The Teaching Profession

[bodecea]

I don't know the subject? You are so full of shit, I'll bet your eyes are brown!

I was a teacher for 21 years and I am smart enough to say "Fuck it!" and leave the field because I am sick and tired of morons that could not teach a fish to drink water telling me they can do it so much better because of how easy it is!

Most of them would be crying for their Mommas after the first juvenile delinquent tells the go fuck themselves!

If competent teachers would not pass on students who did not master the subjects taught that year, that wouldn't happen.

Screw you. you couldn't do the job. You did not establish a rapport with the students and failed to make a difference in their lives.

I couldn't do the job? Who died and appointed you God, you arrogant turd!

As to your asinine commentary, most teachers do not have that power as research has proven that retention is determined to be useless.

What subject did you say you taught? PE?

You started with arrogance, big boy. So, you are saying, let the kids whop did not master the subject be passed on and be the blazing failing idiot in the next grade. Instead of letting them have anoyther turn in the grade and be one of the top students.

I don't know where you get off thinking that is the norm, because it is not. Teachers do not control the retention policies in most schools. Educate yourself outside your own little world.

I controlled retentions in my classroom. I think the principal afforded that right to any teacher he had confidence in. One principal had a rule about passing the unruly children on to get them out olf the school sooner.

"I controlled retentions in my classroom"....On what planet is that under the control of teachers anymore?

 

[Jackson]

Wrong. I was a teacher for 32 years.

Driver's ed doesn't count!

Tory, you are awfully full of yourself when you don't know anything about the subject being discussed.

I don't know the subject? You are so full of shit, I'll bet your eyes are brown!

I was a teacher for 21 years and I am smart enough to say "Fuck it!" and leave the field because I am sick and tired of morons that could not teach a fish to drink water telling me they can do it so much better because of how easy it is!

Most of them would be crying for their Mommas after the first juvenile delinquent tells the go fuck themselves!

If competent teachers would not pass on students who did not master the subjects taught that year, that wouldn't happen.

Screw you. you couldn't do the job. You did not establish a rapport with the students and failed to make a difference in their lives.

Wait....you were a kindergarten teacher?

No.

 

[Jackson]

Thus speaks those who cannot and will not teach.

Wrong. I was a teacher for 32 years.

You are the OP?

No.

 

[DGS49]

Checking back...

There is no objective body of knowledge ABOUT TEACHING that must be mastered and tested. Compare, for example, Law (of which I am quite familiar, being a member of the PA Bar). You MUST pass the Bar exam. You must know real property law, civil procedure, criminal law, tort law, and estate law - none of which are known by the general public - or you will simply fail the Bar Exam. What factual knowledge is required for a teacher? What "professional association" certifies teachers, tests their knowledge of TEACHING before they can "practice" in the field? Requires them to remain up to date in "teaching," or lose their license? The very idea is absurd.

A teacher putting up a shingle and being a sole practitioner? On what planet? Teaching what? Getting Rich through Real Estate? Gimme a break.

Have you ever heard of a teacher being sued for malpractice? Can you even imagine it? Have you ever heard of a teacher being challenged for not being up to date in TEACHING SCIENCE?

As for teachers in "higher education," they have one thing going for them that public K-12 teachers do not: They MUST be expert in their field of teaching, as demonstrated by at least a master's degree. And historically (though not universally now), Masters Degrees required either passing a comprehensive test, or a seriously-reviewed thesis.

Being a "Professional" has meaning in life. Consider: Look at all of the fields of endeavor that have set up quasi-professional frameworks to encourage professional-ISM among their lot. Purchasing agents have an international body that establishes criteria (education, experience, a test) by which a practitioner can become a "Professional" purchasing agent (I think it's called a CPM). Project managers have the same thing. These are admirable, but they can't do the one thing that a Profession can do: Require that certificate in order to work in the field. It's just something to separate yourself from the run of the mill guy working in the field.

And teachers don't even have that. Teachers' unions are uniformly and totally dedicated to initiatives that benefit the teachers...not the students, not the schools, not the parents, and certainly not the taxpayers who pay their salaries and for their plentiful benefits.

 

[Unkotare]

Checking back...

There is no objective body of knowledge ABOUT TEACHING that must be mastered and tested. .....

Yes, there is.

 

[Unkotare]

.....

A teacher putting up a shingle and being a sole practitioner? .....

Happens every day in cities all across America.

 

[Unkotare]

..... They MUST be expert in their field of teaching....

Just like K-12 teachers.

 

[Unkotare]

....

Being a "Professional" has meaning in life. ....

Like being a professional teacher.

 

[Moonglow]

I taught professional subjects in my area of expertise for many years...groups of purchasing agents, sales people, project managers, and general managers. Never kids.

But having spent many, many years in classrooms from first grade through doctorate, and having many friends and acquaintances who are active and retired teachers, I think I'm qualified to make the comments stated above.

Words mean things, and when people claim falsely to be "professionals," it is sometimes appropriate to correct them, especially when the claim is insidious, as it is with public school teachers. And teachers' unions have done more harm to American education, and stolen more from American taxpayers than any other organized group of people.

In my opinion, of course.

Not all public school teachers are unionized..

 

[Tresha91203]

Excellent post. There are a few points I sgould comment on, however. There are programs in some schools that do mentor new teachers and recommend future contracts or firing afrer one year of monitoring. There is also another program where teachers lacking in the skills are mentored and can be fired as well even if they are under contract.

You are absolutely right about teacher unions. The president of AFT once said, "I'll care about the kids when they pay me my salary." So it is not about improving education or improving teacher skills (usually). It's the almighty dollar. Don't get me wrong. Teacher's do need a voice in wage negotiations, but it's generally not the union that cares about making the best teachers.

Oh, please! Not that old worn out line!

Do truck drivers have the Teamster's Union designing trucks? I guess they don't care about their employment. Unions represent teachers just like the United Mine Workers represents miners. They don't care about the quality of the coal they are mining and how much it impacts global warming.

Why do you morons ascribe duties to teacher's unions that are not expected by any other union?

It doesn't matter how much you are paid if you turn out a shitty product. I believe in merit pay.

OK, let's see your ideas on merit pay. I had a professor in graduate school who wrote a book after doing years and years of research saying that merit pay is impossible to make fair to the teachers. Someone will always lose.

I finish an assignment tomorrow where the teacher has six classes. One is full of behavior problems and they are far behind the other classes. Another class is a collaborative special ed/regular ed class. They are also far behind the other 4 regular ed classes.

How will you design a system of merit pay to treat that special ed teacher and that regular ed teacher equally?

Teachers are being tested using the Praxis system. An evaluator will come in and watch the teacher, Then they would write a report examining how the teacher kept the students focused, provided for individua; differences, performed well with discipline, an array of skills. It was meant to evaluate teachers as well. as finding those teachers whop need more skills.

No, teachers are not being tested using the Praxis system. I knew you were full of shit! I never took a Praxis test and would not recognize one if I tripped over it.

Are you sure you aren't a first year education student, because that is about what you seem to know about the topic?

Teachers here must pass the Praxis.

Praxis

 

[DGS49]

OK Unk, I believe you claim to be a public school teacher.

What are the minimum requirements for an incoming teacher in your district? Is there a comprehensive test in TEACHING that must be passed, in order to be considered for a teaching position? "General knowledge" test doesn't count. We are talking about esoteric knowledge that is unique to teaching, and not known to the general public. What sorts of knowledge are tested?

What are the minimum qualifications for a HS physics teacher in your school district? Is a degree IN PHYSICS required? Would applicant's be required to pass a test in Physics in order to be considered.

 

[DGS49]

And another thing. I had to have a bachelor's degree JUST TO GET INTO LAW SCHOOL. Then, after graduating from law school I had to take the bar exam.

Doctors are the same. Bachelor's degree, THEN med school, then pass comprehensive exams.

Architects: 5 year Bachelor's degree, then YEARS of experience, THEN take the test.

CPA's: Bachelor's degree, years of experience, then take the test.

Compare with a typical public school teacher. BA in "Secondary Ed." Done.

Professionals? Not even in the same neighborhood.

Gimme a fukkin' break.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Checking back...

There is no objective body of knowledge ABOUT TEACHING that must be mastered and tested. Compare, for example, Law (of which I am quite familiar, being a member of the PA Bar). You MUST pass the Bar exam. You must know real property law, civil procedure, criminal law, tort law, and estate law - none of which are known by the general public - or you will simply fail the Bar Exam. What factual knowledge is required for a teacher? What "professional association" certifies teachers, tests their knowledge of TEACHING before they can "practice" in the field? Requires them to remain up to date in "teaching," or lose their license? The very idea is absurd.

A teacher putting up a shingle and being a sole practitioner? On what planet? Teaching what? Getting Rich through Real Estate? Gimme a break.

Have you ever heard of a teacher being sued for malpractice? Can you even imagine it? Have you ever heard of a teacher being challenged for not being up to date in TEACHING SCIENCE?

As for teachers in "higher education," they have one thing going for them that public K-12 teachers do not: They MUST be expert in their field of teaching, as demonstrated by at least a master's degree. And historically (though not universally now), Masters Degrees required either passing a comprehensive test, or a seriously-reviewed thesis.

Being a "Professional" has meaning in life. Consider: Look at all of the fields of endeavor that have set up quasi-professional frameworks to encourage professional-ISM among their lot. Purchasing agents have an international body that establishes criteria (education, experience, a test) by which a practitioner can become a "Professional" purchasing agent (I think it's called a CPM). Project managers have the same thing. These are admirable, but they can't do the one thing that a Profession can do: Require that certificate in order to work in the field. It's just something to separate yourself from the run of the mill guy working in the field.

And teachers don't even have that. Teachers' unions are uniformly and totally dedicated to initiatives that benefit the teachers...not the students, not the schools, not the parents, and certainly not the taxpayers who pay their salaries and for their plentiful benefits.

This post of so full of misinformation that it should nominate you for the "Dumbass of the Year. Award".

Almost every claim you make is flat out wrong.

You don't know anything about teachers and teaching and have removed any shadow of a doubt of that fact.

As a teacher, I was required by the state to pass a professional knowledge test of education.Teachers are required to attend professional development to keep current in education. Therefore, your first paragraph is completely in error.

I have never heard of a teacher not being up to date in science because they are not. Their professional development keeps them up to speed. That takes care of your third paragraph.

Teachers in most states are required to complete a Master's degree within a certain period of time after becoming a teacher. I started teaching in 1996 and finished my M.Ed.in 2003. In my current state, you must start your Master's program within 5 years. That makes your next paragraph completely in error once again.

In your last paragraph, you demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about the functions of unions.

In summary, you got just about every important fact wrong. Doesn't that embarrass you in the slightest?

A lawyer who does not know the facts is a shyster!

 

[Unkotare]

Someone is a little over-excited about learning a new word, "esoteric," but doesn't know how to apply it correctly.

There are, of course, a series of tests required to be certified and licensed to teach. Teachers are, of course, required to take continuing education courses throughout their careers and to be evaluated on a very regular basis. The OP does, of course, have a raging hard-on about teachers for some reason. Maybe he got a well-deserved beating from one as a child (or as an adult) and has never gotten over it. In any case, he need not feel so threatened.

Teachers are educated, trained, tested, and constantly evaluated professionals.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

And another thing. I had to have a bachelor's degree JUST TO GET INTO LAW SCHOOL. Then, after graduating from law school I had to take the bar exam.

Doctors are the same. Bachelor's degree, THEN med school, then pass comprehensive exams.

Architects: 5 year Bachelor's degree, then YEARS of experience, THEN take the test.

CPA's: Bachelor's degree, years of experience, then take the test.

Compare with a typical public school teacher. BA in "Secondary Ed." Done.

Professionals? Not even in the same neighborhood.

Gimme a fukkin' break.

More bullshit? Why don't you research the teaching requirements in your state so you don't appear to be the incredible dumbass that you are projecting?

 

[Unkotare]

And another thing. I had to have a bachelor's degree JUST TO GET INTO LAW SCHOOL.....

Wow, just like every other graduate school. Stunning.

 

[bodecea]

And another thing. I had to have a bachelor's degree JUST TO GET INTO LAW SCHOOL. Then, after graduating from law school I had to take the bar exam.

Doctors are the same. Bachelor's degree, THEN med school, then pass comprehensive exams.

Architects: 5 year Bachelor's degree, then YEARS of experience, THEN take the test.

CPA's: Bachelor's degree, years of experience, then take the test.

Compare with a typical public school teacher. BA in "Secondary Ed." Done.

Professionals? Not even in the same neighborhood.

Gimme a fukkin' break.

Unless we are talking the Red South, almost all states require a BA and then at least one more year for credentialling for getting a teaching license.....except for private schools, they don't have to require anything.

 

[initforme]

DS it seems you want highly educated people teaching. If you want the best then you will have to increase pay a ton more. Can't have it both ways then nobody would do the job. Increase in pay increase level of education.

 

[mgh80]

OK Unk, I believe you claim to be a public school teacher.

What are the minimum requirements for an incoming teacher in your district? Is there a comprehensive test in TEACHING that must be passed, in order to be considered for a teaching position? "General knowledge" test doesn't count. We are talking about esoteric knowledge that is unique to teaching, and not known to the general public. What sorts of knowledge are tested?

What are the minimum qualifications for a HS physics teacher in your school district? Is a degree IN PHYSICS required? Would applicant's be required to pass a test in Physics in order to be considered.

There is not one test that must taken and passed...but a minimum of 3 in my state. I've passed 4 of them. Yes one was a pro-ed test that includes various teaching, assessing, etc. strategies that only those in the education realm would be aware of.

I graduated with a bachelor's in business, not education. I made good money after college/university, but I was completely miserable-it wasn't for me.

After receiving my temporary teaching certification I had 3 years to pass an equivalency of the last 2 years an ed major takes.

I teach English and had to pass the following tests:

6-12 English subject area exam (you can't pass this test without extensive knowledge in the subject), pro-ed (which I mentioned above), and the general knowledge. ALL have to be passed. I also took and pass the social studies test, since I don't see myself teaching English forever. I will provide links to the tests and classes I had to take if you'd like me to.

You know nothing about teaching. That's ok, but when you step into the ring with people who do it for a living-you're going to get knocked out.

Every year I get evaluated by my district, principals, and AP's. They look at test scores, the gains students have made, as well as how you did stacked up against teachers at your school and district as a whole. They also do in class observations-both announced and unannounced. They'll literally walk in, sit down, and grade me based on an extensive rubric.

For me personally, I'm a level 5 instructor (out of 5) due to: my students consistently beat the school and districts averages, I get high scores on my evaluations, and when they crunch all of those numbers together I'm roughly in the top 5% of teachers in my district and I earn performance based bonuses because of such. Am I the greatest teacher on the planet? Absolutely not. Am I good teacher in demand? Absolutely. Every year I get inquiries to switch to other schools.

 

[mgh80]

When you look closely at PROFESSIONS (sometimes called "the learned professions"), there are a number of things that stand out.

Professions have a large body of esoteric knowledge, not known to the general public, which must be mastered in order to practice the Profession. And that knowledge is formally TESTED before one can practice in the Profession. If you don't pass the test, you CANNOT practice the Profession. For example, law, medicine, architecture, dentistry. Professionals must MAINTAIN their current knowledge of developments within the profession, usually through attending annual classes throughout their careers. This obligation never ends, as long as you want to retain your license.

Professions are self-regulated, and not controlled by the state. The Professional Associations are formed FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PUBLIC, and not for the benefit of the practitioners. They guarantee TO THE PUBLIC that practitioners are competent, ethical, and up to date. The State can't make you a lawyer. Only the Bar Association can admit you to the practice of law. Same for medicine, professional accounting, professional engineering, and so forth. Obtaining a state license is NOT the same as entry into a Profession.

A professional can "hang up a shingle," and work as an independent entity. Although they sometimes work for a company or a government agency, their membership in the Profession is independent of that employment; they must keep their membership current and their education up to date. If they don't, they will lose their Professional license, and probably that job as well.

As for professional conduct and performing one's professional obligations, Professionals are held to a higher standard than anyone else. Most people who are sued for malfeasance "on the job" are held to a NEGLIGENCE standard - is the act or omission something that a reasonable person would have done or declined to do? A MALPRACTICE standard requires that a Professional conduct himself according to the CURRENT state of the professional art. He must know the latest laws and applicable court decisions, a doctor must know about pharmaceuticals, procedures, and diseases that may not even have existed when he graduated from Med school. A CPA must know the latest tax laws to the minute. It is a much higher standard than any non-Professional practitioner.

A Professional can be disbarred - prevented from working in the Profession - for malfeasance that does not rise to criminality. Improper accounting, for example.

In summary, there are not many professions. Law and medicine, obviously. Architecture. And when an accountant or an engineer chooses to be come a professional, he must meet educational standards, ethical standards, pass one hell of a test, and maintain professional competence throughout his career as a professional.

So, what about Teachers?

There is no objective body of knowledge about teaching that must be mastered. Teaching methods are in fact infinite in number, some successful and some not, and nobody is keeping track. Nor are teachers required to DEMONSTRATE any particular level of competence in their area of teaching expertise. (A semester of "student teaching"? Are you kidding?). Usually a certain number of college credits is sufficient, even in STEM areas, where you would expect competence to be absolutely mandatory.

There is no professional teaching organization that works to benefit the public, or guarantees that teachers are competent, ethical, or up to date. On the contrary, the major teaching organizations are akin to LABOR UNIONS, which function EXCLUSIVELY for the benefit of TEACHERS, and one could strongly argue, AGAINST THE BENEFIT OF THE PUBLIC, by protecting lazy or incompetent teachers from ruin.

Teachers are NEVER held to a "malpractice" standard. Indeed, the very idea is laughable. ("My son can't do quadratic equations! I demand that the math teacher be dis-BARred!") They are not even held to a "negligence" standard, and can remain on the job year after year, leaving failure in their wake until their early retirement.

I think you get the idea. Teaching is NOT a Profession. Period. Many teachers display great "professionalism," in doing their work, but the sad fact is that such a standard is not required, and many teachers fall far short of that mark. Ironically, it is when teachers (and their representatives) are acting in the LEAST Professional manner (demanding more money and benefits for less work, year after year) that they DEMAND to be treated AND PAID as "professionals."

It is nauseating. A Good Teacher is a BLESSING to society, but Good Teachers don't have to DEMAND to be treated with respect; they just get it.

Excellent post. There are a few points I sgould comment on, however. There are programs in some schools that do mentor new teachers and recommend future contracts or firing afrer one year of monitoring. There is also another program where teachers lacking in the skills are mentored and can be fired as well even if they are under contract.

You are absolutely right about teacher unions. The president of AFT once said, "I'll care about the kids when they pay me my salary." So it is not about improving education or improving teacher skills (usually). It's the almighty dollar. Don't get me wrong. Teacher's do need a voice in wage negotiations, but it's generally not the union that cares about making the best teachers.

Oh, please! Not that old worn out line!

Do truck drivers have the Teamster's Union designing trucks? I guess they don't care about their employment. Unions represent teachers just like the United Mine Workers represents miners. They don't care about the quality of the coal they are mining and how much it impacts global warming.

Why do you morons ascribe duties to teacher's unions that are not expected by any other union?

It doesn't matter how much you are paid if you turn out a shitty product. I believe in merit pay.

OK, let's see your ideas on merit pay. I had a professor in graduate school who wrote a book after doing years and years of research saying that merit pay is impossible to make fair to the teachers. Someone will always lose.

I finish an assignment tomorrow where the teacher has six classes. One is full of behavior problems and they are far behind the other classes. Another class is a collaborative special ed/regular ed class. They are also far behind the other 4 regular ed classes.

How will you design a system of merit pay to treat that special ed teacher and that regular ed teacher equally?

Teachers are being tested using the Praxis system. An evaluator will come in and watch the teacher, Then they would write a report examining how the teacher kept the students focused, provided for individua; differences, performed well with discipline, an array of skills. It was meant to evaluate teachers as well. as finding those teachers whop need more skills.

Any teacher worth their salt knows that it's not about YOU do in the classroom-it's about what the kids are doing. Some of the best teachers are unorthodox, bend the norms, and do extremely well. Some go by the book and fail miserably.

PS: I'm evaluated on the Charlotte Danielson rubric.