Shusha
Gold Member
- Dec 14, 2015
- 13,170
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Yes. I agree. And I think that is one of the most important pieces of the indigenous designation. At the heart of it, the importance of indigeneity is the preservation of a culture.
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The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
- Thread starter Coyote
- Start date
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Yes. I agree. And I think that is one of the most important pieces of the indigenous designation. At the heart of it, the importance of indigeneity is the preservation of a culture.
- Thread starter
- Moderator
- #2,862
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Shusha
Gold Member
- Dec 14, 2015
- 13,170
- 2,237
- 290
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Yes. And I agree with you on this point. I don't think that Arab Palestinians should be labelled "foreign invaders", although I think its fair to note that the culture is an invading and conquesting culture, which overran the existing culture, and, if I was being honest, I believe this is largely the continued intent of a good portion of the Arab Palestinians.
So, we are discussing, really, three different things here:
1. Individuals (who we agree should not be called "foreign invaders")
2. Competing indigenous and invading cultures. (As distinct from individuals).
3. The commitment of each culture to the preservation of the other culture.
- Thread starter
- Moderator
- #2,864
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Yes. And I agree with you on this point. I don't think that Arab Palestinians should be labelled "foreign invaders", although I think its fair to note that the culture is an invading and conquesting culture, which overran the existing culture, and, if I was being honest, I believe this is largely the continued intent of a good portion of the Arab Palestinians.
So, we are discussing, really, three different things here:
1. Individuals (who we agree should not be called "foreign invaders")
2. Competing indigenous and invading cultures. (As distinct from individuals).
3. The commitment of each culture to the preservation of the other culture.
Yes, that is a good way of structuring it
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Wikipedia? Not very scholarly.
- Thread starter
- Moderator
- #2,866
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Wikipedia? Not very scholary.
They source and given you provide zero resources...you don't have much room to complain.
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
Shusha
Gold Member
- Dec 14, 2015
- 13,170
- 2,237
- 290
Coyote
I don't believe you and I are disagreeing about individuals. We both agree that individuals shouldn't be insulted, targeted or discriminated against. And that people migrate. And its fine.
I also think we would agree that, as example, a family which immigrated from elsewhere in the 1930s (or 1890s or 1970s or 2010s) to the territory in question, which happens to be Arab is no more and no less (depending on your POV) a "foreign invader" than a Jewish family and that both should be treated the same.
I don't believe you and I are disagreeing about individuals. We both agree that individuals shouldn't be insulted, targeted or discriminated against. And that people migrate. And its fine.
I also think we would agree that, as example, a family which immigrated from elsewhere in the 1930s (or 1890s or 1970s or 2010s) to the territory in question, which happens to be Arab is no more and no less (depending on your POV) a "foreign invader" than a Jewish family and that both should be treated the same.
- Thread starter
- Moderator
- #2,869
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
Bernard Lewis is infinitely more authoritative than Wiki.
- Thread starter
- Moderator
- #2,871
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
Bernard Lewis is infinitely more authoritative than Wiki.
View attachment 339747View attachment 339748
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
Bernard Lewis is infinitely more authoritative than Wiki.
View attachment 339747View attachment 339748
Well here is what is interesting. You only posted a tiny bit of a quote from it. Which by the way is the same exact tiny bit of quote posted by a few others here...which makes me wonder if you just cut and pasted from some website. Did you actually read the book?
And, did you note the Wiki was not my only source?
I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
Bernard Lewis is infinitely more authoritative than Wiki.
View attachment 339747View attachment 339748I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
Bernard Lewis is infinitely more authoritative than Wiki.
View attachment 339747View attachment 339748
Well here is what is interesting. You only posted a tiny bit of a quote from it. Which by the way is the same exact tiny bit of quote posted by a few others here...which makes me wonder if you just cut and pasted from some website. Did you actually read the book?
And, did you note the Wiki was not my only source?
Page 13, “Arabs In History”: “During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
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I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
Bernard Lewis is infinitely more authoritative than Wiki.
View attachment 339747View attachment 339748I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).
The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.
The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.
Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.
Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.
Arabization - Wikipedia
Let me help you out. Bernard Lewis, author, “Arabs In History”:
“During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
I think you are more in need of help than I.
Wikipedia states:
Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب taʻrīb) is growing Arabic influence on non-Arab populations, causing a language shift by their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and their incorporation of the culture. Generally, elements of Arabian origin were combined in various forms with elements from conquered regions and ultimately denominated "Arab". Arabization also continued in modern times, most prominently being enforced by the Arab nationalist regimes of Iraq,[1] Syria, Sudan,[2] Mauritania, Algeria[2] and Libya and adoption of Arab identity and culture by non-Arab populations.
The Arabs are not a distinct ethnic group, since there are both white Arabs and black arabs. Some of the black Sudanese Arabs claim descent ln the male line from Arabs of Mohammed's time, and may well be correct in their claim. Nor is language a sufficient criterion of Arabness since there are many Arabic-speaking jews who are not normally called Arabs. The figure of a hundred million come from the populations of the states in the Arab League. For membership ln the Arab League the primary criterion appears to be language: but, despite the presence of Lebanon, which is half Christian, this tends to be coupled with the acceptance of Arab-Islamic culture.
Arab is an ethno-linguistic category, identifying people who speak the Arabic language as their mother tongue (or, in the case of immigrants, for example, whose parents or grandparents spoke Arabic as their native language). Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic. While Arabs speak the same language, there is enormous ethnic diversity among the spoken dialects.
There are 26 countries or territories in western Asia and Africa where Arabic is the official or one of the official languages of the state: Algeria, Bahrain, Chad (with French), Comoros (with French and Shikomor), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Eritrea (with Tigrignan), Iraq(with Kurdish), Israel (with Hebrew), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Western Sahara, and Yemen. Alternately, Arab typically applies to the 22 member states of the League of Arab States; these members include the above with exception of Chad, Eritrea, Israel, and the Western Sahara.
facts-about-arabs
"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; most are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.
If I were to believe you .... then all the people in Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen are descended from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula.
That's not believable.
Bernard Lewis is infinitely more authoritative than Wiki.
View attachment 339747View attachment 339748
Well here is what is interesting. You only posted a tiny bit of a quote from it. Which by the way is the same exact tiny bit of quote posted by a few others here...which makes me wonder if you just cut and pasted from some website. Did you actually read the book?
And, did you note the Wiki was not my only source?
Page 13, “Arabs In History”: “During the first period in Islamic history [622 AD] when Islam was an Arab religion and the Caliphate an Arab Kingdom, the term Arab came to be applied to those who spoke Arabic, were full members by descent of an Arab tribe, and who, either in person or through their ancestors, had originated in Arabia.”
So you are referring to what "Arab" meant in 622 AD? 1400 years ago? This would have been before the Arab conquests that mostly occurred between 632–732, after the death of Mohammed.
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My post was about immigration. In today's world there are virtually no countries who are 100% "indigenous." And it really doesn't matter.The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.
Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area
And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?
Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.
Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.
Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.
Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.
This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.
Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?
My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.
However, there is a big difference between Immigrants and settlers. That difference has nothing to do with religion.
Vagabond63
Gold Member
...They've forged a false identity, unknowingly adopting a Hebrew word that means - invaders.Probably because in Arabic it's "Filistin"" ... Traditional Arabic names do not include family names or surnames, but rather patronymics (nasab), where the ... Mai Al Balushi, Aisha Al Balushi; Al Filisṭīnī, related to or from the region of Palestine e.g. Abu Qatada al-Filistini.Arafat, father of “palestinian“ nationalism, was born and educated in Egypt. Common ”palestinian” surnames: al-Masri, “the Egyptian,” al-Iraqi, Maghrebi (North Africa), even Bushnaq (Bosnia). Funny how nobody is named al-Palestini.
Nisba (onomastics) - Wikipedia
Happy to help.
Fair enough, but doesn't the word "Hebrew" come from the ancient Egyptian term "Habiru" variously translated as "thug", "mercenary", "outlaw", "filthy", and other derogatory terms from other cultures in the region? Clearly ancient Hebrews were unpopular amongst the various peoples of the region.
Vagabond63
Gold Member
See post #2789 as it answers your question.Probably because in Arabic it's "Filistin"" ... Traditional Arabic names do not include family names or surnames, but rather patronymics (nasab), where the ... Mai Al Balushi, Aisha Al Balushi; Al Filisṭīnī, related to or from the region of Palestine e.g. Abu Qatada al-Filistini.Arafat, father of “palestinian“ nationalism, was born and educated in Egypt. Common ”palestinian” surnames: al-Masri, “the Egyptian,” al-Iraqi, Maghrebi (North Africa), even Bushnaq (Bosnia). Funny how nobody is named al-Palestini.
Nisba (onomastics) - Wikipedia
Happy to help.
Arabic surnames include locations.
Iraqi, Masri, Halabi, Hijazi.
Don't try to find explanations.
neither 'Palestine' can be pronounced
nor 'Fillastine' has any actual meaning in Arabic.
They've forged a false identity, unknowingly adopting a Hebrew word that means - invaders.
Common “palestinian” surname: Bushnaq, signifying Bosnia. How come nobody is named Palestini?
Vagabond63
Gold Member
Erm, everyone living in Palestine was called "Palestinian" at the time, regardless of religion or ethnicity, just like eveyone in India was called "Indian", we Brits like to lump people together under one label.This argument is repeated ad nauseam over and over and over and over. What's the point? Or maybe the real question is - WHY is it SO important for some to deny the existence of the other?
Jews were originally called “palestinians,” by the British, in the British Mandate. It’s a made-up word. Arabs later began using it, as anti-Israel propaganda.
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”
Vagabond63
Gold Member
All "identities" have been adopted for political reasons, since the mid 19th century.Point is, the “palestinian“ identity has been adopted for political, anti-Israel objectives.This argument is repeated ad nauseam over and over and over and over. What's the point? Or maybe the real question is - WHY is it SO important for some to deny the existence of the other?
Jews were originally called “palestinians,” by the British, in the British Mandate. It’s a made-up word. Arabs later began using it, as anti-Israel propaganda.
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”
Again. What's the point?
Why is it so important to deny another their identity?
Erm, everyone living in Palestine was called "Palestinian" at the time, regardless of religion or ethnicity, just like eveyone in India was called "Indian", we Brits like to lump people together under one label.This argument is repeated ad nauseam over and over and over and over. What's the point? Or maybe the real question is - WHY is it SO important for some to deny the existence of the other?
Jews were originally called “palestinians,” by the British, in the British Mandate. It’s a made-up word. Arabs later began using it, as anti-Israel propaganda.
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”
“Palestine” was Britain’s fictional name for the British Mandate, and the British identified inhabitants of British Mandatory “palestine” as “palestinians.” Those names are European inventions.
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Interesting....I did not know that. Missing the “informative“ choice. people were very tribal back then....They've forged a false identity, unknowingly adopting a Hebrew word that means - invaders.Probably because in Arabic it's "Filistin"" ... Traditional Arabic names do not include family names or surnames, but rather patronymics (nasab), where the ... Mai Al Balushi, Aisha Al Balushi; Al Filisṭīnī, related to or from the region of Palestine e.g. Abu Qatada al-Filistini.Arafat, father of “palestinian“ nationalism, was born and educated in Egypt. Common ”palestinian” surnames: al-Masri, “the Egyptian,” al-Iraqi, Maghrebi (North Africa), even Bushnaq (Bosnia). Funny how nobody is named al-Palestini.
Nisba (onomastics) - Wikipedia
Happy to help.
Fair enough, but doesn't the word "Hebrew" come from the ancient Egyptian term "Habiru" variously translated as "thug", "mercenary", "outlaw", "filthy", and other derogatory terms from other cultures in the region? Clearly ancient Hebrews were unpopular amongst the various peoples of the region.
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