Time to get out.

[Rico]

This is one conservative who's willing to say let's get the hell out of Iraq. The situation has deteorated to the point that we are in the way of a civil war.
We went in with the intelligence we had. We went in with the suppositions we had. Both have proven incorrect. We should have read our history and known Iraq was an amalgam not a nation. Time to cut our losses and hope for the best.
I know the criticism: we give a victory to al queda/islamic militants/ our enemies worldwide. However to remain with the current strategem is to waste American lives. Either we change the whole ballgame and go in and demilitarize entire regions of Iraq (evacuate the population in the sunni triangle and disarm same and th shiite areas) or we bug the fuck out!! Half measures or a continuation of current policy is unacceptable, unrealistic, and a plan of disaster.

 

[90K]

I can see the media has gotten us down and we've been mentally beaten. Our troops who have the burden of carrying our sorry asses to achieve a thankless duty. Why because they hear the news and our leaders which I may add aren't vets and the ones who are are so old they don't know which day it is. We've allowed the media on both sides to control this deal. We want instant gratification and when we didn't get it we said many things. Like our current President is doing the job his daddy didn't or because of the lack of body armor our troops are dying. Or Rumsfeld this and that. So I say how do we correct this? Is there a real fix? Is leaving the immediate anwser? How about long term how would this effect our country's moral as a whole? What message does this send to the world? And will the world respect us?

1. The media sucks and they have ruined everything everytime.
2.Is it easy to fall into the trap of what the media has said about our leaders?
Yes but should we fall for it? I say no many will disagree
3 I believe we could have done more to protect our troops, and had we kept the media out we could have surpressed much of the evil in Iraq by cleaning house. Is it humane? Who cares these people weren't capable to do it themselves and lest we forget those free Iraqi's who wanted us to come in and so-call liberate them.
4. Leaving looks really good. But what looks better is our will and our determination to leave on our terms and keep our moral up and not allow these freaks to dictate our time line in Iraq or in our country.
5. Short term would mean getting our lives back in order and forgetting the real threat, and you know the media won't let us forget either!
6. How could the world respect us, look at france and germany they are complete pushovers with no spine and are very deceitful in many of there matters. Who would want to be like them? I sure as hell wouldn't
7. Until we become more at one as a nation and deem that any immigration to our country can't continue then we'll be at constant odds with Washington and the rest of the world and our future generations will either have to clean up our mess or fall by invasion of foreign troops.

We as a nation must stand up against the media and we must demand those spineless leaders in D.C. allow our military leaders full and unrestricted control to do this job. Many will die but many died on D-Day and in Iwo Jima and many other places in the world with much less technology. Lest we forget the golden roads paved by those brave souls theat didn't make it back from all of our wars and conflicks.

I see your points but I served my country and have seen ungrateful men and women who have not experienced nothing but good times mock me and my mission. Enough is enough already.

 

[CSM]

I can see the media has gotten us down and we've been mentally beaten. Our troops who have the burden of carrying our sorry asses to achieve a thankless duty. Why because they hear the news and our leaders which I may add aren't vets and the ones who are are so old they don't know which day it is. We've allowed the media on both sides to control this deal. We want instant gratification and when we didn't get it we said many things. Like our current President is doing the job his daddy didn't or because of the lack of body armor our troops are dying. Or Rumsfeld this and that. So I say how do we correct this? Is there a real fix? Is leaving the immediate anwser? How about long term how would this effect our country's moral as a whole? What message does this send to the world? And will the world respect us?

1. The media sucks and they have ruined everything everytime.
2.Is it easy to fall into the trap of what the media has said about our leaders?
Yes but should we fall for it? I say no many will disagree
3 I believe we could have done more to protect our troops, and had we kept the media out we could have surpressed much of the evil in Iraq by cleaning house. Is it humane? Who cares these people weren't capable to do it themselves and lest we forget those free Iraqi's who wanted us to come in and so-call liberate them.
4. Leaving looks really good. But what looks better is our will and our determination to leave on our terms and keep our moral up and not allow these freaks to dictate our time line in Iraq or in our country.
5. Short term would mean getting our lives back in order and forgetting the real threat, and you know the media won't let us forget either!
6. How could the world respect us, look at france and germany they are complete pushovers with no spine and are very deceitful in many of there matters. Who would want to be like them? I sure as hell wouldn't
7. Until we become more at one as a nation and deem that any immigration to our country can't continue then we'll be at constant odds with Washington and the rest of the world and our future generations will either have to clean up our mess or fall by invasion of foreign troops.

We as a nation must stand up against the media and we must demand those spineless leaders in D.C. allow our military leaders full and unrestricted control to do this job. Many will die but many died on D-Day and in Iwo Jima and many other places in the world with much less technology. Lest we forget the golden roads paved by those brave souls theat didn't make it back from all of our wars and conflicks.

I see your points but I served my country and have seen ungrateful men and women who have not experienced nothing but good times mock me and my mission. Enough is enough already.

AMEN!

I am sick and tired of hearing the sheep bleating about "plans" and courses of action, tactics, strategy and all the other stuff that has become the liberal mantra and amounts to nothing more than justification of national cowardice. When we have people who seriously believe that some entertainer has more knowledge and skill in military matters than our military, we, as a nation, are in deep doo-doo!

You are right...enough is enough. If you do not have the guts, discipline and drive to do the right thing, then shut up and get the heck out of the way...do your whining, bitching and complaining after it's over but unless you are willing to step up to the plate and actively contribute something productive, then you are just another pimple on the ass of progress.

 

[theHawk]

I think the main thing that needs to happen is getting our troops off the streets where they are so prone to attacks. I highly doubt we will ever just "up and leave". Our military should remain present on bases and be there to provide air support for Iraqis fighting against terrorists, and also should be available for joint raids of known terrorists strongholds. But the Iraqis are the ones that need to be patrolling the streets of the cities.

 

[90K]

Awesome idea, first alpha stike is Sadr City slum, then track down and hang Al Sadr from the highest point in the area and shoot him. Justice done to a known load mouth thug:firing:

 

[akiboy]

This is one conservative who's willing to say let's get the hell out of Iraq. The situation has deteorated to the point that we are in the way of a civil war.
We went in with the intelligence we had. We went in with the suppositions we had. Both have proven incorrect. We should have read our history and known Iraq was an amalgam not a nation. Time to cut our losses and hope for the best.
I know the criticism: we give a victory to al queda/islamic militants/ our enemies worldwide. However to remain with the current strategem is to waste American lives. Either we change the whole ballgame and go in and demilitarize entire regions of Iraq (evacuate the population in the sunni triangle and disarm same and th shiite areas) or we bug the fuck out!! Half measures or a continuation of current policy is unacceptable, unrealistic, and a plan of disaster.

If America does pull out then will the UN come in and take care of the trigger happy militants/radicals/insurgents in Iraq and prevent a civil war??Personally I have nothing against an American pullout but then who will take care of the security in that region ? Can the U.S persuade the U.N to handle it?



Akshay

 

[90K]

If America does pull out then will the UN come in and take care of the trigger happy militants/radicals/insurgents in Iraq and prevent a civil war??Personally I have nothing against an American pullout but then who will take care of the security in that region ? Can the U.S persuade the U.N to handle it?
Akshay

Never, because UN is so spineless and can be bought. If we were allowed to deliver a serious blow to these known trouble makers it would slow for a period and forget this geneva convention rubbish since the other side doesn't follow it and take the war to the radicals and close off the border and clean house. That would be a start and quit wavering every other day on policy. War is dirty and it ain't meant to be a subject to be spoken about lightly!

 

[Rico]

The situation is out of the control of the Iraqi "Government". We have allowed the militias to remain armed. The "Gov't" controls almost nothing and now dictates to American forces who they can and cannot attack. What you have is the makings of an all out civil war. Which side do we take? Do we take a side or just get attacked by both? WTF were the Pentagon and the White House thinking in not disarming the populace?
Something big has to change in Iraq and quickly or public opinion is going to demand withdrawal. It has been 3 1/2 years now. Hell we defeated the Germans and the Japanese in nearly the same time period. The half measures and pussyfooting around have led us to this point. Time to either change tactics or get out as the current stragegy is gaining nothing.

 

[dmp]

The situation is out of the control of the Iraqi "Government".

Speculation

We have allowed the militias to remain armed.

'We'? Are you over there helping? 'allowed'?

The "Gov't" controls almost nothing and now dictates to American forces who they can and cannot attack. What you have is the makings of an all out civil war.

Speculation - and your conclusion isn't supported by your initial statement

Whi
Something big has to change in Iraq and quickly or public opinion is going to demand withdrawal.

Fuck Public Opinion. When the public votes in people like Kennedy, Pelosi, and Dean it shows sometimes the majority can not be trusted to act reasonably.

It has been 3 1/2 years now. Hell we defeated the Germans and the Japanese in nearly the same time period.

How long did the US stay in Japan? or Germany?

The half measures and pussyfooting around have led us to this point. Time to either change tactics or get out as the current stragegy is gaining nothing.

Are you a Military tactical advisor? What tactical training do you have? What strategy have you created? It's VERY easy to sharp-shoot people doing a HARD job.

 

[trobinett]

This is one conservative who's willing to say let's get the hell out of Iraq. The situation has deteorated to the point that we are in the way of a civil war.
We went in with the intelligence we had. We went in with the suppositions we had. Both have proven incorrect. We should have read our history and known Iraq was an amalgam not a nation. Time to cut our losses and hope for the best.
I know the criticism: we give a victory to al queda/islamic militants/ our enemies worldwide. However to remain with the current strategem is to waste American lives. Either we change the whole ballgame and go in and demilitarize entire regions of Iraq (evacuate the population in the sunni triangle and disarm same and th shiite areas) or we bug the fuck out!! Half measures or a continuation of current policy is unacceptable, unrealistic, and a plan of disaster.

Bug out? Nope.:finger:

 

[glockmail]

The situation is out of the control of the Iraqi "Government". We have allowed the militias to remain armed. The "Gov't" controls almost nothing and now dictates to American forces who they can and cannot attack. What you have is the makings of an all out civil war. Which side do we take? Do we take a side or just get attacked by both? WTF were the Pentagon and the White House thinking in not disarming the populace?
Something big has to change in Iraq and quickly or public opinion is going to demand withdrawal. It has been 3 1/2 years now. Hell we defeated the Germans and the Japanese in nearly the same time period. The half measures and pussyfooting around have led us to this point. Time to either change tactics or get out as the current stragegy is gaining nothing.

I can see where you're coming from and agree except for the part about pulling out. We should have changed tactics as well as goals 2 years ago.
1. Iraq should be three independent states with defensible borders and a loose federation that distrbutes oil money based on the population at the start and nothing much else.
2. Sadr City and similar places should me cordoned off, give them 48 hours to vacate and then blow the place away from the air, clean up with tanks followed by bulldozers.
3. All borders should be flown randomly and often; kill everthing withing a 100 yard swath. That will keep Iran and Syria away as well as the warring factions while the Sunnis, Shites and Kurds rebuild themselves.

 

[Annie]

Related:


http://www.nypost.com/seven/1026200...l_muqtada_now_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm

KILL MUQTADA NOW

By RALPH PETERS

October 26, 2006 -- IT WAS wrenching to listen to President Bush's news conference yesterday. He's struggling to do the right thing. But he's getting terrible advice.

He's still counting on a political solution in Iraq. Ain't going to happen. And you can take that to the blood bank.

Our famously loyal president has one grave flaw: He's a poor judge of character. He trusts the wrong people. Then he sticks by them.

Bush met Russia's Vladimir Putin, "looked into his soul" - and failed to recognize that the guy is an unreformed secret policeman. He stubbornly defends Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, the Pentagon's architect of failure. Now he's standing up for Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki - a man who has decided to back our enemies.

I lost faith in our engagement in Iraq last week. I can pinpoint the moment. It came when I heard that Maliki had demanded - successfully - that our military release a just-captured deputy of Muqtada al-Sadr who was running death squads.

As a former intelligence officer, that told me two things: First, Iraq's prime minister is betting on Muqtada to prevail, not us. Second, Muqtada, not the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, is now the most powerful man in Iraq.

At his news conference, Bush was asked about another statement made by Maliki just hours before. Our troops had conducted a raid in Sadr City, Muqtada's Baghdad stronghold. The Iraqi PM quickly declared that "this will not happen again." He was signaling his allegiance to Muqtada. Publicly.

Oh, Maliki realizes his government wouldn't last a week if our troops withdrew. He doesn't want us to leave yet. But he's looking ahead.

For now, Maliki and his pals are using our troops to buy time while they pocket our money, amass power and build up arms. But they've written us off for the long term.

Does that mean we should leave?

Not yet. Iraq deserves one last chance. But to make that chance even remotely viable, we'll have to take desperate measures. We need to fight. And accept the consequences.

The first thing we need to do is to kill Muqtada al-Sadr, who's now a greater threat to our strategic goals than Osama bin Laden.

We should've killed him in 2003, when he first embarked upon his murder campaign. But our leaders were afraid of provoking riots.

Back then, the tumult might've lasted a week. Now we'll face a serious uprising. So be it. When you put off paying war's price, you pay compound interest in blood.

We must kill - not capture - Muqtada, then kill every gunman who comes out in the streets to avenge him.

Our policy of all-carrots-no-sticks has failed miserably. We delivered Iraq to zealots, gangsters and terrorists. Now our only hope is to prove that we mean business - that the era of peace, love and wasting American lives is over.

And after we've killed Muqtada and destroyed his Mahdi Army, we need to go after the Sunni insurgents. If we can't leave a democracy behind, we should at least leave the corpses of our enemies.

The holier-than-thou response to this proposal is predictable: "We can't kill our way out of this situation!" Well, boo-hoo. Friendly persuasion and billions of dollars haven't done the job. Give therapeutic violence a chance.

Our soldiers and Marines are dying to protect a government whose members are scrambling to ally themselves with sectarian militias and insurgent factions. President Bush needs to face reality. The Maliki government is a failure.

There's still a chance, if a slight one, that we can achieve a few of our goals in Iraq - if we let our troops make war, not love. But if our own leaders are unwilling to fight, it's time to leave and let Iraqis fight each other.

Our president owes Iraq's treacherous prime minister nothing. Get tough, or get out.

Ralph Peters' latest book is "Never Quit the Fight."

 

[onedomino]

I can see where you're coming from and agree except for the part about pulling out. We should have changed tactics as well as goals 2 years ago.
1. Iraq should be three independent states with defensible borders and a loose federation that distrbutes oil money based on the population at the start and nothing much else.
2. Sadr City and similar places should me cordoned off, give them 48 hours to vacate and then blow the place away from the air, clean up with tanks followed by bulldozers.
3. All borders should be flown randomly and often; kill everthing withing a 100 yard swath. That will keep Iran and Syria away as well as the warring factions while the Sunnis, Shites and Kurds rebuild themselves.

Could hardly result in more UN condemnation than we receive now. Perhaps we should base the oil wealth distribution on what ethnicity controls the place where the oil is pumped. Let's see how the Sunni killers in central Iraq like those apples. But that would give too high a percentage to the Shites. Maybe we should just hold it all in escrow, except for the Kurds' share. When the killers in central and southern Iraq put down their guns, or are all dead, then they get the money. I guess I am only kidding, but the idea of a Federal Iraq is not working. Iraq was never more the the figment of some early 20th Century British cartographer's imagination anyway.

 

[Gunny]

The situation is out of the control of the Iraqi "Government". We have allowed the militias to remain armed. The "Gov't" controls almost nothing and now dictates to American forces who they can and cannot attack. What you have is the makings of an all out civil war. Which side do we take? Do we take a side or just get attacked by both? WTF were the Pentagon and the White House thinking in not disarming the populace?
Something big has to change in Iraq and quickly or public opinion is going to demand withdrawal. It has been 3 1/2 years now. Hell we defeated the Germans and the Japanese in nearly the same time period. The half measures and pussyfooting around have led us to this point. Time to either change tactics or get out as the current stragegy is gaining nothing.

I can hardly add to what CSM and 90K have already said, except I do SO despise cowardice. We started it ... we are honor-bound to finish it. Simple as that.

But DO write your government representatives and explain your dismay at their not allowing professionals to do their jobs while novices attempt to play war.

 

[T-Bor]

So you want us to just stay there huh. So staying pretty much means we are there for a VERY VERY long time.. Because you all know damn well that it is impossible to establish a secure govt that will not be taken over by Insurgents there. It is a fact that whatever American appointed govt that is in there would be overthrown when we leave. I believe there was never was an exit strategy cause the govt knows they can never leave because it will turn to hell when we do. This is also why I believe it was much better with Saddam there. His regime is like a walk in the park compared to what they have now. We absolutley turned that place to complete shit and everyone here knows it.

Bug out? Nope.:finger:

 

[Annie]

So you want us to just stay there huh. So staying pretty much means we are there for a VERY VERY long time.. Because you all know damn well that it is impossible to establish a secure govt that will not be taken over by Insurgents there. It is a fact that whatever American appointed govt that is in there would be overthrown when we leave. I believe there was never was an exit strategy cause the govt knows they can never leave because it will turn to hell when we do. This is also why I believe it was much better with Saddam there. His regime is like a walk in the park compared to what they have now. We absolutley turned that place to complete shit and everyone here knows it.

So why the f don't 'they' agree with you?

 

[T-Bor]

Kathy when you are you going to come get your toothbrush from my bathroom ?? Keep talking like that and I am going to do nasty things to it.

 

[Dr Grump]

Speculation.

Nothing speculative about it. The govt has little or no control even with GoP propagandists trying their hardest to make out things are ok over there. Almost daily explosions seem to back up that assertion. Unless you think these types of actions are the acts of being "in control". In which case, more power to you..

'We'? Are you over there helping? 'allowed'?.

The US has some responsibility to stop the militias, after all the US created the situation. As for your "we" and "allowed", you know the context he was speaking in.

Speculation - and your conclusion isn't supported by your initial statement.

While I'm not too sure about what the Iraqi "govt" allows and disallows, there is definitely more than a high chance of being a civil war in Iraq after the US pulls out, even could be a pseudo civil war going on now....

Fuck Public Opinion. When the public votes in people like Kennedy, Pelosi, and Dean it shows sometimes the majority can not be trusted to act reasonably.

Or Bush and his wing nuts pals. Public opinion matters. It is THEIR govt. Of the poeple remember?

How long did the US stay in Japan? or Germany?

Apple and oranges...

Are you a Military tactical advisor? What tactical training do you have? What strategy have you created? It's VERY easy to sharp-shoot people doing a HARD job.

It's very easy to sharp-shoot the fools who started the mess (not the military personal over there)..you know what I mean.

 

[MtnBiker]

Kathy when you are you going to come get your toothbrush from my bathroom ?? Keep talking like that and I am going to do nasty things to it.

What the hell does that mean?

 

[Bonnie]

If America does pull out then will the UN come in and take care of the trigger happy militants/radicals/insurgents in Iraq and prevent a civil war??Personally I have nothing against an American pullout but then who will take care of the security in that region ? Can the U.S persuade the U.N to handle it?


Akshay

Dont' hold your breath on that one, even if we could persuade them, why would we want to, their record is abysmal.