The likelyness of God.

[Superlative]

God, or any intelligent decision-taking, calculating agent, would have to be highly improbable in the very same statistical sense as the entities he is supposed to explain.

How does one cope with the arguement that any God capable of designing a universe, carefully and foresightfully tuned to lead to our evolution,
must be a supremely complex and improbable entity who needs an even bigger explanation than the one he is supposed to provide?

Richard Dawkins.



I'm just curious as to how God's creation is explained by people of faith.

 

[90K]

I used to think it was but everytime someone tried to explain in a rational way it turns into a complete arguement over faith and facts. One thing for sure when we either leave this earth or the end of time I'm sure we'll get our answer.
Either we'll be completely in awe of the great Master of life as we knew it or we'll come backas mice, rats, dogs and cats...
I've come to the point where people don't really care about if God exist they aren't going to follow his ways because it is more fun to keep living the way we are. Kind of like the feel good theory: If it feels good do it I know I'm guilty of that way of living today.

 

[Vintij]

Well first of all, the bible is complete fiction. BUT! Science does have a definition of god but can not prove he exists without a unified theory of everything. God in reality is basically, the creator of the singularity....or the very first form of energy which after the big bang, split into the 4 forces we know today as electromagnetism, gravity, weak nuclear, and strong nuclear force. All forces in the universe are explained with these 4 forces but science has only tied together 3 forces mathmatically. Gravity on a small scale has not yet been tied into the "elegant universe" or the grand unified theory which would basically prove an intelligent design or at least, the very first godlike thought which prodoced the universe. Once we can prove a pattern with atoms (which at this point are very erratic and chaotic) we can prove an elegant design. Because atoms are the only thing we can not predict, and most scientists dont believe that god just rolled the dice to create the universe, they believe that everything has a pattern. Once that pattern is discoverd, God is discoverd. String theory is the closest we are to predicting the nature of subatomic particle.

Keep in mind, every bible on earth, is pure fiction. There is no proof that any event in the bibles literally happend. Ofcourse now-adays, religions try to take credit for scientific discoverys or at least align themselves with science and faith.

If you just believe in your own private god, with no organized religion, who never walked the earth and who will not disrupt free will, Then you are on the right path. Athiests take it a little too far because they cant explain who created the very first singularity. But thats all my opinion.

The evolution of all religions, have gotten so distant from thier true and original form, its not even worth it to get involved.

 

[Superlative]

My question is to everyone who believes in God and uses God as the answer for the creation of mankind.

'who or what created God?'

 

[90K]

That big bang came up short big time. it doesn't explain how our minds can except faith and how things can go well if we say followed the 10 commandments since those are fake? I have a hard time with this big bang deal. See when something goes big bang it gets flattened. hence I have worked with explosives for over twenty years and have seen a lot of shit get blown up. Besides craters I've never witnessed anything being created from one of our blast other than death, fire and a lot of clean up.

 

[Superlative]

See when something goes big bang it gets flattened. hence I have worked with explosives for over twenty years and have seen a lot of shit get blown up. Besides craters I've never witnessed anything being created from one of our blast other than death, fire and a lot of clean up.

You've done explosives testing in space?
where there is no gravity to flatten things.

 

[Vintij]

No believer will ever give you a straight answer, just letting you know.

Here is the answer you will get 99 out of 100 times

God has always existed and will always exist. No explanation, just what it says in the bible.

My opinion? God is outside the physical restrictions of the universe, therefore time does not apply. We have already proven that time stops in a black whole and at the speed of light, so that means time is not a factor outside of the universe, it is finite. Therefore nobody had to create god because god created time and in order to understand that, you must know a little bit about the theory of relativity.

My point is, god could have existed for 1 second, yet that one second to god is actually 13 billion light years for humans. Do you get it? Seconds, minutes, hours do not exist outside of the universe, therefore it IS possible the nobody created GOD because GOD could have literally created himself outside of the universe. Its hard to understand but we humans cant fathom a place where a past and future dont exist.

 

[90K]

You've done explosives testing in space?
where there is no gravity to flatten things.

No space just in the desert of nevada, and china lake. I don't agree on the big bang theory. My belief, ythings like this didn't just happen, it is very complex and way more complex than the average human could ever duplicate. I'm refering to the good and the bad in our world from floods to flowers in the field, trees pudding to fruit on the trees. Animals and what they do it is very interesting is all I can say.

 

[Superlative]

No believer will ever give you a straight answer, just letting you know.

you must know a little bit about the theory of relativity.....

....... therefore it IS possible the nobody created GOD because GOD could have literally created himself outside of the universe. Its hard to understand but we humans cant fathom a place where a past and future dont exist.

Knowing a bit about the theory of relativity would most likely mean one does not believe in the likelyness of God.


how can an entity, create it self?

It had to come into existance at some point and be created from or by something.

WHICH makes the likelyness of God creating the universe as unlikely as the creation of God himself/itself.

 

[Diuretic]

My question is to everyone who believes in God and uses God as the answer for the creation of mankind.

'who or what created God?'

You're asking for rationality now. The rational response is, "buggered if I know." But you won't get that from a believer. They don't like that question.

 

[Superlative]

You're asking for rationality now. The rational response is, "buggered if I know." But you won't get that from a believer. They don't like that question.

They dont like questions in general, it pokes hole (very big ones) in faith.

 

[90K]

No believer will ever give you a straight answer, just letting you know.

Here is the answer you will get 99 out of 100 times

God has always existed and will always exist. No explanation, just what it says in the bible.

My opinion? God is outside the physical restrictions of the universe, therefore time does not apply. We have already proven that time stops in a black whole and at the speed of light, so that means time is not a factor outside of the universe, it is finite. Therefore nobody had to create god because god created time and in order to understand that, you must know a little bit about the theory of relativity.

My point is, god could have existed for 1 second, yet that one second to god is actually 13 billion light years for humans. Do you get it? Seconds, minutes, hours do not exist outside of the universe, therefore it IS possible the nobody created GOD because GOD could have literally created himself outside of the universe. Its hard to understand but we humans cant fathom a place where a past and future dont exist.

You are implying the current standards of time and speed of light only apply in this world? Like our calendar, or clock. heck the sun dial could be wrong for all we know.
And going with the idear that time doesn't count. Why is itnot real?
I could be tricked into falling for your points, but I do agree in outside this universe time may not apply, but what says God doesn't? My mind is that powerful to answer itself? give me the warm fuzzy for doing what I believe is morally correct but the rest of the world doesn't except? what about will power? being inable to stop doing something harmful under the idear that I could stop when I want too? But I can't until I ask of help from God?


On a note I have taken issue with man and the church/religion and how fucked up people can be. Not with God and his plans for me as I understand them.

 

[Diuretic]

Knowing a bit about the theory of relativity would most likely mean one does not believe in the likelyness of God.


how can an entity, create it self?

It had to come into existance at some point and be created from or by something.

WHICH makes the likelyness of God creating the universe as unlikely as the creation of God himself/itself.

I have to make an admission here. I always think that we're limited - the point has been made already by posters in this thread, I'm late on scene - by our own inabilities and abilities. Aristotle told us to focus on what we could sense. But then we were still encouraged to muck about with that informed speculation called metaphysics. But even that tool is very limited.

We simply can't get out heads around certain things. We can't conceive of eternity, for example. We can't envisage the universe being unending. We live in a physical universe and we can only perceive a few dimensions. We might, as a species, be smart little buggers but we're extremely limited.

Some of us have sought comfort in the man-made idea of religion. Hey it's scary to lay on your back in a paddock at night and stare at the stars and wonder....Religion has all the answers. It's the Pepto-Bismol for the mind, it quells disturbances. Trouble is religion makes some people bloody smug and righteous and they fear and despise anyone who points out that Pepto-Bismol may quell but not resolve.

Anyway - we simply can't know. Our finest scientists might be able to crack the door open a bit and the rest of us are waiting for them to report back in terms we can understand, but we are simply too limited in our ability to truly understand.

 

[Diuretic]

They dont like questions in general, it pokes hole (very big ones) in faith.

It does indeed and given the speed of this thread I'm going to be lagging but the idea is being discussed I think.

 

[Superlative]

Anyway - we simply can't know. Our finest scientists might be able to crack the door open a bit and the rest of us are waiting for them to report back in terms we can understand, but we are simply too limited in our ability to truly understand.

I concur,
There is no telling what lies in the 85-90% of our brains we don't use, we could have unimaginable "powers" we have yet to tap, unfortunatly with our consumerist and religious society, learning and intelligence isnt really an important goal.

 

[90K]

so what is the answer to the religion question? Is it here to keep the man down? So humility is a bad thing?

 

[Superlative]

so what is the answer to the religion question? Is it here to keep the man down? So humility is a bad thing?

Unfortunatly religion perpetuates intself.

It would be nice to see it have less and less of a hold on society, as far as fanatics go.

reason and intelligence are far greater tools and influences and should more readily be exercised.

 

[Vintij]

Knowing a bit about the theory of relativity would most likely mean one does not believe in the likelyness of God.


how can an entity, create it self?

It had to come into existance at some point and be created from or by something.

WHICH makes the likelyness of God creating the universe as unlikely as the creation of God himself/itself.

Thats a good point, as well as other points made on this thread. The thing about science is we can only experiment with things of this universe, meaning we can go so far as to prove how the universe was created, but that is where everything stops. Because beyond that, time does not exist, and we all know humans are only products of the dimension of time. So we can predict just about anything that happens within the boundarys of time and the speed of light. Beyond that is basically philosophy. Unless we can legitimately predict and test something, we can not explain it. Therefore science sees god only as, the creator of the very dense, very small, singularity, which became unstable and then exploded, we can prove this because we know that the universe is expanding, and based on newtons laws of gravity, something must have caused this expansion.

Either way, We will never know who created god, or free will or intelligence, only that god is outside of the physical universe. A place where science and religion breaks down because nobody will ever know, "gods way" of living, one can only predict that if there is a god, he did not give us brains and intellect to waste on following one single book. One can predict that god gave us the power to think because he wants us to discover our potential before our star dies.

 

[Diuretic]

I concur,
There is no telling what lies in the 85-90% of our brains we don't use, we could have unimaginable "powers" we have yet to tap, unfortunatly with our consumerist and religious society, learning and intelligence isnt really an important goal.

I don't subscribe to that one. I think we use all of what we have. Our brains haven't changed that much in millions of years but what has changed is the amount we collectively know. Because we've had writing for thousands of years we've been able to collect and store the info and so we haven't - as individuals - had to re-learn it (Newton said it well in his remarks about standing on the shoulders of giants).

 

[Diuretic]

so what is the answer to the religion question? Is it here to keep the man down? So humility is a bad thing?

Yes it is. Humility is something which should be in response to something else, not as a constant part of anyone's lilfe. Self-abnegation, monasticism, all that cobblers is wrapped up. It's why I can see no point in zen.