Torture...An American value?

[Bullypulpit]

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<blockquote>U.S. officials who take part in torture, authorize it, or even close their eyes to it, can be prosecuted by courts anywhere in the world [under international law].
<b>Kenneth Roth, executive director, Human Rights Watch, December 27, 2002</b>

U.S. Navy documents released today by the American Civil Liberties Union reveal that abuse and even torture of detainees by U.S. Marines in Iraq was widespread. . . . ACLU executive director Anthony D. Romero [said] "this kind of widespread abuse could not have taken place without a leadership failure of the highest order."
<b>American Civil Liberties Union, December 14, 2004</b>

The president insists that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will remain in office, and on December 19, Bush's chief of staff, Andrew Card Jr., said on ABC News' This Week that "Secretary Rumsfeld is doing a spectacular job and the president has great confidence in him."

However, on December 9, Senator Jeff Bingaman, Democrat of New Mexico, wrote Rumsfeld to express his "deep concern over issues related to detainees being held in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. Recent reports indicate that not only were detainees mishandled and interrogated in a manner inconsistent with the Geneva Conventions, but that subsequent internal reports of abuse appear to have been suppressed . . .</blockquote>

"...internal reports of abuse appear to have been suppressed . . ." If that isn't damning in and of itself, I don't know what is. Beginning with Alberto Gonzales' vetting and sigining off on memos which condoned mistreatment and torture of prisoners and dismissed the Geneva Convention as "quaint" and "obsolete" to the current flip-flop on the issue, the Bush administration has been complicit and complacent with regards to the mistreatment of prisoners. And let's not forget the utter contempt the Administration has displayed towards international law, save where it advances US business interests.

It also shows us that Abu Ghraib was not the result of a "few bad apples" "blowing off steam" with a few "fraternity pranks". It was the result of policy explicitly stated by the administration, and implemented in the field by members of our armed forces. That such policies would be known and condoned in the highest circles of governement, all the way up to the Oval Office, only reveals the unfitness to command at those levels.

The Administration did a grave disservice to our troops in producing the DOJ memos in an attempt to justify outright violations of international law, the Geneva Convention, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and plain human decency. The recent attempts to distance themselves from those earlier memos, with one repudiating them, shows that they <b>know</b> that they were in violation of the aforementioned laws and treaties. Their guilt is plain for all to see. Their actions brand them war-criminals and they must be brought to justice as such. This Administration and its actions represent a shameful chapter in US history...A chapter which should be brought to a close with all deliberate speed.

 

[Avatar4321]

What a society we live in when putting underwear on peoples head and forcing them to go around naked is considered torture when dictators who chop off hands, arms, legs, heads, and put men and women in unthinkable pain should be protected.

Oddly enough the only person ive ever seen ever advocating torture comes from the left of side of the political spectrum and honestly he had a pretty darn good argument for it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Bully, don't you ever tire of feeling sorry for these so called torture victims?
Still yet to see you post anything about our people of 911 or our troops over there being picked of by suicide bombers and the like!

Can't debate thei issue...Change the focus. Allright, I'll take your bait.

That are troops are being killed and maimed on a daily basis by the guerillas in Iraq is tragic enough. Compounding the tragedy is that they were put into harm's way by a reckless, feckless Administration in pursuit of an illegal, unjust and unjustifiable war.

As for the victims of 9/11, how can the measure of that act of barbarism ever be taken? But rather than bring the perpetrators of that horror to justice, Our Great Leader went haring off into Iraq, allowing bin Laden and Al Qaeda to slip away and reconstitute their forces.

The real tragedy here lies in the abuse of our forces by a Commander-in-Chief unfit for command.

 

[Bullypulpit]

What a society we live in when putting underwear on peoples head and forcing them to go around naked is considered torture when dictators who chop off hands, arms, legs, heads, and put men and women in unthinkable pain should be protected.

Oddly enough the only person ive ever seen ever advocating torture comes from the left of side of the political spectrum and honestly he had a pretty darn good argument for it.

<blockquote>Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee. - The Taguba Report</blockquote>

These and other instances of abuse and, yes, torture had been documented by Major General Antonio M. Taguba, the IRC and other international human rights agencies. No matter how you spin it, these actions are all prohibited by international treaty and law.

Your attempt to distance these abuses by contrasting them to the amputations, mutilations and other attrocities committed under Saddam Hussein's regime fails...utterly. The US is signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, conventions prohibiting torture, and the Geneva Convention. Our governement is bound by those treaties and the abuses descibed and documented are ALL proscribed by those treaties. We must hold to the highest moral standards or we can never claim victory.

Also, you conveniently ignore the fact that many of the detainees at Abu Ghraib, some 60%, were innocent bystanders caught up in random military sweeps. the rest were common criminals, with a tiny minority being "high value" guerilla leaders. But none of this justifies the abuses committed there and elsewhere. Study after study has documented that torture yields little to no useful information from the subjects. They merely tell their interrogators what they want to hear just to put a stop to the torture.

BTW, hows about you cite the source/individual advocating torture?

 

[CSM]

I can hardly wait until the ACLU runs things...what a great world we will have then, eh?

I read the article in it's entirety. Saw a lot of allegations, accusations etc. (as usual) but no proof.

"...internal reports of abuse appear to have been suppressed . . ." is what you think is proof?

How about this:

"It appears that the ACLU is an unpatriotic and perhaps treasonous organization". Proof enough?

 

[OCA]

Not a matter of debating the issue, I have said here more times than once that I am not an advocate of the torture issue. What I don't understand is all the hoopla about such petty acts when in comparison we have seen much more barbaric things. It's really a non issue at this point and I think you need to use these type of things to keep up you silliness against the administration.

Al Qaeda members are right there in Iraq so how did they slip away? And because Bin Laden has yet to be caught does not mean that he never will be!

There was no unjustifiable torture, this is made up. All is fair in love and war and yes the war is just and justified. I just wish the same indignation was expressed for the people who swung from a bridge or were beheaded than some ragheads who wore panties on their head or had to wear some shit for a while, hmmmph this pisses me off!

Everyone notice that ol'Bully has all the same talking points as Hanoi Johnny? He's a loser just the same, he just can't stand that his philosophy is unpopular and deemed anti-American by a majority of wellrounded citizens here, this is always the case with losers, they lash out in all directions before accepting the truth. One day Bully will hopefully accept the inevitable.

 

[Bonnie]

Our Consititution makes no provision for fair treatment of enemy POWS, neither does the Geneva convention. The Consititution only protects it's citizens..........

Secondly most of this is made up, there is no proof of these allegations directly linking Bush to any of this. The ACLU and top Democrats are making this an issue so they can attempt to impeach Bush.

Thirdly can you imagine if the Republicans went after Roosevelt and his administration during World War II for unfair Pow practices or encampments. Back then prisoners were killed or tortured for information then killed...........THAT'S WHAT HELPED US WIN THE WAR!!!!!!!!!

This is a war we are in........It was only after the enemy was defeated in World War II did we have the trials at Neuremburg, not DURING battle........

 

[manu1959]

i can tell you this .... they are all lucky i am not in charge

I would blowing up mosques

cutting off heads

draging them through the streets

and hanging the bodies from bridges

eye for an eye baby

naked piles and hoods......i would have attached the wires to a battery

 

[OCA]

i can tell you this .... they are all lucky i am not in charge

I would blowing up mosques

cutting off heads

draging them through the streets

and hanging the bodies from bridges

eye for an eye baby

naked piles and hoods......i would have attached the wires to a battery

Eye for an eye is the only path to victory. People like Bully do not want victory, they relish and become orgasmic at the thought of U.S. defeat anywhere anytime....sad really that a life can be so pathetic.

 

[theim]

You know I can't say that I care if captured terrorists are tortured. Some of those f'ers deserve far more than being sodomized w/ panties on their heads.

 

[Merlin1047]

Can't debate thei issue...Change the focus. Allright, I'll take your bait.

That are troops are being killed and maimed on a daily basis by the guerillas in Iraq is tragic enough. Compounding the tragedy is that they were put into harm's way by a reckless, feckless Administration in pursuit of an illegal, unjust and unjustifiable war.

As for the victims of 9/11, how can the measure of that act of barbarism ever be taken? But rather than bring the perpetrators of that horror to justice, Our Great Leader went haring off into Iraq, allowing bin Laden and Al Qaeda to slip away and reconstitute their forces.

The real tragedy here lies in the abuse of our forces by a Commander-in-Chief unfit for command.

I'm sorry, but I just can't get too excited about kicking the asses of captured terrorists. But since you seem to think that we're so wrong in our treatment of these animals, perhaps you might consider volunteering your time and efforts as a social worker in Iraq. Make sure you wear a knife-proof and non-removeable collar.

Personally, I'm sorry that we haven't lined up every one of the bastards against a wall and blown them away. That's still better treatment than they deserve.

Next time you want to expend some sympathy on these animals, you may want to review the tape of some Taliban scum blowing a woman's brains out for some infraction of their idiotic muslim cult.

 

[Bullypulpit]

It appears that moral thinking here doesn't get much beyond the pre-convential level in Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Rather handy for an authority figure (Dubbyuh and his handlers) who wants a complacent and obedient society.

 

[Bonnie]

It appears that moral thinking here doesn't get much beyond the pre-convential level in Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Rather handy for an authority figure (Dubbyuh and his handlers) who wants a complacent and obedient society.

Dubbyuh and his handlers want to put a large dent in terrorism, sorry if in that process your sensibilities are hurt!!

 

[dmp]

Who was it that said "I'd rather lower myself to their level, than have Myself lowered into a grave"?

 

[Merlin1047]

It appears that moral thinking here doesn't get much beyond the pre-convential level in Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Rather handy for an authority figure (Dubbyuh and his handlers) who wants a complacent and obedient society.

Oh poop. Here's the bottom line which you seem to ignore - if we want to win a conflict, we have to be prepared to be more ruthless, more vicious, more merciless and more implacable than the enemy we face. Some say "you're stooping to their level". That's not quite true - we should be WORSE than our enemy. We should be so not because we enjoy it, or because that is our nature, but because that is what it takes to win. And in war, coming in second is not an option. An unpleasant fact and one we should consider BEFORE we commit to fight.

It's too late now. The only sane course of action is to follow through with what we started. Backing off will encourage our enemies and bring about attacks on our own soil which will make 9-11 pale by comparison.

 

[Merlin1047]

And allow me to add a post-script. Your unsupported and incorrect assertion that GW and his administration want "a complacent and obedient society" is something you pulled out of your butt.

But I would rather live in a society which heeds the call of its government than among a pack of spineless cowards, unwilling to lift a finger in their own defense.

 

[OCA]

It appears that moral thinking here doesn't get much beyond the pre-convential level in Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Rather handy for an authority figure (Dubbyuh and his handlers) who wants a complacent and obedient society.

Bully believes in every bullshit theory and psychobabble that comes down the pike, this is a prime example.

 

[Johnney]

i can tell you this .... they are all lucky i am not in charge

I would blowing up mosques

cutting off heads

draging them through the streets

and hanging the bodies from bridges

eye for an eye baby

naked piles and hoods......i would have attached the wires to a battery

AMEN! that is what exactly needs to happen. i guess you could say in pro-torture. the end justifies the means. an American life saved.

 

[Johnney]

sorry if in that process your sensibilities are hurt!!

seems to happen alot now days. kind of sickening.

 

[freeandfun1]

Bully believes in every bullshit theory and psychobabble that comes down the pike, this is a prime example.

Bully just likes for everybody to think he is as smart as he thinks he is.

To Bully:

I do not at all believe that torture is an American value, but I sure as hell can tell that it is YOUR value. You know how I can tell? Well, you torture us every day with your bullshit!!