The right Stuff

[Vrenn]

Flying The NF-104A at over 100,000 feet

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Flying The NF-104A at over 100,000 feet

Just what it is, a short film. How is it that the rocket on the end has enough fuel to take such a heavy jet and push it up 70,000 extra feet? That fuel sure isnt in the wings, and most of the internal fuel enough for that jet to get off the ground and fly for 20 minutes.

What happens when you put a rocket on a Starfighter?

When you look at the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, this is a plane that looks like it could be a rocket from some sci-fi movie or show from the old days. In some ways, it was. According to <a href="https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?…

www.wearethemighty.com

 

[Vrenn]

Just what it is, a short film. How is it that the rocket on the end has enough fuel to take such a heavy jet and push it up 70,000 extra feet? That fuel sure isnt in the wings, and most of the internal fuel enough for that jet to get off the ground and fly for 20 minutes.

Easy answer. The F-104 has a better than 1 to one thrust to weight ratio on just it's internal engine. Even by today's stadards, the F-104A is a hotrod equal to the F-22 die for thrust to weight. It had a broadcasted top speed of Mach 2.2 but the only reason it wasn't faster as the canopy couldn't stand anymore heat at a higher speed. Without the rocket assist, the F-104 was capable attaining over 103,000 feet. With that 6000lb rocket assist, it could obtain over 125,000. It did this without extra fuel as it needed to stay light for that flight.

What you were seeing wasn't just a short. It was a reaction of the flight that Chuck Yeager did. DCS is a flight simulator with fantastic graphics. Even though you thought it was real, it was a simulation of an actual historical flight.

 

[Vrenn]

Just what it is, a short film. How is it that the rocket on the end has enough fuel to take such a heavy jet and push it up 70,000 extra feet? That fuel sure isnt in the wings, and most of the internal fuel enough for that jet to get off the ground and fly for 20 minutes.

In answer to your question, the NF-104A would be doing right around Mach2.0 in a zoom climb and would cut the main engine off at 70,000 feet. The bird would, of course, begin to slow down quickly. I don't know the angle of attack but it was probably near 90deg. As in, straight up.

Now about your ding on the fuel load. The normal distance that a F-104A could do with just it's internal fuel was about 730 miles. The bird was so slick that it had a very low fuel burn rate. The combat range of a F-18 with just it's internal fuel is 430 miles.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

In answer to your question, the NF-104A would be doing right around Mach2.0 in a zoom climb and would cut the main engine off at 70,000 feet. The bird would, of course, begin to slow down quickly. I don't know the angle of attack but it was probably near 90deg. As in, straight up.

Now about your ding on the fuel load. The normal distance that a F-104A could do with just it's internal fuel was about 730 miles. The bird was so slick that it had a very low fuel burn rate. The combat range of a F-18 with just it's internal fuel is 430 miles.

Easy answer. The F-104 has a better than 1 to one thrust to weight ratio on just it's internal engine. Even by today's stadards, the F-104A is a hotrod equal to the F-22 die for thrust to weight. It had a broadcasted top speed of Mach 2.2 but the only reason it wasn't faster as the canopy couldn't stand anymore heat at a higher speed. Without the rocket assist, the F-104 was capable attaining over 103,000 feet. With that 6000lb rocket assist, it could obtain over 125,000. It did this without extra fuel as it needed to stay light for that flight.

What you were seeing wasn't just a short. It was a reaction of the flight that Chuck Yeager did. DCS is a flight simulator with fantastic graphics. Even though you thought it was real, it was a simulation of an actual historical flight.

I knew it wasnt real, because i have worked around A-10s, F-15s and F-16s. I also know that a rocket uses different types of fuel compared to jets which require JP4 or JP8 fuels. Here is a bit of knowledge that i just did some research on, without the rocket boost.

May 18, 1958: F-104 Starfighter Breaks World Speed Record - History and Headlines

Capable of Mach 2 flight, the F-104 was the first production jet fighter to regularly fly at that speed, with a top speed of Mach 2 (1528 mph) and an altitude record of 103,389 feet, becoming the first jet powered (air breathing as opposed to rocket powered) plane to reach the 100.000 foot milestone.

So yeah, the jet did break the 100,000 foot mark, but wasnt with some bogus CGI rocket on it.

 

[Vrenn]

I knew it wasnt real, because i have worked around A-10s, F-15s and F-16s. I also know that a rocket uses different types of fuel compared to jets which require JP4 or JP8 fuels. Here is a bit of knowledge that i just did some research on, without the rocket boost.

May 18, 1958: F-104 Starfighter Breaks World Speed Record - History and Headlines So yeah, the jet did break the 100,000 foot mark, but wasnt with some bogus CGI rocket on it.

Okay, it could get to 103,000 feet without the rocket. At that point, it had to go down and it had to be careful with the fuel consumption. But with that Rocket the jet could stay for a few minutes at 120,000 feet and a soon to be Astronaut could have the time to train on the directional jets just like he would if he were in space in a capsule or like he would if he were in the Shuttle. And it could be done for less than 50,000 bucks with a reasonable rate of returning. In order to still have JP4 fuel, it would have to shut down the engine at 70,000 feet. Without the Rocket, it couldn't even make 100,000 feet if the engine were to be shut down at 70K. But Astronauts trained in the NF-104A at 103,000 feet with plenty of jet fuel to restart the engine on the way down and make it home with a bit left over.

The F-104Cs record of over 103,000 feet stood for many years. Even the F-15 could only do just over 98,000. It took the Mig-25 to beat that record with just over 123,000 feet. The F-104C held that record for two decades. And it's still held by the Mig-25. Actually, it's held by E-266 version which is a stripped down and lightened version. To this day, the record for the F-104A is classified. At least, I can't find out the real deal on the A. The A was lighter and even more streamlined than the C so reason says it should have flown higher. But when usaf was flying it, they kept a lot of info private. The C did it in full Military trim including live ammo.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Okay, it could get to 103,000 feet without the rocket. At that point, it had to go down and it had to be careful with the fuel consumption. But with that Rocket the jet could stay for a few minutes at 120,000 feet and a soon to be Astronaut could have the time to train on the directional jets just like he would if he were in space in a capsule or like he would if he were in the Shuttle. And it could be done for less than 50,000 bucks with a reasonable rate of returning. In order to still have JP4 fuel, it would have to shut down the engine at 70,000 feet. Without the Rocket, it couldn't even make 100,000 feet if the engine were to be shut down at 70K. But Astronauts trained in the NF-104A at 103,000 feet with plenty of jet fuel to restart the engine on the way down and make it home with a bit left over.

The F-104Cs record of over 103,000 feet stood for many years. Even the F-15 could only do just over 98,000. It took the Mig-25 to beat that record with just over 123,000 feet. The F-104C held that record for two decades. And it's still held by the Mig-25. Actually, it's held by E-266 version which is a stripped down and lightened version. To this day, the record for the F-104A is classified. At least, I can't find out the real deal on the A. The A was lighter and even more streamlined than the C so reason says it should have flown higher. But when usaf was flying it, they kept a lot of info private. The C did it in full Military trim including live ammo.

Of course the SR-71 beat all flight records for jet propelled aircraft.

 

[Vrenn]

Of course the SR-71 beat all flight records for jet propelled aircraft.

Actually, the SR-71 only holds only records for speed. records and it was never taken above just over 85,000 feet. I heard that it could be taken to over 90,000 feet but you know that those pilots always flew the way they were told to fly. According to at least one pilot that flew it, they never flew the SR as fast it could go nor as high as it could go because there was always more capability than they used. The SR was just too finicky to run it until it couldn't go any further where the engines are shut down and momentum takes it higher. It couldn't restart the engine so that Mig-25 record still stands. And the SR took that absolute speed record for a manned air breathing AC by only .1 mach from the Model 266 Mig-25. That is point 1 mach. Mach 3.3 versus Mach 3.2. Of course, the Mig was the Recon version and would probably fry an engine on the way home. That's like saying the F-15Es max speed is Mach 2.5 under full authorized power and running slick. What most don't understand, there is a setting above the authorized top speed. It's called V-Max where you are leaving engine parts behind you getting away from any and all missiles and aircraft. The difference is, the SR and the 25 could make it home after those kinds of speed and the SR would still (probably) have use of both engines on the flight home.



In 1976, the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird broke the world’s record for sustained altitude in horizontal flight at 25,929 meters (85,069 feet). The same day another SR-71 set an absolute speed record of 3,529.6 kilometers per hour (2,193.2 miles per hour), approximately Mach 3.3.

The SR-71 took a very long time (by jets) to get up to just over Mach 2 where it's engines would go from turbojets to hybypass (Ram) engines. And it took a lot of altitude to get that kind of speed. During that time period, the absolute altitude was done by the F-104 and then the Mig-25 which still has that record. Where the SR comes into it's own is whatever allows it for speed. And zero records were ever set at low altitudes. It needed at least 70,000 feet to allow it's engines to come into power along with it needed at least mach 2 before they came into their power band. The SR was a virtual leaking pig until it went supersonic and it got some altitude.

If all conditions were favorable, the Mig-25 was quite capable of shooting down a SR-71. The 25 would have to be in the right speed and the right altitude to get the shot. You see, the Mig-25 was flown (with both engines running) at over 90,000 feet.