Titles vs. Accomplishments

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

Yeah... your analysis of the NBA is rather moronic.

Jordan was the greatest basketball player ever. Period.

Interesting theory, if you want to provide reasons for your claim, I’m happy to listen

 

[candycorn]

Interesting theory, if you want to provide reasons for your claim, I’m happy to listen

Nobody who has watched the NBA with any sophistication would call Jordan "just a chucker".

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

Nobody who has watched the NBA with any sophistication would call Jordan "just a chucker".

Okay.. care to make your case?

 

[candycorn]

Okay.. care to make your case?

I did.

Nobody who has watched the NBA with any sophistication would agree with you.

Your move.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

I did.

Nobody who has watched the NBA with any sophistication would agree with you.

Your move.

That’s not a point, that’s a vague opinion.

you: “player X is the best”

me: why?

You: because of a made-up subjective category I just invented

dude, give some actual reasons

 

[candycorn]

That’s not a point, that’s a vague opinion.

you: “player X is the best”

me: why?

You: because of a made-up subjective category I just invented

dude, give some actual reasons

No..you said he was just a "chucker" or whatever. You've impeached yourself. Your quote..back it up.

As for Jordan. Six rings... the Bulls didn't matter before he got there and haven't mattered since he left.

They had from 62 WINS in his final season....over the next four years, they won 67 games.

"Just a chucker"? Yeah whatever.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

No..you said he was just a "chucker" or whatever.

Well he was definitely a chucker.. he's #2 all time on the most shots per game with 22.9 shots per game, only behind Elgin Baylor.

When you shoot that much, you score a lot, so comparing scoring numbers straight up with Jordan is often times skewed given how much he jacked shots up.

You've impeached yourself. Your quote..back it up.

Impeachment, no matter what the context, is something other people do to you... Did you try to use it just to attempt to sound smart?

As for Jordan. Six rings...

Bill Russell, 11 rings...

the Bulls didn't matter before he got there and haven't mattered since he left.

The Bulls made it the playoffs with good teams many times.. such as with Derrick Rose and Pau Gasol. Why the hyperbole?

They had from 62 WINS in his final season....over the next four years, they won 67 games.

You're leaving out that after 1998 season, along with Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, and Ron Harper all left. And, we had already seen that without Jordan, the Bulls were finals contenders as they were in 1994 and 1995.

Meanwhile, for example.. the Cavs went from winning 60+ games to winning just over 20 after Lebron left in 2011, and not much else changed on that team. That's the proper example to use.. not your laughably warped Bulls rebuild scenario.

 

[candycorn]

Well he was definitely a chucker.. he's #2 all time on the most shots per game with 22.9 shots per game, only behind Elgin Baylor.

And became one of the most prolific scorers in history.

Bill Russell, 11 rings...

Russell played when there was very little parity in the NBA.

The Bulls made it the playoffs with good teams many times.. such as with Derrick Rose and Pau Gasol. Why the hyperbole?

Who? Good teams v. teams that matter.... That is the standard. Nobody worried about getting past the Bulls.

You're leaving out that after 1998 season, along with Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, and Ron Harper all left. And, we had already seen that without Jordan, the Bulls were finals contenders as they were in 1994 and 1995.

And yet they didn't even make the finals....

Meanwhile, for example.. the Cavs went from winning 60+ games to winning just over 20 after Lebron left in 2011, and not much else changed on that team. That's the proper example to use.. not your laughably warped Bulls rebuild scenario.

Warped?

Jordan-led Bulls won nearly as many games in his final year as the franchise won in four following years. It speaks to MJ's greatness.

He is the greatest basketball player of all time. If someone doesn't think he is and they don't have some sort of mysterious hatred that you have toward him......they likely have him in the top three.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

And became one of the most prolific scorers in history.

Indeed. Nobody is disputing that. However, there's clearly a ledge of efficiency when it comes to scoring. If a player scores 35 a game but has to take 30 shots to do it, sure the stat box says "35 pts", but he was not an asset for his team with that lack of efficiency.

Russell played when there was very little parity in the NBA.

Exactly.. most teams were loaded with the best talent at the time. Russell played against Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Willis Reed, Bob Petit, etc. All time Greats that his Celtics held down from championships. Today, with 30+ teams, while "scrubs" are better overall IMO, the elite talent is unsaturated and spread around the league over more teams quite a bit more.

Who? Good teams v. teams that matter.... That is the standard. Nobody worried about getting past the Bulls.

"Teams that matter"? You can't be attempting to talk about this subject and be this obtuse. the Bulls won 62 games in 2010 and made the Eastern Conference finals, and then went 50-16 the next year in a strike shortened season. They were regular high playoff seeds, top 4 in the East for years and made the Conference semis 3 times.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

And yet they didn't even make the finals....

If you have to create black and white measuring sticks to defend your position, well.. you're being a coward. They made the eastern conference finals and it took a miracle by Larry Johnson from the New York Knicks to keep them out. Bottom line, without Jordan, the Bulls were Finals contenders. That's a fact.

Warped?

Jordan-led Bulls won nearly as many games in his final year as the franchise won in four following years. It speaks to MJ's greatness.

It speaks to a team with MJ that also lost multiple hall of famers, including the greatest coach of all time.

You lack context, and it seems on purpose just to fluff your hero. He's worthy of most praise he gets, but seriously.. drop the mythical hero worship.

He is the greatest basketball player of all time. If someone doesn't think he is and they don't have some sort of mysterious hatred that you have toward him......they likely have him in the top three.

LOL. "If someone doesn't agree with my proclamation, they have a mysterious hatred"... what a warped delusional outlook you have on things.

 

[candycorn]

Indeed. Nobody is disputing that. However, there's clearly a ledge of efficiency when it comes to scoring. If a player scores 35 a game but has to take 30 shots to do it, sure the stat box says "35 pts", but he was not an asset for his team with that lack of efficiency.

And won 72 games one year... A feat rarely accomplished. MJ musta been doing something right.

"Teams that matter"? You can't be attempting to talk about this subject and be this obtuse. the Bulls won 62 games in 2010 and made the Eastern Conference finals, and then went 50-16 the next year in a strike shortened season. They were regular high playoff seeds, top 4 in the East for years and made the Conference semis 3 times.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Again...never made the finals. Thanks for confirming.

If you have to create black and white measuring sticks to defend your position, well.. you're being a coward.

Yeah, that's so unfair of me to use objective data.

It speaks to a team with MJ that also lost multiple hall of famers, including the greatest coach of all time.

LOL...

Pippen was there. And who else? Rodman? He was there for 2 years. What other hall of famers were there on the Bulls? Jackson was a great coach...greatest of all time? Debatable.

You lack context, and it seems on purpose just to fluff your hero. He's worthy of most praise he gets, but seriously.. drop the mythical hero worship.

Most people who know the NBA have him as one of the greatest if not the greatest player ever. The "myth" was that "he was just a chucker"

LOL. "If someone doesn't agree with my proclamation, they have a mysterious hatred"... what a warped delusional outlook you have on things.

Your hatred of MJ is mysterious. "My" proclamation is hardly a lone voice.

Why Michael Jordan Was The Best

The Bulls legend was -- and still is -- basketball’s GOAT.

fivethirtyeight.com

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

And won 72 games one year... A feat rarely accomplished. MJ musta been doing something right.

Nobody said he wasn't. He's one of the greatest players in NBA history, and should be considered in GOAT discussion.

Again...never made the finals. Thanks for confirming.

That's not what you originally said, nice shifting the goal posts.

You said "Nobody worried about getting past the Bulls."... that's objectively false. The Bulls were an elite team for 3-4 years with Derrick Rose and that group.

So, your claim of "since MJ they're nothing" is easily debunked.

Yeah, that's so unfair of me to use objective data.

You're leaving out massive context. Why do you attribute all of the Bulls success to MJ when they won 57 games without him, and had multiple all stars and HOF's on his team?

LOL...

Pippen was there. And who else? Rodman? He was there for 2 years. What other hall of famers were there on the Bulls? Jackson was a great coach...greatest of all time? Debatable.

Pippen and Rodman and Phil Jackson yes, which is why I used hall of famers as a plural.

Most people who know the NBA have him as one of the greatest if not the greatest player ever. The "myth" was that "he was just a chucker"

If I made one error in our chat, it was using the word "just"... He was an all-time great, one of the greatest in NBA history. But he absolutely was a chucker and his offensive efficiency was quite questionable at times. People who watched at the time and didn't hear it from ESPN/Nike/NBA fan boys know this. Jordan wasn't some sort of god when he played, as this new younger generation makes him out to be. No player is god-like, they all had their weaknesses.

Your hatred of MJ is mysterious. "My" proclamation is hardly a lone voice.

Why Michael Jordan Was The Best

The Bulls legend was -- and still is -- basketball’s GOAT.

fivethirtyeight.com

I don't hate MJ, you just have an extreme position and view my neutral position as extreme, because you're wayyyyyy committed. You're the one making a claim, not me. I'm saying he's not hands-down the GOAT. I can list a few players who can best Jordan in areas that MJ disciples quote as evidence that Jordan is the greatest.

 

[rightwinger]

If Bill Russell has 11 NBA Championships, he's the greatest, right? No MJ support can say otherwise?

There were 8 NBA teams when Bill Russell won his championships

There are 30 NBA teams today. Much more difficult to win today plus you have to deal with free agency and a draft

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

There were 8 NBA teams when Bill Russell won his championships

There are 30 NBA teams today. Much more difficult to win today plus you have to deal with free agency and a draft

Fact Check: False

# of teams in each of Russells championship seasons:
8 teams in 1961
9 teams 1962-66
10 teams in 1967
12 teams in 1968
14 teams in 1969

Glad I could correct you.

And regardless.. less teams means the talent of the era is more condensed, meaning beating stacked and loaded teams is all that more impressive. Today, the talent is spread out and very unsaturated.

 

[candycorn]

Nobody said he wasn't. He's one of the greatest players in NBA history, and should be considered in GOAT discussion.

Far cry from your previous statement:

Dude, if you take off the ESPN/NBA/Nike glasses for a second, Jordan was just a chucker who got favorable foul calls all day long. He was a the leagues golden boy.. he knew it, and the refs knew it.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

Far cry from your previous statement:

Two things can be true at once.

Now, why don't you answer up to:

1. How your claim that "nobody ever worried about getting past the Bulls" in the playoffs since MJ is bogus (and a rather odd point to try to cling to, but I digress)

2. How the Bulls won 57 games and nearly made the NBA Finals without MJ if these title runs were so much about MJ.

If Michael was so much of that team, how were they so good without him?

And if Michael was as good as you say he was, why didn't he win until Pippen and Jackson entered the fray? His teams were busy winning 30-40 games, sneaking into the playoffs as the 7th or 8th seed and getting swept in the first round.

 

[candycorn]

Two things can be true at once.

You can be considered "Just a chucker who got favorable calls" or whatever the quote was as well as being considered the G>O>A>T?

Yeah...that doesn't make any sense.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

You can be considered "Just a chucker who got favorable calls" or whatever the quote was as well as being considered the G>O>A>T?

Yeah...that doesn't make any sense.

I’m happy to answer your point if you answer the multiple ones from me you’ve been avoiding

 

[sealybobo]

Oh, certainly. Roger Bannister, when he ran a 4-minute mile, was the GOAT...or, rather, the Greatest of His Time. Now, the mile record is "3:43.13, by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco, at age 24, in 1999". Eventually, that record will be broken, and that runner will be the Greatest of His Time.

On the Laker show on HBO called Winning Time the guy playing Dr Buss told the story of Roger Bannister. How he destroyed what us humans knew about the human body. That no one could run the mile in under 4. NO ONE. Then he did it in 3.59.40. It took the next guy just two weeks to break his record. Remember his name? Dr. Buss asked. Exactly. LOL