The Conservative Schism

rtwngAvngr

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Old timey conservatives lookout for the interests of American People.

Neocons lookout for the interests of the degenerate New World Order that some world leaders and other interested parties are trying to create.

That's it.

Of course, the politcally corrected common discourse is that "populism" is ignorant and bad.

Of course, the neocons will say globalism and unrestrained trade EVEN WITH TOTALITARIANS is good for america. I disagree with them, though I am not a protectionist. I believe in limiting trade to countries with a decent freedom and human rights record.

Where do YOU stand and why?
 

dilloduck

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Old timey conservatives lookout for the interests of American People.

Neocons lookout for the interests of the degenerate New World Order that some world leaders and other interested parties are trying to create.

That's it.

Of course, the politcally corrected common discourse is that "populism" is ignorant and bad.

Of course, the neocons will say globalism and unrestrained trade EVEN WITH TOTALITARIANS is good for america. I disagree with them, though I am not a protectionist. I believe in limiting trade to countries with a decent freedom and human rights record.

Where do YOU stand and why?
I'm "old timey".:cof:
 
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rtwngAvngr

rtwngAvngr

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Another poignancy: We are the lynchpin in this whole plan. Its the threat of OUR military and economic might combined with promises to the leaders of other nations that they PERSONALLY will have a place in the new hierarchy of authority, that is allowing this to continue . The leaders of all nations are being convinced to turn on their own people in this elitist power grab.

We, The American People, are the only ones in a position to stop this madness.
 

The ClayTaurus

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Another poignancy: We are the lynchpin in this whole plan. Its the threat of OUR military and economic might combined with promises to the leaders of other nations that they PERSONALLY will have a place in the new hierarchy of authority, that is allowing this to continue . The leaders of all nations are being convinced to turn on their own people in this elitist power grab.

We, The American People, are the only ones in a position to stop this madness.
So what are you doing then? Telling us on a messageboard? What else?
 

musicman

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So what are you doing then? Telling us on a messageboard? What else?
Actually, I think that sounding the alarm in a public forum IS doing something. To generate discussion and stimulate ideas on a matter like this is a good thing - a textbook example of responsible citizenship - and a damn sight more helpful than shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "Hell with it. They're all corrupt. I'll show them - I just won't participate".

I was a little tyke when Eisenhower was president, so I can't say much about him, beyond what's already in the (revisionist) history books. But, I can tell you, from my personal observations, that the U.S. has had exactly ONE conservative president in my memory - Reagan - and he saved this republic. To all you young scoffers out there, I can only offer that you had to have been there.

The Republican Party is in the final stages of a decades-long battle for its soul. There are two sides in this struggle; to my mind, they are the Goldwater Conservatives vs. the Rockefeller Wing. Circumstances change, and terminology with them (I remember, for example, when the working definition of a "neocon" was "a liberal who got mugged"; that has now changed). I think a fair, modern set of names might be "Constructionist Conservatives" vs. "Globalist Neocons".

And, I believe that now - in the fullness of times- the Conservatives understand what it is that makes our sovereign nation unique - beautiful - a true "shining city on a hill". It is our Constitution, for which so many have fought, bled, and died. It is our way of life.

Further, I believe that now - likewise in the fullness of times - Neocons see only the "golden eggs" - the fruits of ultimate sacrifice. They respect only the apparent success - that which they can see, smell, drool over, and count - without regard to the diligence, devotion, and committment of mind, body, and soul that made it all happen. In short, they would fuck over this nation in a heartbeat in their blind allegiance to the dollar, and never miss a wink of sleep.

Thoughts?
 

dmp

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Did you guys know the "Wizard of Oz" is HIGHLY symbolic of "Populism"? It's true. :)
 

musicman

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Did you guys know the "Wizard of Oz" is HIGHLY symbolic of "Populism"? It's true. :)
Interesting, dmp. Would this have - primarily - to do with the Wizard's observations on society, as he is handing out the watch, medal, and diploma? Rather searing indictments of man's pomposity - and general inaccuracy - in his perceptions of things like compassion, courage, and intelligence, as I recall.
 

The ClayTaurus

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Actually, I think that sounding the alarm in a public forum IS doing something. To generate discussion and stimulate ideas on a matter like this is a good thing - a textbook example of responsible citizenship - and a damn sight more helpful than shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "Hell with it. They're all corrupt. I'll show them - I just won't participate".

I was a little tyke when Eisenhower was president, so I can't say much about him, beyond what's already in the (revisionist) history books. But, I can tell you, from my personal observations, that the U.S. has had exactly ONE conservative president in my memory - Reagan - and he saved this republic. To all you young scoffers out there, I can only offer that you had to have been there.

The Republican Party is in the final stages of a decades-long battle for its soul. There are two sides in this struggle; to my mind, they are the Goldwater Conservatives vs. the Rockefeller Wing. Circumstances change, and terminology with them (I remember, for example, when the working definition of a "neocon" was "a liberal who got mugged"; that has now changed). I think a fair, modern set of names might be "Constructionist Conservatives" vs. "Globalist Neocons".

And, I believe that now - in the fullness of times- the Conservatives understand what it is that makes our sovereign nation unique - beautiful - a true "shining city on a hill". It is our Constitution, for which so many have fought, bled, and died. It is our way of life.

Further, I believe that now - likewise in the fullness of times - Neocons see only the "golden eggs" - the fruits of ultimate sacrifice. They respect only the apparent success - that which they can see, smell, drool over, and count - without regard to the diligence, devotion, and committment of mind, body, and soul that made it all happen. In short, they would fuck over this nation in a heartbeat in their blind allegiance to the dollar, and never miss a wink of sleep.

Thoughts?
Thoughts? My thoughts are the 2 party system in this country blows. The entire process is direct result of the political apathy of so many in this country. Am I patriotic? Absolutely. Would I like to see more unity in the world? Absolutely. Do I think the two are mutually exclusive? No.

I'm sure there is common ground that RWA and I agree on, but the histrionics and everyone-but-the-Christian-white-man is to blame rants are tiring on the ears. The xenophobia that is so lightly masked is a disgusting trait, in my eyes.

Ultimately, the wellfare of this nation depends on what you want. If you want the 1950's with picket fences and casseroles in the oven or you want urban areas with cultural influences from all over the globe. Or a combination.

I tend to be more of a cultural appreciator, but I place high value on assimilation. Hold on to (and teach me about) your roots, but embrace (and be willing to let me teach you about) America's.

That's a start, at least. Thoughts on my thoughts?
 

dmp

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Interesting, dmp. Would this have - primarily - to do with the Wizard's observations on society, as he is handing out the watch, medal, and diploma? Rather searing indictments of man's pomposity - and general inaccuracy - in his perceptions of things like compassion, courage, and intelligence, as I recall.
I'll have to do some remembering - my 10th Grade SocialStudies teacher put us through a SEMESTER of study of the film. lol :)
 

musicman

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Thoughts? My thoughts are the 2 party system in this country blows. The entire process is direct result of the political apathy of so many in this country. Am I patriotic? Absolutely. Would I like to see more unity in the world? Absolutely. Do I think the two are mutually exclusive? No.

I'm sure there is common ground that RWA and I agree on, but the histrionics and everyone-but-the-Christian-white-man is to blame rants are tiring on the ears. The xenophobia that is so lightly masked is a disgusting trait, in my eyes.

Ultimately, the wellfare of this nation depends on what you want. If you want the 1950's with picket fences and casseroles in the oven or you want urban areas with cultural influences from all over the globe. Or a combination.

I tend to be more of a cultural appreciator, but I place high value on assimilation. Hold on to (and teach me about) your roots, but embrace (and be willing to let me teach you about) America's.

That's a start, at least. Thoughts on my thoughts?
Can't see anything unreasonable in your post at all. You'll concede, though - won't you - that the "everyone but the Christian white man is a victim" rants can get equally grating?
 

The ClayTaurus

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Can't see anything unreasonable in your post at all. You'll concede, though - won't you - that the "everyone but the Christian white man is a victim" rants can get equally grating?
Not only would I concede, I would offer it up!
 

musicman

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I'll have to do some remembering - my 10th Grade SocialStudies teacher put us through a SEMESTER of study of the film. lol :)
I'll bet it was worthwhile, too - that was quite a flick.

Did you ever try the "Dark Side of the Moon" thing? I've never had the means, myself. Looks like timing would be a crucial issue. But I'm sure curious about it.
 

dilloduck

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Populism=== a movement for the masses, the "little guy" whose interests have been compromised by those who have APPARENT power over them. The man behind the curtain, the witch who is vanquished by a simple shower ?
 

musicman

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Populism=== a movement for the masses, the "little guy" whose interests have been compromised by those who have APPARENT power over them. The man behind the curtain, the witch who is vanquished by a simple shower ?
Well stated, dillo - that's gotta be it. And the populist "meat" of the message would be the pathetically thin veneer of apparent power and control. It is all in our perceptions.

You're in the wrong business, hoss!
 

ScreamingEagle

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Actually, I think that sounding the alarm in a public forum IS doing something. To generate discussion and stimulate ideas on a matter like this is a good thing - a textbook example of responsible citizenship - and a damn sight more helpful than shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "Hell with it. They're all corrupt. I'll show them - I just won't participate".

I was a little tyke when Eisenhower was president, so I can't say much about him, beyond what's already in the (revisionist) history books. But, I can tell you, from my personal observations, that the U.S. has had exactly ONE conservative president in my memory - Reagan - and he saved this republic. To all you young scoffers out there, I can only offer that you had to have been there.

The Republican Party is in the final stages of a decades-long battle for its soul. There are two sides in this struggle; to my mind, they are the Goldwater Conservatives vs. the Rockefeller Wing. Circumstances change, and terminology with them (I remember, for example, when the working definition of a "neocon" was "a liberal who got mugged"; that has now changed). I think a fair, modern set of names might be "Constructionist Conservatives" vs. "Globalist Neocons".

And, I believe that now - in the fullness of times- the Conservatives understand what it is that makes our sovereign nation unique - beautiful - a true "shining city on a hill". It is our Constitution, for which so many have fought, bled, and died. It is our way of life.

Further, I believe that now - likewise in the fullness of times - Neocons see only the "golden eggs" - the fruits of ultimate sacrifice. They respect only the apparent success - that which they can see, smell, drool over, and count - without regard to the diligence, devotion, and committment of mind, body, and soul that made it all happen. In short, they would fuck over this nation in a heartbeat in their blind allegiance to the dollar, and never miss a wink of sleep.

Thoughts?
Agree with you about Reagan. It's time that true conservatives take back the Republican party. It seems that neocons and liberals have more in common than not.

Irving Kristol, known as the “godfather of neoconservatism,” famously defined neoconservatives as “liberals who have been mugged by reality.” That political mugging occurred in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s with the rise of the counterculture, the anti-war movement, and progressive New Politics of the Democratic Party.

Former Trotskyite militants and Cold War liberals like Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, and Midge Decter switched their loyalties to the Republican Party. The “reality” that mugged the neocons was the progressive turn in the Democratic Party led by such figures as Jesse Jackson, Bella Abzug, George McGovern, and Jimmy Carter. In contrast, the neoconservatives found the militant anticommunism and social conservatism of the Ronald Reagan faction in the Republican Party invigorating. In the neocon lexicon, liberalism became synonymous with secularism, women’s liberation, anti-Americanism, and appeasement.

Over the past quarter century, the neocons have sought, with increasing success, to rid the Republican Party of its isolationists, its anti-imperialists, and its realists. The younger neocons, such as William Kristol (son of Irving) and Elliott Abrams (son-in-law of Norman Podhoretz and Midge Decter), have promoted a new right-wing internationalism that holds that America should be both a global cop and a global missionary for freedom.

Traditional conservatives and Republican Party realists say that the neocons’ foreign policy agenda is, respectively, neo-imperialist and unrealistic about the capacity of United States military power to remake the world. Apart from their militarist friends in the Pentagon and defense industries, the neocons are finding that their closest ideological allies are the internationalists in the liberal camp. Having recuperated from their mugging, the neocons are now reaching out to liberals who share their idealism about America’s global mission. To the delight of the neocons at P.N.A.C. and A.E.I., an influential group of liberal hawks share their vision of a United States grand strategy that will create a world order based on United States military supremacy and America’s presumed moral superiority.

http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/2030.cfm
 

JeffWartman

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Agree with you about Reagan. It's time that true conservatives take back the Republican party. It seems that neocons and liberals have more in common than not.
No doubt about that. It's no coincidence that the Neoconservative movement was founded by admirers of Leon Trotsky. The Neocon movement has it's basis in Liberalism.

Barry Goldwater is probably turning in his grave due to the domestic agenda of the current Neocon GOP.
 

Hamiltonian

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No doubt about that. It's no coincidence that the Neoconservative movement was founded by admirers of Leon Trotsky. The Neocon movement has it's basis in Liberalism.

Barry Goldwater is probably turning in his grave due to the domestic agenda of the current Neocon GOP.
It's also no coincedence that many Neocons were first Communists.

I'm an old time person too. Free trade is good from an economics standpoint, but we shouldn't be rewarding those countries we don't support by giving them free access to our market and goods.
 

Avatar4321

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Problem is there is no conservative schism. we are pretty dang united
 

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