The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[MartyNYC]

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

Actually Native Americans are only 1.6% of the US population,
Native Canadians are about 4.5% of Canada population.

In spite of your claim,
majority of the people born in those countries,
are specifically not defined as natives, or actually belong to any of the native tribes.

If people born in palestine are natives, how come nobody is named Palestini?

View attachment 362596

Most common Israeli surnames are - Peretz, Mizrahi, Cohen, Levy, Avraham and Dahan etc.

Some Israeli Jews have surnames like the ones on Your list: Halebi, Tarablusi or Alfasi...

They do indicate location of diaspora, as much as with many of the East European diaspora,
but what sets the native tribes of those places from the native tribes of Judea, Israel,
is that Judeans carrying these surnames kept their distinct native culture,
to preserve their civilization and re-constitute it in later generations.

I know numerous Israelis with the surname Israeli. How come there is no record of even 1 person named Palestini?

Because the word 'Palestine' has no meaning in Arabic.

Arabs call it Filastin, which isn’t an actual Arabic name—Filastin was the Arab version of Roman Palaestina adopted by Arabs after the Arab conquest of Syria which had been under Roman/Byzantine rule. Roman Palaestina was imposed on Jews centuries earlier.

 

[Taz]

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

Actually Native Americans are only 1.6% of the US population,
Native Canadians are about 4.5% of Canada population.

In spite of your claim,
majority of the people born in those countries,
are specifically not defined as natives, or actually belong to any of the native tribes.

They absolutely are natives. I'm a native American, born there, even though I'm a White guy, I'm still native to America.

And remember, the Indians walked over from Asia during the last ice age, so by your definition, they aren't natives either.

 

[Taz]

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

If you are born in Catalonia are you a native of Spain or Catalonia?

You're both. But if Catalonia separates, then the newborn will be natives of Catalonia. The rest were still born in Spain.

 

[Shusha]

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

If you are born in Catalonia are you a native of Spain or Catalonia?

You're both. But if Catalonia separates, then the newborn will be natives of Catalonia. The rest were still born in Spain.

See? Already its not so very simple as you stated in your first post.

You were deliberately conflating a people with a nationality (State) in your opening post above. Since there is no nationality of Palestinian, as you've demonstrated above concerning Catalans, there can be no natives of Palestine, just as there can be no natives of Catalonia. Unless and until Palestine (and Catalonia) separates from existing States and becomes its own separate nationality, all children are natives to the State they are born in.

Thus, your opening post contradicts your clarifying statement.

Now, Israel IS a State. So, while stating "anyone born in Palestine is a native of Palestine" is inconsistent with your clarifying claim, a corrected statement might read: anyone born in Israel is a native of Israel. And that would be consistent with your initial post.

We have two additional confounding factors.

If someone is of Catalan descent but is born in Spain is she native of Catalonia or of Spain? You can answer that from the perspective of both pre- and post- separation. If someone is of Catalan descent and is born on territory claimed by Catalonia, over which Spain does NOT exert sovereignty, but prior to Catalonia separating and becoming a State, is she a native of Catalonia or of Spain? Or would she be stateless? If someone is of Spanish descent and is born in territory claimed by Catalonia, over which Spain does NOT exert sovereignty, but prior to Catalonia separating and becoming a State, is she a native of Catalonia or of Spain? Or would she be stateless?

 

[MartyNYC]

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

If you are born in Catalonia are you a native of Spain or Catalonia?

You're both. But if Catalonia separates, then the newborn will be natives of Catalonia. The rest were still born in Spain.

Since Jews were born in “Palestine,” they were Palestinians as are their descendants Palestinians.

 

[Taz]

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

If you are born in Catalonia are you a native of Spain or Catalonia?

You're both. But if Catalonia separates, then the newborn will be natives of Catalonia. The rest were still born in Spain.

See? Already its not so very simple as you stated in your first post.

You were deliberately conflating a people with a nationality (State) in your opening post above. Since there is no nationality of Palestinian, as you've demonstrated above concerning Catalans, there can be no natives of Palestine, just as there can be no natives of Catalonia. Unless and until Palestine (and Catalonia) separates from existing States and becomes its own separate nationality, all children are natives to the State they are born in.

Thus, your opening post contradicts your clarifying statement.

Now, Israel IS a State. So, while stating "anyone born in Palestine is a native of Palestine" is inconsistent with your clarifying claim, a corrected statement might read: anyone born in Israel is a native of Israel. And that would be consistent with your initial post.

We have two additional confounding factors.

If someone is of Catalan descent but is born in Spain is she native of Catalonia or of Spain? You can answer that from the perspective of both pre- and post- separation. If someone is of Catalan descent and is born on territory claimed by Catalonia, over which Spain does NOT exert sovereignty, but prior to Catalonia separating and becoming a State, is she a native of Catalonia or of Spain? Or would she be stateless? If someone is of Spanish descent and is born in territory claimed by Catalonia, over which Spain does NOT exert sovereignty, but prior to Catalonia separating and becoming a State, is she a native of Catalonia or of Spain? Or would she be stateless?

Palestine is simply an area, like North America. You can be native to North America.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
⁜→ Taz, rylah, et al,

BLUF: I think that there is confusion in the usage. And the misuse.
(Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law)

◈ There is the "nationality principle (of jurisdiction)." (Page 406)​

​

◈ There are "native communities." (Page 406) (Native communities (Indian Tribes) are different from Indigenous communities. All tribal or native communities are Indigenous Communities, but not all Indigenous Communities are tribal or native communities.​

​

◈ There is a definition for the Right of Indigenous Peoples. (Page 277)​

And then there is the Concise Oxford American Dictionary

◈ Na-tive A-mer-i-can n. a member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. (Page 589)​

​

◈ Na-tive /' nativ/ n. a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not; (Page 589)​

​

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

Actually Native Americans are only 1.6% of the US population, Native Canadians are about 4.5% of Canada population. In spite of your claim, majority of the people born in those countries, are specifically not defined as natives, or actually belong to any of the native tribes.

They absolutely are natives. I'm a native American, born there, even though I'm a White guy, I'm still native to America.

And remember, the Indians walked over from Asia during the last ice age, so by your definition, they aren't natives either.

(COMMENT)

Our friend "rylah" is correct in terms of the general understanding of the applied term. "Taz" is not quite as correct. There is a difference in the meaning of "Native to America" and "Native American." In fluent American English, the terms "Native Americans," and "American Indians," are nearly equivalent. I am a 2d Generation American or U.S. citizenship born in the territory of the United States. We do not use the term "Native American" except when referring to American Indians. However, those born in the US can (awkwardly) be referred to as indigenous Americans.


Most Respectfully,
R

native communities ‘It is clear that some indigenous communities were regarded not only as legal occupants of their territory but as fully sovereign States in international law. Although some writers required a certain degree of “civilization” as a prerequisite for statehood, it had long been established that the only necessary precondition was a degree of governmental authority sufficient for the general maintenance of order, and subsequent practice was not sufficiently consistent or coherent to change that position. … This did not necessarily mean that same rules were applied to or by such States as were by European States between themselves. But that is to be explained not by any distinction between “civilized” and “barbarous” States but because many of those rules were what would now be called regional customs rather than general international law’:

nationality principle (of jurisdiction) According to the Harvard Research Draft Convention on Jurisdiction with Respect to Crime ( 1935 ), ‘A State has jurisdiction with respect to an crime committed outside its territory (a) by a natural person who was a national of that State when the crime was committed or who is a national of that State when prosecuted or punished; or (b) by a corporation or other juristic person which had the national character of that State when the crime was committed.

indigenous peoples, right of After a protracted period of negotiation, on 7 September 2007 , the General Assembly adopted (as Res. 61/295) the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples which accords rights to indigenous peoples, without defining the term. These rights include self-determination (art. 3; see also arts. 26 and 27), though this might amount to no more than autonomy (art. 4); the maintenance and strengthening of their distinct political, economic, social, and cultural characteristics, as well as their legal systems, while retaining their right to full participation in the political, economic, social, and cultural life of the State (art. 5); freedom from discrimination (arts. 2 and 9);

 

[Shusha]

In Canada, the preferred terminology is First Nations, Inuit and Metis. But that is shifting into terminology of individual nations according to how they self-identify. Such as the Musquem, the Matsqui First Nation, the Squamish Nation, etc.

 

[MartyNYC]

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

If you are born in Catalonia are you a native of Spain or Catalonia?

You're both. But if Catalonia separates, then the newborn will be natives of Catalonia. The rest were still born in Spain.

See? Already its not so very simple as you stated in your first post.

You were deliberately conflating a people with a nationality (State) in your opening post above. Since there is no nationality of Palestinian, as you've demonstrated above concerning Catalans, there can be no natives of Palestine, just as there can be no natives of Catalonia. Unless and until Palestine (and Catalonia) separates from existing States and becomes its own separate nationality, all children are natives to the State they are born in.

Thus, your opening post contradicts your clarifying statement.

Now, Israel IS a State. So, while stating "anyone born in Palestine is a native of Palestine" is inconsistent with your clarifying claim, a corrected statement might read: anyone born in Israel is a native of Israel. And that would be consistent with your initial post.

We have two additional confounding factors.

If someone is of Catalan descent but is born in Spain is she native of Catalonia or of Spain? You can answer that from the perspective of both pre- and post- separation. If someone is of Catalan descent and is born on territory claimed by Catalonia, over which Spain does NOT exert sovereignty, but prior to Catalonia separating and becoming a State, is she a native of Catalonia or of Spain? Or would she be stateless? If someone is of Spanish descent and is born in territory claimed by Catalonia, over which Spain does NOT exert sovereignty, but prior to Catalonia separating and becoming a State, is she a native of Catalonia or of Spain? Or would she be stateless?

Palestine is simply an area, like North America. You can be native to North America.

Who founded the area of palestine?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
⁜→ MartyNYC, et al,

This is a trick question.

Who founded the area of palestine?

(COMMENT)

There is evidence that there have been people in the Mount Carmel (Southern Levant) Region for more than 90K years back to the Stone Age. There are archeological finds showing the Mousterian culture active across most of the Middle East North Africa territories, before the great Empires. (Neanderthalic Activity)

I have no idea who the first ruler was that began to map out the regions and give them names. But certainly, back before the ancient languages faded away, no one knows what the words sounded like.

​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
⁜→ MartyNYC, et al,

This is a trick question.

Who founded the area of palestine?

(COMMENT)

There is evidence that there have been people in the Mount Carmel (Southern Levant) Region for more than 90K years back to the Stone Age. There are archeological finds showing the Mousterian culture active across most of the Middle East North Africa territories, before the great Empires. (Neanderthalic Activity)

I have no idea who the first ruler was that began to map out the regions and give them names. But certainly, back before the ancient languages faded away, no one knows what the words sounded like.

View attachment 362917View attachment 362918
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestine, originally a Greek name, originally referred to a narrow sliver of the Mediterranean coast inhabited by Philistines, raiders from the Greek world. However, Philistines didn‘t name anything Palestine. In fact, Philistines didn’t name themselves Philistines...

 

[esalla]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
⁜→ MartyNYC, et al,

This is a trick question.

Who founded the area of palestine?

(COMMENT)

There is evidence that there have been people in the Mount Carmel (Southern Levant) Region for more than 90K years back to the Stone Age. There are archeological finds showing the Mousterian culture active across most of the Middle East North Africa territories, before the great Empires. (Neanderthalic Activity)

I have no idea who the first ruler was that began to map out the regions and give them names. But certainly, back before the ancient languages faded away, no one knows what the words sounded like.

View attachment 362917View attachment 362918
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestine, originally a Greek name, originally referred to a narrow sliver of the Mediterranean coast inhabited by Philistines, raiders from the Greek world. However, Philistines didn‘t name anything Palestine. In fact, Philistines didn’t name themselves Philistines...

View attachment 362939

What is a palestine?

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
⁜→ MartyNYC, et al,

This is a trick question.

Who founded the area of palestine?

(COMMENT)

There is evidence that there have been people in the Mount Carmel (Southern Levant) Region for more than 90K years back to the Stone Age. There are archeological finds showing the Mousterian culture active across most of the Middle East North Africa territories, before the great Empires. (Neanderthalic Activity)

I have no idea who the first ruler was that began to map out the regions and give them names. But certainly, back before the ancient languages faded away, no one knows what the words sounded like.

View attachment 362917View attachment 362918
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestine, originally a Greek name, originally referred to a narrow sliver of the Mediterranean coast inhabited by Philistines, raiders from the Greek world. However, Philistines didn‘t name anything Palestine. In fact, Philistines didn’t name themselves Philistines...

View attachment 362939

What is a palestine?

Palestine is a Greek pirate.

 

[Taz]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
⁜→ Taz, rylah, et al,

BLUF: I think that there is confusion in the usage. And the misuse.
(Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law)

◈ There is the "nationality principle (of jurisdiction)." (Page 406)​

​

◈ There are "native communities." (Page 406) (Native communities (Indian Tribes) are different from Indigenous communities. All tribal or native communities are Indigenous Communities, but not all Indigenous Communities are tribal or native communities.​

​

◈ There is a definition for the Right of Indigenous Peoples. (Page 277)​

And then there is the Concise Oxford American Dictionary

◈ Na-tive A-mer-i-can n. a member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. (Page 589)​

​

◈ Na-tive /' nativ/ n. a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not; (Page 589)​

​

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

Actually Native Americans are only 1.6% of the US population, Native Canadians are about 4.5% of Canada population. In spite of your claim, majority of the people born in those countries, are specifically not defined as natives, or actually belong to any of the native tribes.

They absolutely are natives. I'm a native American, born there, even though I'm a White guy, I'm still native to America.

And remember, the Indians walked over from Asia during the last ice age, so by your definition, they aren't natives either.

(COMMENT)

Our friend "rylah" is correct in terms of the general understanding of the applied term. "Taz" is not quite as correct. There is a difference in the meaning of "Native to America" and "Native American." In fluent American English, the terms "Native Americans," and "American Indians," are nearly equivalent. I am a 2d Generation American or U.S. citizenship born in the territory of the United States. We do not use the term "Native American" except when referring to American Indians. However, those born in the US can (awkwardly) be referred to as indigenous Americans.


Most Respectfully,
R

native communities ‘It is clear that some indigenous communities were regarded not only as legal occupants of their territory but as fully sovereign States in international law. Although some writers required a certain degree of “civilization” as a prerequisite for statehood, it had long been established that the only necessary precondition was a degree of governmental authority sufficient for the general maintenance of order, and subsequent practice was not sufficiently consistent or coherent to change that position. … This did not necessarily mean that same rules were applied to or by such States as were by European States between themselves. But that is to be explained not by any distinction between “civilized” and “barbarous” States but because many of those rules were what would now be called regional customs rather than general international law’:

nationality principle (of jurisdiction) According to the Harvard Research Draft Convention on Jurisdiction with Respect to Crime ( 1935 ), ‘A State has jurisdiction with respect to an crime committed outside its territory (a) by a natural person who was a national of that State when the crime was committed or who is a national of that State when prosecuted or punished; or (b) by a corporation or other juristic person which had the national character of that State when the crime was committed.

indigenous peoples, right of After a protracted period of negotiation, on 7 September 2007 , the General Assembly adopted (as Res. 61/295) the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples which accords rights to indigenous peoples, without defining the term. These rights include self-determination (art. 3; see also arts. 26 and 27), though this might amount to no more than autonomy (art. 4); the maintenance and strengthening of their distinct political, economic, social, and cultural characteristics, as well as their legal systems, while retaining their right to full participation in the political, economic, social, and cultural life of the State (art. 5); freedom from discrimination (arts. 2 and 9);

Bite me. Anyone born in Canada is a native Canadian.

Indians aren’t even native to the Americas, they came over from Europe during the last ice age.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
⁜→ Taz, rylah, et al,

BLUF: I think that there is confusion in the usage. And the misuse.
(Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law)

◈ There is the "nationality principle (of jurisdiction)." (Page 406)​

​

◈ There are "native communities." (Page 406) (Native communities (Indian Tribes) are different from Indigenous communities. All tribal or native communities are Indigenous Communities, but not all Indigenous Communities are tribal or native communities.​

​

◈ There is a definition for the Right of Indigenous Peoples. (Page 277)​

And then there is the Concise Oxford American Dictionary

◈ Na-tive A-mer-i-can n. a member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. (Page 589)​

​

◈ Na-tive /' nativ/ n. a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not; (Page 589)​

​

Anyone born in Palestine is native to Palestine. See how that works? Very simple.

Really, every one born in America is a Native American?

That’s right. I’m born in America and that makes me a native American. If you’re born in Germany, you’re a native German. ...

Actually Native Americans are only 1.6% of the US population, Native Canadians are about 4.5% of Canada population. In spite of your claim, majority of the people born in those countries, are specifically not defined as natives, or actually belong to any of the native tribes.

They absolutely are natives. I'm a native American, born there, even though I'm a White guy, I'm still native to America.

And remember, the Indians walked over from Asia during the last ice age, so by your definition, they aren't natives either.

(COMMENT)

Our friend "rylah" is correct in terms of the general understanding of the applied term. "Taz" is not quite as correct. There is a difference in the meaning of "Native to America" and "Native American." In fluent American English, the terms "Native Americans," and "American Indians," are nearly equivalent. I am a 2d Generation American or U.S. citizenship born in the territory of the United States. We do not use the term "Native American" except when referring to American Indians. However, those born in the US can (awkwardly) be referred to as indigenous Americans.


Most Respectfully,
R

native communities ‘It is clear that some indigenous communities were regarded not only as legal occupants of their territory but as fully sovereign States in international law. Although some writers required a certain degree of “civilization” as a prerequisite for statehood, it had long been established that the only necessary precondition was a degree of governmental authority sufficient for the general maintenance of order, and subsequent practice was not sufficiently consistent or coherent to change that position. … This did not necessarily mean that same rules were applied to or by such States as were by European States between themselves. But that is to be explained not by any distinction between “civilized” and “barbarous” States but because many of those rules were what would now be called regional customs rather than general international law’:

nationality principle (of jurisdiction) According to the Harvard Research Draft Convention on Jurisdiction with Respect to Crime ( 1935 ), ‘A State has jurisdiction with respect to an crime committed outside its territory (a) by a natural person who was a national of that State when the crime was committed or who is a national of that State when prosecuted or punished; or (b) by a corporation or other juristic person which had the national character of that State when the crime was committed.

indigenous peoples, right of After a protracted period of negotiation, on 7 September 2007 , the General Assembly adopted (as Res. 61/295) the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples which accords rights to indigenous peoples, without defining the term. These rights include self-determination (art. 3; see also arts. 26 and 27), though this might amount to no more than autonomy (art. 4); the maintenance and strengthening of their distinct political, economic, social, and cultural characteristics, as well as their legal systems, while retaining their right to full participation in the political, economic, social, and cultural life of the State (art. 5); freedom from discrimination (arts. 2 and 9);

Bite me. Anyone born in Canada is a native Canadian.

Indians aren’t even native to the Americas, they came over from Europe during the last ice age.

Since palestine was originally named for Philistine pirates from the Greek world, does that mean palestinians are descended from Greek pirates?

 

[watchingfromafar]

rather that G-d has His plans,
and because G-d chose to carry His Name in Israel.

God is all powerful and if He wanted to He could snap his fingers together and all would be as He wishes it to be, but He didn't and won't because He left it up to the Israelite's to choose what to do instead. God doesn't want puppets on a string He wants followers who obey His commandments, follow His instructions and if they comply they will multiply and prosper; if not they will not.
They are not------
..According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."
Jewish population by country - Wikipedia

bye.,.,.bye..,.bye.,.,.,gone.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,., to never be seen again
-

 

[MartyNYC]

Palestine never existed.

 

[watchingfromafar]

Bite me. Anyone born in Canada is a native Canadian.

The Jews lived in Egypt longer than any other place. In the beginning they had no homeland and were shepherds on the open plain.

 

[watchingfromafar]

(Gen 41:39 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath showed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:

(Gen 41:40 KJV) Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

(Gen 41:42 KJV) And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

(Gen 41:44 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Gen 41:46 KJV) And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh King of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt.

 

[watchingfromafar]

(Gen 42:5 KJV) And the sons of Israel came to buy corn among those that came: for the famine was in the land of Canaan.

(Gen 42:25 KJV) Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way:

(Gen 45:20 KJV) Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

See above, they abandon the land of Canaan and move to Egypt

(Gen 45:21 KJV) And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

(Gen 47:1 KJV) Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father [ISRAEL] and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:3 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.
-