Qur'an says with no ambiguity that unbelievers must suffer the fate of death as ordered by Allah or live by conversion to Islam. So much more for those who try to leave the truth of Mohammad the prophet and his Qur'an. You needn't look any further than the Arabs hung upside down in death being shot and burned if they are thought to be spies against Islam. If a Jew converts to Hinduism or Zoroastrianism, there is no death sentence pronounced upon him by the Jewish people.

The Islamic in the following post finds President George Bush's proclamation of Islam being a peaceful religion meant to divide the Islamic factions which is resulting in the killing of Muslims by other Muslims.

http://www.todayislam.com/converts/reverts_or_converts.htm

Divide Muslims

Now we know that Mr. Bush is not promoting Islam by any stretch of the imagination. However, he still could not afford to say something derogatory against all the Muslims in the world by attacking Islam. That would then unite all the Muslims against America (at least most of them).

In fact it was to the advantage of the Americans to make statements that would help divide the Muslims over the situation existing in Afghanistan and the situation that was sure to occur. By making this statement, he left the door open for the Muslims who did not want to see any problem between the materialism of the West (which they personally enjoyed or would like to enjoy) and the sacrificing of those who were willing to stand up against the tyranny and oppression of the Western society and all that comes along with it.

So the strategy was to say things that made certain Muslims look bad while at the same time not exactly attacking Islam. This led up to the next desirable situation for shayton: Divide the Muslims against each other. So, now we had "mainstream Muslims" and "fundamentalist Muslims" and "terrorist Islam" and "modern Islam." It worked too. The Muslims did the thing that the non-Muslims could never have done. The Muslims defeated themselves. Anytime that Muslims fight Muslims and Muslims kill Muslims, then Allah's Protection is lifted from them and they will loose. That is what happened.

 

[5stringJeff]

ajwps:

You've given some great examples to back up my original point that Muslims are intolerant of other religions. My question is why they are so intolerant.

 

[ajwps]

"You've given some great examples to back up my original point that Muslims are intolerant of other religions. My question is why they are so intolerant."

Muslims are basically intolerant of others because Islam is the antithesis of tolerance. Tolerance, mercy and justice are based upon western theology while the Qur'an theology teaches there is no tolerance, mercy or justice for anyone but Muslims in this galaxy.

_________________
"Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it. --Woodrow Wilson"

Woodrow Wilson was also the progenitor of the League of Nations. Although a lofty concept, the reality of a peaceful world can only exist with civilized humanity.

We fool ourselves when we believe that humans soar above the beasts. Animals kill to eat their kill while the human kills out of the lack of humanity. A very cynical outlook on humanity.

 

[Annie]

GOP Jeff, I just found this at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm

by following the different sections, you can get a feel for the Koran.

First Period

Suras 103, 91, 106, 101, 95, 102,104, 82, 92, 105, rhapsodies, which may have been composed before Mohammed conceived the idea of a Divine mission, or of a revelation direct from Heaven.

Second Period (the opening of Mohammed's ministry)

Sura 96, the command to "recite in the name of the Lord"; sura 113, on the unity and eternity of the Deity; sura 74, the command to preach, the denunciation of one of the chiefs of Mecca who scoffed at the resurrection, unbelievers threatened with hell; sura 111, Abu Lahab (the Prophet's uncle) and his wife are cursed.

Third Period (from the beginning of Mohammed's public ministry to the Abyssinian emigration)

Suras 87, 97, 88, 80, 81, 84, 86, 90, 85, 83, 78, 77, 76, 75, 70, 109, 107, 55, 56, descriptions of the resurrection, paradise, and hell, with references to the growing opposition of the Koreish tribe.

Fourth Period (from the sixth to the tenth year of Mohammed's ministry)

Suras 67, 53, 32, 39, 73, 79, 54, 34, 31, 69, 68, 41, 71, 52, 50, 45, 44, 37, 30, 26, 15, 51, narratives from the Jewish Scriptures and from rabbinical and Arab legends; the temporary compromise with idolatry is connected with sura 53.

Fifth Period (from the tenth year of Mohammed's ministry to the Flight from Mecca)

Suras 46, 72, 35, 36, 19, 18, 27, 42, 40, 38, 25, 20, 43, 12, 11,10,14, 6, 64, 28, 22, 21,17,16, 13, 29, 7, 113, 114. The suras of this period contain some narratives from the Gospel, enjoin the rites of pilgrimage, refute the cavillings of the Koreish, and contain vivid descriptions of the resurrection, judgment, heaven, and hell, with proofs of God's unity, power, and providence. Gradually the suras become longer, some of them filling many pages. In the later suras of the fifth period Medina passages are often interpolated.

Last Period (suras revealed at Medina)

This period includes the following suras:

Sura 98: on good and bad Jews and Christians.
Sura 2, the longest in the Koran, is called the "Sura of the Cow" from the red heifer described in verse 67 as having been sacrificed by the Israelites at the direction of Moses. It is a collection of passages on various subjects, delivered during the first two or three years after the Flight. The greater portion relates to the Jews, who are sometimes exhorted and sometimes reprobated. Biblical and rabbinical stories abound. This sura contains the order to change the Qibla (or direction at prayer) a denunciation of the disaffected, citizens of Medina, injunctions to fight, permission to bear arms in the sacred months and much matter of a legislative character promulgated on first reaching Medina, with passages of a later date interpolated.
Sura 3 belongs partly to the time immediately after the Battle of Behr. The Jews are referred to in terms of hostility. The interview with Christian deputation from Najran (verses 57-63) is of a later date. Passages pertaining to the farewell pilgrimage are introduced with other (probably) earlier texts on the rites of pilgrimage.
Sura 8 contains instructions on the division of spoil at Bedr. Some parts are in the old Meccan style and the Koreish are frequently referred to. In sura 47 war and slaughter are enjoined, and idolaters of Mecca threatened. In sura 62 the Jews are denounced for their ignorance; the Friday service is to take precedence of secular engagements. In sura 5 the Jews are reviled; the doctrines of the Christians are controverted; it contains also civil ordinances and miscellaneous instructions.
Sura 59, on the siege and expulsion of the Banu Nadhir.
Sura 4 entitled "women", from the large portion devoted to the treatment of wives and relation of sexes. There are also ordinances on the law of inheritance and general precepts, social and political. Idolatrous Meccans are to be shunned, and there are animadversions against the Jews. The "disaffected" are blamed for taking the part of the Jews.
Sura 65: on divorce and kindred subjects, with some religious observations.
Sura 63: menances against 'Abdallah ibn Obey for his treasonable language on the expedition against the Banu Mustalick.
Sura 24: vindication of 'Ayisha, with the law of evidence for conjugal unfaithfulness, and miscellaneous precepts.
Sura 33, composed of portions covering the year A. H. 5. The marriage of the Prophet with Zeinab, wife of his adopted son, is sanctioned. There are various passages on the conjugal relations of Mohammed, the siege of Medina, and the fall of the Banu Qoreitza.
Sura 57: injunctions to fight and contribute towards the expenses of war. The disaffected are warned. Christians are mentioned in kindly terms.
Sura 61: on war; speedy victory is promised. -- The remaining auras belong exclusively to the last five years of the Prophet's life.
Sura 48 refers to the truce of Hodeibia, and the prospect of victory and spoil to be obtained elsewhere.
Sura 60: on the treatment of the women who, after the truce, came over from Mecca; idolaters of Mecca to be shunned.
Sura 66: on the affair of Mohammed and the Coptic maid.
Sura 49: blaming the profession of the Bedouin Arabs as insincere, chiding the deputation which called out rudely at Mohammed's door, and exhorting believers against distrust and uncharitableness among themselves.
Sura 9 treats of the campaign to Tebuk (A. H.. 9). It opens with the "release" promulgated at the pilgrimage of the same year and declares the antagonism of Islam to all other religions. All but Muslims are excluded from Mecca and the rites of pilgrimage. Idolaters are threatened with slaughter and slavery. War is declared against Jews and Christians until they are humbled and pay tribute. This aura is called "the crusade chapter", and in the early campaigns was often read on the field before battle.
DOCTRINE

The Catholic Church Theological Site Catholic Church Theological Information Site

 

[Annie]

sorry about all those repetitious links, I don't have a handle on this yet.

:

 

[Dan]

I wonder why the Muslims are so intolerant of even allowing other religious views to be heard. Could it be because they are afraid of the free exchange of ideas? Could it be because people will find other religions more attractive?

Not arguing with you Jeff, Muslims are definitely intolerant. And, I have no explanation why. But, we should really admit that, maybe not to this extent overall but still some, many religions, Christianity included, are rather intolerant of other religions. Christianity teaches that Christ is the only way to salvation, which is a pretty way of saying "if ya ain't a christian, you're going to hell". I think your last sentence has a lot of answers in it. yeah, I think that people are generally afraid to hear about other religions, for fear that they'll get brainwashed or something into believing what they say.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Dan

"Not arguing with you Jeff, Muslims are definitely intolerant. And, I have no explanation why."

The religion of Islam is intolerant as evidenced by its own teachings.

To know a person’s religion we need not listen to his profession of faith but must find his brand of intolerance.

ATTRIBUTION: Eric Hoffer

:ali:

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Dan
Not arguing with you Jeff, Muslims are definitely intolerant. And, I have no explanation why. But, we should really admit that, maybe not to this extent overall but still some, many religions, Christianity included, are rather intolerant of other religions. Christianity teaches that Christ is the only way to salvation, which is a pretty way of saying "if ya ain't a christian, you're going to hell". I think your last sentence has a lot of answers in it. yeah, I think that people are generally afraid to hear about other religions, for fear that they'll get brainwashed or something into believing what they say.

Dan,

While what you said is true, the difference is that there are not any Christian nations out there that disallow freedom of religious thought. (Except maybe the Vatican.) My personal opinion is that Christians are confident that, in the marketplace of ideas, Christianity can hold its own.

 

[Annie]

GOP Jeff, ever hear of the Jesuits? Freedom of thought? They help define it.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

"Dan, While what you said is true, the difference is that there are not any Christian nations out there that disallow freedom of religious thought. (Except maybe the Vatican.) My personal opinion is that Christians are confident that, in the marketplace of ideas, Christianity can hold its own."

"Onward Christian soldiers", the middle age war song of the Crusaders against all those other religions who were not believers in Christianity were subject to subjugation and death.

The Christian peoples of South America, Africa, North America and just about anywhere Christianity is now found was forced on the indigenous populations of these countries by torture and death.

The Baptists of North America today spend millions of dollars pretending to be Jewish who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. They explain that there is no contradiction as everybody is under the protection of Jesus. They approach those who have no basis in their own faith and use guile and subterfuge to convert them into the army of Christ.

ETC......

Yep, in your opinion, Christianity is confident in itself with its ideas and beliefs to hold its own. The quote below seems to illustrate perfectly the strength of a person's religious beliefs.

To know a person’s religion we need not listen to his profession of faith but must find his brand of intolerance.

ATTRIBUTION: Eric Hoffer

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by ajwps
"Onward Christian soldiers", the middle age war song of the Crusaders against all those other religions who were not believers in Christianity were subject to subjugation and death.

The Christian peoples of South America, Africa, North America and just about anywhere Christianity is now found was forced on the indigenous populations of these countries by torture and death.

I make no apologies for the actions of those who killed, thinking they were doing Christ's will, when they obviously were not. However, many of the Spanish missionaries (not explorers) who came to the New World did a lot of good for the indigenous people they served, teaching them better farming techniques, how to read, etc.
Also, many Christians in this world are still persecuted, especially in Asia, China, and Muslim nations. And they were persecuted while spreading Christianity throughout the Roman Empire, barbarian Europe, the Near East, etc.

The Baptists of North America today spend millions of dollars pretending to be Jewish who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. They explain that there is no contradiction as everybody is under the protection of Jesus. They approach those who have no basis in their own faith and use guile and subterfuge to convert them into the army of Christ.

I'm not familiar with this program at all. Care to cite a source or web site for our benefit?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by gop_jeff]

"I make no apologies for the actions of those who killed, thinking they were doing Christ's will, when they obviously were not."

'Those' who killed in the name of Christ are much too numerous to mention. To use the excuse that you can make no apologies for their actions is the equivalent of the amazing event that happened in the early 1960s.

After Adolph Eichmann, one of Nazis responsible for the murder of millions of Jews and gentiles was captured and tried in Israel. He made no bones that he was this man but said he was just following orders.

After a lengthy trial was found guilty of crimes against mankind and sentenced to be hanged until he was dead. Before he went to the gallows, he was asked by the judges if he would like to make peace with his maker. He agreed and an Episcopalian minister sent to him. After he was hung, the media of that time asked the minister if he had made peace with G-d.

The minister said that he had accepted the shed blood of Jesus as his savior and was forgiven for his sins on earth. That he was now living with Jesus in his mansions in the sky.

One reporter asked the minister about those millions of men, women, children and babies he murdered that never accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. The minister said with no apology, (paraphrased) 'oh they are burning in a permanent hell fire and brimstone.

Moral: The murderer went to live with Jesus in heaven and the murdered millions burn in hellfire. That sounds fair to me. Does it to you?

"However, many of the Spanish missionaries (not explorers) who came to the New World did a lot of good for the indigenous people they served, teaching those better farming techniques, how to read, etc."

That's nice but you shouldn't skip the part of the methods the Spanish missionaries and conquistadors used to convert the native Indians of the countries they captured. They burned them alive, split them open or just simply murdered them with swords with the option of joining up with Christ.

"Also, many Christians in this world are still persecuted, especially in Asia, China, and Muslim nations. And they were persecuted while spreading Christianity throughout the Roman Empire, barbarian Europe, the Near East, etc."

Is that an excuse for the actions of Christian conversions of natives with their own religions they had for centuries?

"I'm not familiar with this program at all. Care to cite a source or web site for our benefit?"

No problem whatsoever. The following two are just a few of many sites demonstrating Christian tolerance for other religions.

http://www.tfmc.us/html/news/reveals.html


http://www.sbts.edu/mohler/FidelitasRead.php?article=fidel033

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by ajwps
'Those' who killed in the name of Christ are much too numerous to mention. To use the excuse that you can make no apologies for their actions is the equivalent of the amazing event that happened in the early 1960s.

Look, I'm not going to make excuses for their actions, because I think they were wrong to do what they did. Ultimately, however, their actions will be judged by God, not me.

Moral: The murderer went to live with Jesus in heaven and the murdered millions burn in hellfire. That sounds fair to me. Does it to you?

Again, God is the ultimate judge, not me. I will leave the fairness of it to Him.

That's nice but you shouldn't skip the part of the methods the Spanish missionaries and conquistadors used to convert the native Indians of the countries they captured. They burned them alive, split them open or just simply murdered them with swords with the option of joining up with Christ.

Again, I'm not making excuses... see above.

The following two are just a few of many sites demonstrating Christian tolerance for other religions.
http://www.tfmc.us/html/news/reveals.html
http://www.sbts.edu/mohler/FidelitasRead.php?article=fidel033

So the Southern Baptists decided to try and convert Jews to Christianity? So what? I think these people prove my original point: they are confident that, in the free exchange of ideas, Christianity will be accepted by many who hear it. If this upsets you, organize a group from your synagouge to try to convert Chirstians (or Muslims, or atheists) to Judaism.