transplant organ trafficking

[tommywho70x]

this topic is tremendously volatile and every discussion i have seen has deteriorated into nonsense. i'm hoping this crew is going to be able to handle it intelligently.

there are at least two distinct moral issues. clearly, if a person or the next of kin of a deceased person does not consent to allow transplant-able organs to be harvested from their corpse, one should think there has been a crime committed.

the chinese have been accused of harvesting organs from prisoners without consent. the israelis have also been accused of non-consensual organ harvesting including unfounded accusations of israeli disaster relief workers harvesting organs from haitian earthquake victims.

the other, only slightly less gruesome scenario is the consensual purchase of organs for profit. there was an indictment in new jersey last summer involving organ gray marketing that implicated orthodox jews and the new jersey governor.

can this community dig into this and discuss these issues with some insight and reason?

 

[Oddball]

This is what happens when it's declared that you don't own your body.

 

[johnrocks]

I should be allowed to sell my organs if I desire, they should belong to me but they really don't now do they?

 

[tommywho70x]

I should be allowed to sell my organs if I desire, they should belong to me but they really don't now do they?

i'm pretty sure that you can sell organs --- you'll probably find something like bodyparts.com set up to broker it over the web.

there's not much you can sell off and still live. i hear you can get a pretty good price for an extra kidney, but then you've get big problems if the other one fails.

 

[johnrocks]

I should be allowed to sell my organs if I desire, they should belong to me but they really don't now do they?

i'm pretty sure that you can sell organs --- you'll probably find something like bodyparts.com set up to broker it over the web.

there's not much you can sell off and still live. i hear you can get a pretty good price for an extra kidney, but then you've get big problems if the other one fails.

Can't legally sell them in the USA and people donate one of their kidneys all the time, I just think that I should be able to, what if a person was terminal with lung cancer but had good kidneys and other parts, why not sell them now to help loved ones financially..

 

[JBeukema]

This is what happens when it's declared that you don't own your body.

Can you own anything when you're dead?

 

[DiamondDave]

This is what happens when it's declared that you don't own your body.

Can you own anything when you're dead?

Just as your will and everything can be carried out after your death... unless you think other property can be seized by the state upon your demise, to do as the state sees fit

 

[Oddball]

Why shouldn't my heirs get to part me out like an old Chevy?...It's not like I'm (ab)using my liver anymore.

 

[Oddball]

I like the scene Walter E. Williams sets up best...

Undertaker, to Dr. Williams' daughter after his untimely demise:
We're sorry for your loss, Miss Williams. Would it be OK if we used your father's organs to transplant and save the lives of others?

Daughter (distraught): No, no...I want to send my father to his reward just the way he has always been!

Undertaker: We're giving $10,000 for kidneys, $25,000 for livers, and $40,000 for hearts.

Daughter: You want his retinas, too?

 

[Dr Gregg]

this topic is tremendously volatile and every discussion i have seen has deteriorated into nonsense. i'm hoping this crew is going to be able to handle it intelligently.

there are at least two distinct moral issues. clearly, if a person or the next of kin of a deceased person does not consent to allow transplant-able organs to be harvested from their corpse, one should think there has been a crime committed.

the chinese have been accused of harvesting organs from prisoners without consent. the israelis have also been accused of non-consensual organ harvesting including unfounded accusations of israeli disaster relief workers harvesting organs from haitian earthquake victims.

the other, only slightly less gruesome scenario is the consensual purchase of organs for profit. there was an indictment in new jersey last summer involving organ gray marketing that implicated orthodox jews and the new jersey governor.

can this community dig into this and discuss these issues with some insight and reason?

I don't think there should be a crime for relatives denying organ transplantation, but if the deceased is registered, that should be the deciding factor, not what he relative says. Not sure it that's how its done. I do think its unethical to deny someone a chance at life for organs that are just going to become worm food anyway.

I love what rightwinger brought up in the other thread. If you are willing to donate your organs, you get priority for an organ that becomes available over someone who is not willing to donate organs upon death. If no organ donor is a match, then obviously it can go to the person who needs it, regardless of whether they are an organ donor or not. If you are not willing to donate your organs upon death, why should you get an organ to survive. Maybe more people would think twice about opting out, unless there is some religious reason which I think for some religions that is an issue, as stupid as it may sound to me

Harvesting from living patients, I can't see anybody not being against that. ANd selling your organs is also unethical as it would mainly effect poor people who are desperate and cause health issue for them. That I guess can be debatable.

 

[Dr Gregg]

If more people would register as organ donors, there wouldn't be as much of a black market product, as millions of organs go to waste cause people don't want to donate their organs, they would rather have it be worm food

 

[Oddball]

What's in it for them?

 

[Dr Gregg]

What's in it for them?

The chance that if they or their loved ones need a new organ, it would be more readily available

What do they lose? Absolutely nothing,they are dead and will rot away anyway

 

[Oddball]

No, what's in it for them?

Your reasons for why you'd do something are irrelevant to someone else.

 

[JBeukema]

No, what's in it for them?

Your reasons for why you'd do something are irrelevant to someone else.

Leave it to Dude to demand someone find a way to satisfy his selfishness to convince him to allow some good to come of his organs after he's dead. Not surprising, seeing as he is the same poster who argues for an aristocracy and derides any attempt to help others.


You truly are a shitty character.

 

[Abelian Sea]

You truly are a shitty character.

Whether or not that is true, the fact remains that Dude's organs are his, to be dispensed with as he Wills, just like the rest of his estate.

Personally, I am an organ donor, based on the general feeling that when I'm done with the weird-looking animal which I currently inhabit, I have no problem with whatever bits of it that are still useful doing some good (and I consider the continuation of human life to be, in the absence of extremely compelling and individual-specific evidence to contrary, a good thing).

However, if someone wants their physical bits to be incinerated or entombed or green-buried or otherwise sanitarily disposed of when they're done with them, I think that should respected, even if it means depriving some worthy soul of another x years of productive life. It's their bits, not the public's.

Full disclosure, I would have a problem with acquiescing to someone's will that their remains be strewn about the public square, raw. That would create a positive health hazard. Your right to have your estate used in an injurious manner ends where other people's rights begin. That doesn't mean that others have a right to use your estate in whatever manner they think best, however, even if that manner would serve the greater good.

clearly, if a person or the next of kin of a deceased person does not consent to allow transplant-able organs to be harvested from their corpse, one should think there has been a crime committed.

I agree.

the chinese have been accused of harvesting organs from prisoners without consent.

The case of prisoners starts to impinge on a gray area, as they are generally considered to have diminished rights, in light of their infringements of same, but in this case I personally would say that, in the absence of law that specifies otherwise, their remains (and the rest of their estate, minus whatever unpaid fines they have imposed by their actions) should remain as sacrosanct as those of the general populace.

the other, only slightly less gruesome scenario is the consensual purchase of organs for profit.

Hm. Now this is could get sticky.

If one is an organ donor, then one has consigned one's organs to a certain distribution system and that acceptable (and, in my opinion, noble) will should not be interfered with.

On the other hand, in light of my feeling that one's body parts are one's own, I'm not sure I could mount much of objection to one willing one's bits to, for example, a particular person, to be disposed of as that person saw fit.

Of course, in most countries, the selling of human organs is illegal, and not unreasonably so, I think. At the very least, the handling of such medically sensitive material ought to be carefully overseen, so thorough regulation is called for. Moreover, an open market for human body parts would explicitly create an incentive for, shall we say, dastardly behavior. It would, in practice, be sheer poor governance to allow for the auctioning of parts of humans (consider, for example, the effects of auction of whole, live, humans), even if medical/sanitation concerns could be adequately met.

So, I do not think that the selling of bits of humans, even if consensual and medically sound, should be sanctioned. That does leave open the question, in my mind, of whether one could, for example, will one's organs to be well-stored and then used, when medically necessary and appropriate, by a particular person (presumably a family member or close friend). In this case there is no commerce, and no injurious use. Nepotism, yes, but that is hardly an issue when it comes to disposition of one's estate. In this case I can think of no objection except that it is an offense to general altruism, but as I said I don't think that altruism should be a requirement on one's will.

 

[editec]

I'll start donating my blood and organs when the people putting them into somebody else start working for free.

You donate blood to the Red cross?

Good for you.

They sell it.

 

[tommywho70x]

there have been some well thought statements here as well as the usual dim bulb trash but nobody has really touched on what is truly frightening : the allegation that governments such as china and israel are involved in non-consensual organ harvesting from prisoners (often political rather than criminal) for profit.

the israelis have been repeatedly accused in the past year and seem to be standing mute. when some particularly gruesome accusations came up, i attempted to get official responses from the israeli consul in houston and the anti-defamation league. neither responded.

does anybody here have solid, verifiable evidence pointing to the truth or falsehood of these accusations?

 

[Oddball]

No, what's in it for them?

Your reasons for why you'd do something are irrelevant to someone else.

Leave it to Dude to demand someone find a way to satisfy his selfishness to convince him to allow some good to come of his organs after he's dead. Not surprising, seeing as he is the same poster who argues for an aristocracy and derides any attempt to help others.


You truly are a shitty character.

Leave it to a closet statist like you to be so arrogant that your values hierarchy should be supplanted for that of other people...At gunpoint if necessary.

You truly are a living Randian stereotype of the looter and thug.

 

[Oddball]

there have been some well thought statements here as well as the usual dim bulb trash but nobody has really touched on what is truly frightening : the allegation that governments such as china and israel are involved in non-consensual organ harvesting from prisoners (often political rather than criminal) for profit.

the israelis have been repeatedly accused in the past year and seem to be standing mute. when some particularly gruesome accusations came up, i attempted to get official responses from the israeli consul in houston and the anti-defamation league. neither responded.

does anybody here have solid, verifiable evidence pointing to the truth or falsehood of these accusations?

And that's the nut of all this: Consent.

The idea that organs should just be taken as a matter of course is just plain old ghoulish.