The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't see any clear cut question or statement of facts to refute.

Go ahead and refute those facts.

I'll wait.

(COMMENT)

You'll want a long time → until I see what it is you are trying to stand-up as a fact (or set of facts)...

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't see any clear cut question or statement of facts to refute.

Go ahead and refute those facts.

I'll wait.

(COMMENT)

You'll want a long time → until I see what it is you are trying to stand-up as a fact (or set of facts)...

Most Respectfully,
R

My post.

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel.

Could you elaborate on how Israel got legal title to Palestinian land?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

Why do you keep mentioning Jordan. Jordan is a foreign country. It has no say about Palestinian land or borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question.

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

 

[Hollie]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel.

Could you elaborate on how Israel got legal title to Palestinian land?

It has been explained to you literally dozens of times that Palestinians never had sovereignty over any lands.

Why not supply a number to identify how many more times that needs to be explained to you.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

I don't know about those of you who live outside reality.

The territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, west of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers, as well as the Dead Sea, has (currently) - area demarcations that include:

◈ Gaza Strip​

✦ Safe Passage Routes​

✦ Maritime Activity Zone​

✦ Maritime Trafic Blockade​

◈ Jerusalem​

✦ East​

✦ West​

◈ West Bank​

✦ Area "A"​

✦ Area "B"​

✦ Area "C"​

If I'm getting too complicated for you, just let me know.

Why do you keep mentioning Jordan. Jordan is a foreign country. It has no say about Palestinian land or borders.

(COMMENT)

Jordan has a Treaty with Israel. Without prejudice to the status of the West Bank, the border between the two countries encapsulates the West Bank.

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

See the answer to the first issue here.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel.

Could you elaborate on how Israel got legal title to Palestinian land?

It has been explained to you literally dozens of times that Palestinians never had sovereignty over any lands.

Why not supply a number to identify how many more times that needs to be explained to you.

Palestine was Britain’s fictional name for the British Mandate, which led to Israeli statehood, from a Roman name imposed on Jews, palaestina. Roman palaestina referred to Jews’ Philistine enemies who were related to Greeks. Jews were called “palestinians“ in the British Mandate.

Prior to the British Mandate, there wasn’t any place “palestine” for 400 years of the Ottoman Empire.

There never has been a place “palestine“ founded by a people “palestinians.“

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question.

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

There have been many Treaties and Agreements after The Great War (WWI).

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

What about it do you refute?

(COMMENT)

Even the International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot, at this time, answer that question. And obviously, it is not an easy question to answer. The Arab Palestinians have not yet offered a reply to the ICC on the question.

(DIRECTLY TO THE QUESTION OF DEMARCATION)

The boundary demarcations that exist today, pertaining to the immediately adjacent areas to Israel, are established by either effective control or sovereign control. Israel has made it abundantly clear what territory they hold under their sovereign control and what areas they maintain (Article 42 and Article 43 Hague Regulation of 1907) under effective control for the purposes of safety, security, law, and order necessary to hold the regional security together.

Most of the Treaties, Conventions, and Agreement that "directly" related to the Demarcations in the immediate area that was formerly held in abeyance under the Order in Council for Palestine have lapsed, terminated and replaced, or overtaken by events.

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel. For instance, the "administrative boundary" between Israel to the West and Jordan to the East follows the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers and the Center of the Dead Sea.

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.” Yet both Israel and Jordan recognize the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate. In 1988, when the Hashemite Kingdom abandon the West Bank, there was no Arab Palestinian independence over the territory.

Even to this day, the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unsure of the status of the Oslo Agreements between Palestine and Israel. That means the status of the Oslo Agreements has been unknow for some period of time in the past. When did the Oslo Accords end, if indeed they ended at all?

Most Respectfully,
R

IF you hold onto the very last signed agreements, THEN neither the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem are under the sovereign control of the Arab Palestinians; except as may be granted by Israel.

Could you elaborate on how Israel got legal title to Palestinian land?

It has been explained to you literally dozens of times that Palestinians never had sovereignty over any lands.

Why not supply a number to identify how many more times that needs to be explained to you.

Arafat, father of “palestinian“ nationalism, was born and educated in Egypt. There is no “palestinian“ language, religion, culture, or historical identity.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

I don't know about those of you who live outside reality.

The territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, west of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers, as well as the Dead Sea, has (currently) - area demarcations that include:

◈ Gaza Strip​

✦ Safe Passage Routes​

✦ Maritime Activity Zone​

✦ Maritime Trafic Blockade​

◈ Jerusalem​

✦ East​

✦ West​

◈ West Bank​

✦ Area "A"​

✦ Area "B"​

✦ Area "C"​

If I'm getting too complicated for you, just let me know.

Why do you keep mentioning Jordan. Jordan is a foreign country. It has no say about Palestinian land or borders.

(COMMENT)

Jordan has a Treaty with Israel. Without prejudice to the status of the West Bank, the border between the two countries encapsulates the West Bank.

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

See the answer to the first issue here.

Most Respectfully,
R

If I'm getting too complicated for you, just let me know.

Not complicated, just irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with borders. This doesn't have anything to do with my post.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

I don't know about those of you who live outside reality.

The territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, west of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers, as well as the Dead Sea, has (currently) - area demarcations that include:

◈ Gaza Strip​

✦ Safe Passage Routes​

✦ Maritime Activity Zone​

✦ Maritime Trafic Blockade​

◈ Jerusalem​

✦ East​

✦ West​

◈ West Bank​

✦ Area "A"​

✦ Area "B"​

✦ Area "C"​

If I'm getting too complicated for you, just let me know.

Why do you keep mentioning Jordan. Jordan is a foreign country. It has no say about Palestinian land or borders.

(COMMENT)

Jordan has a Treaty with Israel. Without prejudice to the status of the West Bank, the border between the two countries encapsulates the West Bank.

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

See the answer to the first issue here.

Most Respectfully,
R

If I'm getting too complicated for you, just let me know.

Not complicated, just irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with borders. This doesn't have anything to do with my post.

Britain established borders of “palestine“ in the British Mandate, named “palestine” by Britain, which ceased to exist with Israeli statehood. “Palestinian Charter” gives authority to Britain for borders.

 

[Shusha]

Could you elaborate on how Israel got legal title to Palestinian land?

You are asking the wrong question (again). You are confusing land and title to land with sovereignty (again). The title to land can change hands with sales agreements, and the sovereignty to specific land can change hands with treaties (as long as there is another sovereign to treat with).

The right question is, therefore, "How did Israel (read: the Jewish people, as a people with rights to self-determination) obtain sovereignty over the territory labelled and demarcated as "Palestine" in the post-WWI documents?"

Here's the answer:
1. The Jewish people were recognized as having an existing, valid claim to sovereignty in the Jewish homeland.
2. The Jewish people, following the conventions of the Montivideo Convention, fulfilled the criteria for sovereignty.
3. The Jewish people's government established, actual, concrete control over the territory.

That's it. Job done.

 

[Shusha]

Why do you keep mentioning Jordan. Jordan is a foreign country. It has no say about Palestinian land or borders.

Patently incorrect. The two sovereigns who have the say in borders between Israel and Jordan are ... wait for ti ... Israel and Jordan. There are no others sovereigns at the moment. So no one else has a say.

 

[Shusha]

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

This is both true and not true. True the territory we are discussing (actually Israel) has never been partitioned in the meaning of creating international borders between sovereigns. HOWEVER, Israel (call it Palestine if it makes you happy) has several boundary or demarcation lines which represent different areas governed by various different treaties. There ARE demarcation lines. They aren't international boundaries. Because there are not (yet) two sovereigns within the territory.

 

[rylah]

think history has shown that lesson well, numerous times and especially recently. Some who were drawn by the Emancipation and a dream of equality through assimilation in Germany, tried to declare literally just what You've proposed. Which would be a healthy philosophical question for all nations, if they can build their own Jerusalem in their countries, but for Jews it's kinda like inviting problem, don't You think?

That is why I was talking not about living in some place as a 'closed' national and religious minority, but importing with themselves their culture and governance. Not assimilate Jews into some other culture but on the contrary, 'assimilate' this culture into Jewish.

I am not arguing about uniqueness of Jerusalem for the Jews. And not advocating it to be 'carried out' to some other place or be replaced by something.

By new Jerusalem I mean another country (in addition to Israel) being organized as a mainly Jewish state.

Frankly, not sure I understand.

Let me give personal example - my family on my father's side 22 generations returned from today's Iraq, but in the family tradition it's emphasized that they actually never left because their village was inside the promised border. Some managed to stay in today's Syria, some in Lebanon. Some others in Yemen who were exiled long before us, upon hearing of Shabtay Zvi sold their entire community property, wore Shabbat cloths and prepared to be lifted to Israel...

Let's put aside the 'religion talk' and look from a cultural, even legal perspective - there's no such cultural archetype, or legal mechanism. Jewish law itself is attached to a defined boundary. If nations would want to become subjects of Israeli rule, this can be done in a parliamentary monarchy, but there's a big question whether Jewish law that applies to the land of Israel can be applied there, i.e. if Jews can fulfill basic agricultural commandments and include it into the Sabbatical year and Jubilee, from which essentially stem the whole practical basis of the law, the essence of the Jewish archetypal connection to a specific land and her natural cycles.

There's no cultural archetype or mechanism, to expand cultural boundaries,
beyond land where Torah law doesn't apply fully to Jews.

Well, I can't articulate my idea properly, because I myself have only a vague vision of it. You maybe have a question of how this even came to my mind. I will explain. I live in a country where there are some amount of people who believe in a conspiracy that tells about a desire of the Jews to create in this country a second Israel.

I don't particularly take this into consideration seriously, but once I thought - well, maybe this isn't a bad idea as a whole. We as a nation aren't capable of creating and governing a prosperous state. And inviting 'overseas' rulers who once had connections to this land may help to resolve this. And this rulers shouldn't be enclosed community which live in a parallel reality.

This once happened in the history of our land, btw, and it had very good consequences.

But of course, that is only a pure theory now.

Wow, so many conflicting thoughts about this.
I actually lived in Your country for 2 years, when my cousin went to manage a factory opening, but never heard about this specific conspiracy being circulated in public. Such are commonly brought up as a blood libel, it's totally counter intuitive that someone perceives it positively.

This is essentially a messianic thought, and let me clarify. maybe that helps with what is vague. When I say 'messianic thought', I don't mean a vision of Israel ruling the world, rather "and the families of the land will be blessed in You", which practically means advice. The Jewish vision of a corrected world is one where the families of nations are each expressing their own self, rather than canceling their historic and indigenous sovereignty, to align with a post-conflict reality in a world in which the knowledge of G-d covers it like water the oceans.

But frankly, recently that I saw Zelensky being put as president, raised all sorts alarms with me, mainly the well-being of the remnant diaspora in such an environment, after the televised opposition arrests by the Bandera gang, now they put a Jewish comedian on top..
That certainly serves these kind of conspiracies in the public, and exactly the expression of what I was alarmed about.

To sum it up - any nation can strive to build her own 'new Jerusalem', but this can only be achieved by acknowledging Jerusalem of the G-d of Israel. And that is not a vision of Jewish rule over foreign lands, rather of in-gathering of diaspora and advice as a sovereign nation to sovereign nations. Each nation with their 'new Jerusalem' and Israel as a nation of priests in their Jerusalem as allotted by the G-d of Israel.
In Halachic terms, we cannot serve at Your altars and temples, or build ours in foreign lands, but we are obligated, if You ask, to teach and assist in giving and offering, and even serve Your offerings in Jerusalem, if it is for the G-d of Israel.

And then Zelensky could be at most an emissary...but who knows, if Jerenovsky 'my father was a lawyer' says there's a conspiracy to make Ukraine a new Jerusalem, then it must be speaking at least to some in the diaspora, I already mentioned, this happened in a very likely environment, only without Zelensky, but very recently,

And that's why promotion and encouragement of the repatriation to Israel, from Your country is of top national priority, as opposed to what populist conspiracies say. The history of Odessa and Kiev will always remain Jewish, but so will also the latest burning of the people in the municipality centers. Many, if not most Soviet immigrants, when brought in private conversations are opposed to cooperation with Kiev.

 

[rylah]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ MartyNYC,, Hollie, et al,

It is all good background information but hardly addresses the implication being made that the Arab Palestinians have some special and enforceable right to "take" sovereignty over the territory.

Romans were military occupiers of Jews’ homeland, which Romans called Judea, signifying land of the Jews. Roman historian Tacitus acknowledged Jews’ ancient homeland Judea with Jerusalem its Capital...

(COMMENT)

Nothing changes the fact that since the time of the Ottoman Empire, the contemporary Arab Palestinians can hardly identify any territory for which they actually maintained exclusive authority to govern itself. In fact, the Arab Higher Committee rejected the opportunities to establish self-governing institutions.

Like I said, history is all well and good. But it does not answer they basic claims the Arab Palestinians make.

Most Respectfully,
R

There was no place “palestine” in the Ottoman Empire, nor were there any people “palestinians.” Palestine was Britain’s name for the British Mandate, created after WW1 in the aftermath of the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Jews and other inhabitants of the Mandate were called palestinians by the British.

Of course none of that matters. International borders were defined by post WWI treaties. Those who lived inside those borders belonged there. Those who did not did not.

Of course, once lie is exposed you sing "none of that matters"...
But you still spread this lie knowingly and cover it with another.

The land allotted for Jewish re-constitution belongs to the entire Jewish community,
that living inside the borders and in diaspora. These are the treaties that became international law.

 

[rylah]

Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

 

[rylah]

The treatment of women. I'm not sure this came out of "western ideals" exactly but it came out of western countries. The entire women's movement for equality, the right to vote, the right to independently seek employment, to govern came out of Europe/America. I can't find any ancient societies that even come close to that.

Interesting, I've just Rambam's ruling to allow a woman teach in an academy where her husband studied, as post factum, after she's been already working there for years in his absence. Not sure this was in a western country or product of the Enlightenment.

And not exactly equality, as in women being valued like men,
but that didn't refrain Wuhsha from becoming a banker, or Rashi's daughter from wearing Tefilin, ruling and advising on Halachic questions and teaching as other women in Jewish history, along female prophets and judges. I'm not saying the Enlightenment didn't influence the Jewish people, I'm just saying that it had more of its own cultural origins,that allowed a woman become a state leader, prior to US (arguably the poster-child of enlightenment), rather than ideals of western modernism.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

I don't know about those of you who live outside reality.

The territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, west of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers, as well as the Dead Sea, has (currently) - area demarcations that include:

◈ Gaza Strip​

✦ Safe Passage Routes​

✦ Maritime Activity Zone​

✦ Maritime Trafic Blockade​

◈ Jerusalem​

✦ East​

✦ West​

◈ West Bank​

✦ Area "A"​

✦ Area "B"​

✦ Area "C"​

If I'm getting too complicated for you, just let me know.

Why do you keep mentioning Jordan. Jordan is a foreign country. It has no say about Palestinian land or borders.

(COMMENT)

Jordan has a Treaty with Israel. Without prejudice to the status of the West Bank, the border between the two countries encapsulates the West Bank.

I don't know why they should be confused. Palestine has never been partitioned. You would think they would know that.

(COMMENT)

See the answer to the first issue here.

Most Respectfully,
R

If I'm getting too complicated for you, just let me know.

Not complicated, just irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with borders. This doesn't have anything to do with my post.

Britain established borders of “palestine“ in the British Mandate, named “palestine” by Britain, which ceased to exist with Israeli statehood. “Palestinian Charter” gives authority to Britain for borders.

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As prominent Arab historian George Antonius notes in his classic book, ”Arab Awakening,” palestine was merely the name of the British Mandate, split off from what Arabs historically viewed as Syria or Sham in Arabic...