Zone1 Top down control or individual liberty?

[flacaltenn]

Clean start rules exist. If a thread in a protected forum starts off with some insidious racist crap,

Not really calibrated on YOUR definition of "racist crap". That's WHY I gave examples of VALID race relations topics. Do you disagree with any that i gave and consider THEM to be "racist crap". If so - your definition of racist crap is wrong.

If you see "racist crap" in another-wise "CLEAN title and OPost" report it and describe the "racist crap" part ---- that you think you see. We'll decide.

 

[BackAgain]

Not really calibrated on YOUR definition of "racist crap". That's WHY I gave examples of VALID race relations topics. Do you disagree with any that i gave and consider THEM to be "racist crap". If so - your definition of racist crap is wrong.

If you see "racist crap" in another-wise "CLEAN title and OPost" report it and describe the "racist crap" part ---- that you think you see. We'll decide.

I’m sure your decisions aren’t calibrated by my definitions. Such is life. Of course, that wouldn’t be the same thing — necessarily — as my definition being wrong.

We may yet get to see.

 

[flacaltenn]

That's when the Ignore List really shines.

It's simpler than the ignore button. Just make it personal policy to not engage or take the bait.

If you PUT people on ignore that can hurt you -- you may miss an opportunity to defend yourself. If they are harmless -- there's no loss in not seeing what they are up to. That was my policy before mod staff. When you join mod staff -- they take your "IGNORE" function away and destroy it.

Maybe that's why I prefer "personal policy" more than the button.

 

[Circe]

But, AFAIK, groups like Race and Religion always HAVE been Z1 categories for a long time! All that is new here is the green Z1 flag and the recently renewed focus on this zone as an effort to increase the "value" of these forums! The question is: what value to who?

That was an excellent, thoughtful post and I liked it.

My idea is that the basic problem with Zone 1 extra moderating is that antagonists immediately start militarizing the mods. These discussions are a form of war to destroy the enemy, so people will do ANYthing to get an advantage in war. One side, perhaps the losing side, starts reporting posts more and more to weaponize the mods. If the mods are on the left, this works pretty well and more and more banning threats are issued. (I myself haven't noticed a problem with the right about using mods as weapons, as the right tends to be more for freedom of speech.) Hanging around where banning and threats are frequently issued is no fun at all, so the zone depopulates. An unexpected consequence.

 

[AZrailwhale]

That was an excellent, thoughtful post and I liked it.

My idea is that the basic problem with Zone 1 extra moderating is that antagonists immediately start militarizing the mods. These discussions are a form of war to destroy the enemy, so people will do ANYthing to get an advantage in war. One side, perhaps the losing side, starts reporting posts more and more to weaponize the mods. If the mods are on the left, this works pretty well and more and more banning threats are issued. (I myself haven't noticed a problem with the right about using mods as weapons, as the right tends to be more for freedom of speech.) Hanging around where banning and threats are frequently issued is no fun at all, so the zone depopulates. An unexpected consequence.

It shouldn’t be an unexpected consequence, I saw it on the Amazon forums. The membership kept getting smaller and the mods kept getting more militant, banning anyone posting content they disagreed with. Near the end I decided it was a considered action by Amazon to kill the discussion boards. They finally banned me a week or so before closing the boards entirely. I’d hate to see the same thing happen here. Freedom of expression was what drew me here.

 

[Circe]

Just because we have a few areas as Zone 1 does not mean you can't start a thread (whose topic falls under those categories) in the Flame Zone, Rubber Room, or Badlands IF you want it to be a free-for-all. If insults and overused redundant oneupmanship is your thing, then by all means, use the area downstairs!

Okay, that's helpful to know. Can people post race topics, for instance, on politics or current events? Or religious topics on General Discussion? The Zone 1 particular content threads aren't useful to me because I don't like over-moderated censorship. Really, I don't know why whole topics are put out of reach when this forum already HAS the Clean Debate forum for anyone wanting discussion that is heavily moderated on touchy subjects. People wanting "clean debate" about race can just go to Clean Debate. I suppose this must have been discussed already among the mods. People simply wouldn't discuss race in Clean Debate, and that would be that. Because people like to say what they like to say.

 

[Orangecat]

I'm going to expose the elephant in the room:
This entire Zone1 controversy is rooted in 3-4 members who claim to be black and want to spew their anti-white propaganda without getting pushback.
That's how I see it. Anyone disagree?

 

[Circe]

It shouldn’t be an unexpected consequence, I saw it on the Amazon forums. The membership kept getting smaller and the mods kept getting more militant, banning anyone posting content they disagreed with. Near the end I decided it was a considered action by Amazon to kill the discussion boards. They finally banned me a week or so before closing the boards entirely. I’d hate to see the same thing happen here. Freedom of expression was what drew me here.

I didn't realize Amazon had forums. Just as well I didn't, considering your experience.

This issue of discussion censorship is extremely important and is roaring in the news right now this week. The Wall Street Journal has been following it. Apparently some recent tranny started carrying on about pronouns. Jordan Peterson, the author, got mad and said of this "Ellen Page" something like "Last year the name was Elliot!! What kind of craziness IS all this??" Twitter instantly banned him. Then another famous person protested that all Peterson had done was make a factual statement, what did Twitter have against facts??! Twitter promptly banned him. At this point a whole lot of people, with and without Names, including that congressman who wears an eye patch, jumped in on Peterson's side and daring Twitter to ban them all. Which probably Twitter will, because they have a death wish.

Then dozens and hundreds of people started appealing to Elon Musk to buy Twitter fast and FIX it ---- to stop the censorship. One guy said, rather aggressively I thought but maybe it was metaphorical, that Musk should "blow up their servers."

Yeah, freedom of expression is crucial. I don't think Twitter can survive because it started down the wrong path and is too far along now to recover. I don't bother with religion and I can do without discussing race, even though it's quite an important topic, but the censorship/eggshells thing is a wrong path and may overwhelm all discussion, and here is USMB starting down the same road that Twitter went down.

 

[EvMetro]

I don't bother with religion and I can do without discussing race, even though it's quite an important topic, but the censorship/eggshells thing is a wrong path and may overwhelm all discussion, and here is USMB starting down the same road that Twitter went down.

When we stop freely discussing topics for fear of censorship, the damage is done. By having me refuse to post on those forums out of principle and having you not doing it because you are tired of being censored, we are effectively censored, canceled, and deplatformed. This is what the msm and democrats have been doing to society.

 

[Circe]

When we stop freely discussing topics for fear of censorship, the damage is done.

Yeah, you're right: I can't discuss race anymore because of the bullying, so the damage is done, because that's an important topic.

Ah, well. Everything runs downhill: entropy. It's an out-of-control descent now in this country. Remember when people used to quote Voltaire, often, on forums, "I disagree with what you said, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"? It's been I bet 25 years since I've seen anyone post that.

 

[EvMetro]

Yeah, you're right: I can't discuss race anymore because of the bullying, so the damage is done, because that's an important topic.

Ah, well. Everything runs downhill: entropy. It's an out-of-control descent now in this country. Remember when people used to quote Voltaire, often, on forums, "I disagree with what you said, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"? It's been I bet 25 years since I've seen anyone post that.

Spot on. There won't be any intelligent discussion on those subforums once all the opposition is deplatformed like we are.

 

[monkrules]

What I've noticed recently is the high numbers of threads that are "closed to further replies." And mods' seeming willingness to delete posts for almost any reason (reasons only they understand).

It's a real bazz-killer to open a thread that, by the topic, sounds like it could be interesting - only to find, once again, that the thread has been closed.

It would make more sense, imo, to completely remove the thread, leaving no sign of it - since once the thread is "closed" it is a complete waste of time for anyone to even open it.

Once "closed," the thread is dead. It would be better to completely bury it. A lot of threads seem to be going that way under the new Z1 restrictions on the race forum.

 

[toobfreak]

That was an excellent, thoughtful post and I liked it.

Thanks, too bad it was all for naught and just lost again in the noise around here. In business, companies that fail to adapt to keep up soon go out of business and I fear that fate will eventually befall this place too, either unwilling or unable to keep up, adapt, improve, trapped in their own strident tone-deafness of always dismissing complaints or real FB as all just so much prattle by malcontents with unreasonable demands who should all just learn to sit down, shut up and get used to how things are, y'know, kinda like the Biden Administration!

My idea is that the basic problem with Zone 1 extra moderating is that antagonists immediately start militarizing the mods. These discussions are a form of war to destroy the enemy, so people will do ANYthing to get an advantage in war. One side, perhaps the losing side, starts reporting posts more and more to weaponize the mods. If the mods are on the left, this works pretty well and more and more banning threats are issued. (I myself haven't noticed a problem with the right about using mods as weapons, as the right tends to be more for freedom of speech.) Hanging around where banning and threats are frequently issued is no fun at all, so the zone depopulates. An unexpected consequence.

I wouldn't worry too much about that happening. Mods here are pretty good at responding to violations seen, not just the complaints reported, and I've read many people coming here from other forums just because that doesn't go on here as with some other sites!

 

[EvMetro]

What I've noticed recently is the high numbers of threads that are "closed to further replies." And mods' seeming willingness to delete posts for almost any reason (reasons only they understand).

It's a real bazz-killer to open a thread that, by the topic, sounds like it could be interesting - only to find, once again, that the thread has been closed.

It would make more sense, imo, to completely remove the thread, leaving no sign of it - since once the thread is "closed" it is a complete waste of time for anyone to even open it.

Once "closed," the thread is dead. It would be better to completely bury it. A lot of threads seem to be going that way under the new Z1 restrictions on the race forum.

Trust me, they DO delete plenty of threads.

 

[EvMetro]

Thanks, too bad it was all for naught and just lost again in the noise around here. In business, companies that fail to adapt to keep up soon go out of business and I fear that fate will eventually befall this place too, either unwilling or unable to keep up, adapt, improve, trapped in their own strident tone-deafness of always dismissing complaints or real FB as all just so much prattle by malcontents with unreasonable demands who should all just learn to sit down, shut up and get used to how things are, y'know, kinda like the Biden Administration!


I wouldn't worry too much about that happening. Mods here are pretty good at responding to violations seen, not just the complaints reported, and I've read many people coming here from other forums just because that doesn't go on here as with some other sites!

This site is rapidly closing that gap. If you could see what is REALLY going on here, you would be shocked. I've invited the mods to open up my backroom to the public, but they do not take me up on my invitation. By using censorship to conceal censorship, it slows down public awareness to what is really going on.

There is a lot of Stockholm syndrome here, where people wrongly sympathize with the people who are doing the massive censorship. It's too hard for a lot of people to digest the notion that the intent of the government here might not be as altruistic they think.

 

[toobfreak]

This site is rapidly closing that gap. If you could see what is REALLY going on here, you would be shocked. I've invited the mods to open up my backroom to the public, but they do not take me up on my invitation. By using censorship to conceal censorship, it slows down public awareness to what is really going on.

There is a lot of Stockholm syndrome here, where people wrongly sympathize with the people who are doing the massive censorship. It's too hard for a lot of people to digest the notion that the intent of the government here might not be as altruistic they think.

Well, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, it is still a pretty good place to talk and debate, lots of good people here including all of the mods I've had the chance to get to know a little and still looks better than any other places I've looked at. One mod here actually left for another place then came back because they liked it here so much better. Like I've said many times, while I think many things could be made even better, simpler and easier for all, it's THEIR show and if the owners don't care, why should anyone else?

Remember that: You and I are just members here. It's not our show so if you really don't like it, the door is wide open. But I would hope you'd stay.

USMB is TOPICS-based (whatever that means or why) but not QUALITY or ACCURACY based. Don't take my word, go read the rules and look for those words ANYWHERE. There is no reward here for investing great effort into posts and reports and a person doing a 5 second 2-word guessing game gets the same credit as if you or I do a 10,000 word exposé on government corruption taking an hour to research and put together! NO ONE CARES! All that is cared about here is to just shut up and do your best to abide by the rules, so DO IT! Nothing hard about that! I don't think anyone is out to get you.

Even if a few members here really are gigantic, despicable flaming a-holes. No one cares about what lurks in your backroom, simple as that, so why belabor it? Make what YOU want of the place--- as little or as much as you care to do--- When the integrity of the content is not your first (or any) concern, yet you claim to want strictly vigilant civil discourse in certain areas that look like anywhere else, demanding people act like civil adults while not having any filter in place to exclude people who are obviously NOT civil, rational adults, all I can say is good luck with that. Lies, falsehoods, exaggerations, circular game-playing and misinformation are the Number One cause of most social arguments.

I used to get paid big money for my critical analyses, but no one is paying anything here much less cares, like talking to the wind, so, just RELAX, EM, its a pretty great site often full of good information and I thank those that created it for making it available and hope it lasts another 20 years and doesn't just become another nest of leftwing hate and suppression as many places are. I mean, maybe USMB isn't everything you'd like, EM, but the last place I belonged to (sort of a specialized niche social media) banned me for asking a simple question about a movie! In a thread ABOUT movies!

So, quit yer belly-aching and enjoy the site for all that it is (or create a better one of your own to go up against it) and appreciate the great effort and time that mods like Flacc put into replying to questions, even if some replies don't always bear up well under critical analysis--- I'm sure it ISN'T a job requirement they do that. Just post your threads and replies, try to be mindful of the rules where they really count best you can, and live and let live and roll with the punches when things don't quite go your way and try to LEARN something from your bad experiences as a pattern to set down for improved future behavior. Life will go much easier for you.

Oh and, BTW, maybe no mod here ever told you this, but THANK YOU for at least caring enough to GIVE us your feedback and complaints! If no one here cared, there'd be no FB or complaints.

Food for thought.

 

[Feeding Crows]

This place is dead.
D
E
D

It's ready to be sold. See ya in the next life!

Time for me to feed...

 

[The Duke]

Because a pig-headed Admin, who is long departed, decided to impose them, despite nearly universal disagreement from the rest of the staff at the time.....He then appointed a power drunk maude to act as the "hanging judge", to ban anyone and everyone that they didn't like.

Board traffic has never recovered.

Meh, USMB gets plenty of traffic.

Doesn't have to fake anything like 99% of all other political boards on the interwebz.

 

[The Duke]

Agreed, the Ignore button is a very useful tool and I use it very liberally. I have no interest in trading insults and invective, and we do seem to have a lot of people who resort to that type of communication quite often. I don't come here for that crap, I'd probably be gone by now if I couldn't turn those people off. Which is kinda sad really, cuz everyone should have a voice but if a person can't speak their piece in a courteous and respectful manner then pizonya.

The ignore function is for snowflake Karen pussies that can't handle an opposing opinion.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Jessica-stormlover]

If you believe in individual liberty then you are fine with people being the other gender, gay and being wolfs. You're fine with the idea that people are going to be who and what makes them happy in life and won't use government to silence them.