Take That!

[Zhukov]

60 years ago today the Empire of the Rising Sun reaped what it had sown.

 

[padisha emperor]

Your message seems to show you're very very proud of the extermination of 150,000 people by nuclear weapon.
Maybe a little more reserve and respect would be not bad.


(imagine an islamist website showing the WTC in flammes, and at the bottom the green flag of the Jihad, with the "take that" and the sentence "USA repead what they sown".
It would be provocation and you wouldn't accept it. SI act in the same way for the japanese casualties )

 

[dmp]

Your message seems to show you're very very proud of the extermination of 150,000 people by nuclear weapon.
Maybe a little more reserve and respect would be not bad.


(imagine an islamist website showing the WTC in flammes, and at the bottom the green flag of the Jihad, with the "take that" and the sentence "USA repead what they sown".
It would be provocation and you wouldn't accept it. SI act in the same way for the japanese casualties )

...except the japanese weren't 'innocent'.

(shrug).

The japanese were trying to take over the Pacific. They were an aggressive hostile nation, who attacked us w/o warning. We took it to them. We hit back, and because of those two bombs, likely SAVED twice the number who were killed.

 

[padisha emperor]

...except the japanese weren't 'innocent'.

(shrug).

The japanese were trying to take over the Pacific. They were an aggressive hostile nation, who attacked us w/o warning. We took it to them. We hit back, and because of those two bombs, likely SAVED twice the number who were killed.

I know that the 2 nuclear bombs saved a lot of US lives. When people see that more than 1200 US marines were killed in Betio, a small island of 3km², it would have been certain that the conqeust of the japanses archipel would have been really bloody...here we are ok.

But why do you speak of non-innocents ?
the inhabitants of these two cities were not criminal, they were civilians.
Like in Germany, where the civilian population suffered a lot - Dresden, Hamburg... - , the population of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't offense USA.

 

[dilloduck]

When a country declares war they must also be aware that it is putting it's civilians at risk. Many "civilians" killed in Nagasaki were building weapons.

 

[Zhukov]

Your message seems to show you're very very proud of the extermination of 150,000 people by nuclear weapon.

You're damn right I am.

imagine an islamist website showing the WTC in flammes, and at the bottom the green flag of the Jihad, with the "take that" and the sentence "USA repead what they sown".

The fact that you find them equivalent speaks volumes.

the population of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't offense USA.

And that's where you're wrong.

 

[padisha emperor]

dillo, they were building weapons because their country was at War.Like everywhere in every countries at war.

Zhukov : the Japanese armed forces offense USA at Pearl Harbor, and during the war. But the population, the civilian guys in the japanese metropolitan cities, didn't kill US soldiers, they maybe worked in some weapons factory, but it's a normal trhing in war time.

 

[dilloduck]

dillo, they were building weapons because their country was at War.Like everywhere in every countries at war.

Zhukov : the Japanese armed forces offense USA at Pearl Harbor, and during the war. But the population, the civilian guys in the japanese metropolitan cities, didn't kill US soldiers, they maybe worked in some weapons factory, but it's a normal trhing in war time.

It's also "normal" for civilians to be killed in war. It's an ugly business, PE.

 

[padisha emperor]

It's also "normal" for civilians to be killed in war. It's an ugly business, PE.

sure, but when you can avoid it and kill instead of these civilians military forces, it's better.

Don't say to me that the US HQ hadn't other ways, other targets for their nuke bombs...Like a concentration of armies, a military harbor, a concentration of weapons factory (like in Pennemünde for the IIIrd Reich )


In fact, I disagreed here in this thread with Zhukov's post, who appears as be proud of this nuke, and with a disrespectful way.


But if everybody say : "it's normal that in a war the civilians are killed", first : why an army ? if everybody is killed......
second : then, the Al Quaeda's terror attacks are "normal", they kill civilians durong their war.

but here, everybody is ok to say these attacks were awful.

so ?...

 

[dilloduck]

sure, but when you can avoid it and kill instead of these civilians military forces, it's better.

Don't say to me that the US HQ hadn't other ways, other targets for their nuke bombs...Like a concentration of armies, a military harbor, a concentration of weapons factory (like in Pennemünde for the IIIrd Reich )


In fact, I disagreed here in this thread with Zhukov's post, who appears as be proud of this nuke, and with a disrespectful way.


But if everybody say : "it's normal that in a war the civilians are killed", first : why an army ? if everybody is killed......
second : then, the Al Quaeda's terror attacks are "normal", they kill civilians durong their war.

but here, everybody is ok to say these attacks were awful.

so ?...

Nagasaki was the home of the Mitsubishi TORPEDO factory and the Japanese kept US soldiers in POW camps near major troop concentrations.

If enemies of the US are tired of seeing civilians killed they should think about not attacking us. Simple. The US targets military targets FIRST and ONLY us the Bombs because Japan refused to surrender when they were obviously defeated.

 

[Gunny]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate targets because of their industry/weapons-making capability. It supported the war. The civilians who worked within the industry supported the war. All are legitimate targets during a time of war.

The goal of war is to render the enemy incapable of waging war by whatever means necessary.

You also have to understand the Japanese mindset. They WOULD HAVE fought to the death rather than surrender. I reference the Battle of Okinawa as evidence to support that statement. They fought for every inch and to the man, and when finally cornered on the southern peninsula, opted to commit suicide rather than surrender.

The nuclear weapons used completely destroyed the Japanese will to fight, and saved an estimated 1M US lives.

 

[padisha emperor]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate targets because of their industry/weapons-making capability. It supported the war. The civilians who worked within the industry supported the war. All are legitimate targets during a time of war.

The goal of war is to render the enemy incapable of waging war by whatever means necessary.

You also have to understand the Japanese mindset. They WOULD HAVE fought to the death rather than surrender. I reference the Battle of Okinawa as evidence to support that statement. They fought for every inch and to the man, and when finally cornered on the southern peninsula, opted to commit suicide rather than surrender.

The nuclear weapons used completely destroyed the Japanese will to fight, and saved an estimated 1M US lives.

hzere I totally agree with you.

As I said, a simple look on the conquest of Pacific by the US Marines showed that a military conquest of Japan would have been a disaster for the number of US loses, and also japanese one.

but, i read an interesting article, an interview in fact, interview of Tsuyoshi Hasegawa.

he said some things about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
first : the famus ultimatum of Truman of July, the 26th...in fact, the order "use the bomb as soon it would be operational" is dated of the 25th...so Truman gave the order of the hiroshima's bombing one day BEFORE his ultimatum, when he asked the redition of Japan....a little disturbing, uh ?
So the ultimatum would have been done only to justificate " a posteriori" the launch of the nuke bomb on Hiroshima.

second interesting thing : Staline sweared to Truman at Potsdam that the USSr will declare war to Japan in middle August.

Staline wanted like in Europe, an area of occupation in Japan, particularly the islan of Hokkaido. Truman didn't wanted that. So, the bombing was also used to precede the soviets troops. With nuclear bombs, Japan surrenders quickly, and USSr gets nothing.

Thrid interesting thing : The second bomb on Nagasaki could have been avoid. For this man, it was useless. Explication :

the goal of Hiro-Hito and the military HQ at the head of the State was to keep the larger possible part of power.

And after august, the 9th, Nagasaki is not in the head of the "Teno" : we have all the texts from the Emperor's council's reunion.

From the 9th to the 15th - day of the capitulation - of august, there is NO reference to the second bomb on Nagasaki. NO mention !
the only things ni the mind of Hiro Hito and his staff, except keeping mower, was the advance of the sovietic armies.

So, maybe the Russians played a big role in the redition of Japan, in fact.
The military elite of Japan was ready to have ten other Hiroshima, if it did that they kept power.
They were ready to sacrifice thousands of people, with the fanatism of the population.






So, it was an interesting article.

This man can be wrong, but anyway, it gives things to a reflexion about this.

 

[GotZoom]

Let's don't forget a couple of points. We gave them, through diplomatic channels, plenty of warning and opportunity to surrender.

"It was to spare the Japanese people from utter destruction that the ultimatum of July 26 was issued at Potsdam. Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth."

They did not surrender, we dropped the bomb. Why Hiroshima?

"At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable industrial and military significance. Some military camps were located nearby such as the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was as a major supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was chosen as a target because it had not suffered damage from previous bombing raids, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. The city was mobilized for "all-out" war, with thousands of conscripted women, children and Koreans working in military offices, military factories and building demolition and with women and children training to resist any invading force."

Even after Hiroshima, the Japanese would not surrender. They actually didn't believe we had ONE bomb big enough to do the damage; they thought it was a series of bombs from many aircrafts that just happened to be concentrated in one area.

"After the realization that the destruction of Hiroshima was from a nuclear weapon, the civilian leadership gained more and more traction in its argument that Japan had to concede defeat and accept the terms of the Yalta Proclamation. However, even after the destruction of Nagasaki, the Emperor himself needed to intervene to end a deadlock in the cabinet.

According to some Japanese historians, Japanese civilian leaders who favored surrender saw their salvation in the atomic bombing. The Japanese military was steadfastly refusing to give up, so the peace faction seized on the bombing as a new argument to force surrender. Koichi Kido, one of Emperor Hirohito's closest advisors, stated: "We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb in our endeavor to end the war." Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief Cabinet secretary in 1945. called the bombing "a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan to end the war." According to these historians and others, the pro-peace civilian leadership was able to use the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to convince the military that no amount of courage, skill and fearless combat could help Japan against the power of atomic weapons. Akio Morita, founder of Sony and Japanese Naval officer during the war, also concludes that it was the atomic bomb and not conventional bombings from B-29s that convinced the Japanese military to agree to peace."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Prelude_to_the_bombings

Also, there were celebrations all through the Middle East after 9/11.

 

[dilloduck]

hzere I totally agree with you.

As I said, a simple look on the conquest of Pacific by the US Marines showed that a military conquest of Japan would have been a disaster for the number of US loses, and also japanese one.

but, i read an interesting article, an interview in fact, interview of Tsuyoshi Hasegawa.

he said some things about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
first : the famus ultimatum of Truman of July, the 26th...in fact, the order "use the bomb as soon it would be operational" is dated of the 25th...so Truman gave the order of the hiroshima's bombing one day BEFORE his ultimatum, when he asked the redition of Japan....a little disturbing, uh ?
So the ultimatum would have been done only to justificate " a posteriori" the launch of the nuke bomb on Hiroshima.

second interesting thing : Staline sweared to Truman at Potsdam that the USSr will declare war to Japan in middle August.

Staline wanted like in Europe, an area of occupation in Japan, particularly the islan of Hokkaido. Truman didn't wanted that. So, the bombing was also used to precede the soviets troops. With nuclear bombs, Japan surrenders quickly, and USSr gets nothing.

Thrid interesting thing : The second bomb on Nagasaki could have been avoid. For this man, it was useless. Explication :

the goal of Hiro-Hito and the military HQ at the head of the State was to keep the larger possible part of power.

And after august, the 9th, Nagasaki is not in the head of the "Teno" : we have all the texts from the Emperor's council's reunion.

From the 9th to the 15th - day of the capitulation - of august, there is NO reference to the second bomb on Nagasaki. NO mention !
the only things ni the mind of Hiro Hito and his staff, except keeping mower, was the advance of the sovietic armies.

So, maybe the Russians played a big role in the redition of Japan, in fact.
The military elite of Japan was ready to have ten other Hiroshima, if it did that they kept power.
They were ready to sacrifice thousands of people, with the fanatism of the population.






So, it was an interesting article.

This man can be wrong, but anyway, it gives things to a reflexion about this.

Second guessing decisions made in 1945 are interesting but moot. Japan chose to attack America and lost the war. The goal of war is to win. Rules of warfare has never made any sense to me. If I am going to defend myself, I will use ANY MEAN POSSIBLE to do so. If I choose to attack another, I will use any method to beat them. There's nothing as stupid as lawyers telling a general how to fight a war. All I can say is choose your leaders wisely.

 

[padisha emperor]

gotzoom, the ultimatum...Japan refused it. It took a bomb...but the order to send the bomb was given BEFORE the sending of ultimatum and then before the reception of the japanese answer. (one day before....)


Dillo, i understand you, in a war victory is the goal. if it's done with honour, it's far better. but it's victory anyway.

This article critisized the lies about therse bombs : Nagasaki could have been saved, because the Emperor and his staff didn't care about it....(so, no importance, not a factor in the reddition)


I read about hiroshima it was effectivly a major center for industry....Nagasaki was only in the third place on the "nuked cities"' list, but the bad weather on the second did that nagasaki "got the match"...

 

[dilloduck]

gotzoom, the ultimatum...Japan refused it. It took a bomb...but the order to send the bomb was given BEFORE the sending of ultimatum and then before the reception of the japanese answer. (one day before....)


Dillo, i understand you, in a war victory is the goal. if it's done with honour, it's far better. but it's victory anyway.

This article critisized the lies about therse bombs : Nagasaki could have been saved, because the Emperor and his staff didn't care about it....(so, no importance, not a factor in the reddition)


I read about hiroshima it was effectivly a major center for industry....Nagasaki was only in the third place on the "nuked cities"' list, but the bad weather on the second did that nagasaki "got the match"...

The US is consantly being second guessed about how it defends itself yet those that threaten it go unchallenged. Wanna see some WWII "abu garhibs" connocted by the enemies of America?? There IS NO morality to war. The only honor lies in the acts done to protect those on your side.

 

[GotZoom]

gotzoom, the ultimatum...Japan refused it. It took a bomb...but the order to send the bomb was given BEFORE the sending of ultimatum and then before the reception of the japanese answer. (one day before....)


Dillo, i understand you, in a war victory is the goal. if it's done with honour, it's far better. but it's victory anyway.

This article critisized the lies about therse bombs : Nagasaki could have been saved, because the Emperor and his staff didn't care about it....(so, no importance, not a factor in the reddition)


I read about hiroshima it was effectivly a major center for industry....Nagasaki was only in the third place on the "nuked cities"' list, but the bad weather on the second did that nagasaki "got the match"...

Right...they said no. We bombed.

And?

 

[padisha emperor]

Right...they said no. We bombed.

And?

and it appears that truman gave the order of the bombardement before the japanese answer. he didn't know what would be the Japan's answer, but he gave the order all the same.

 

[GotZoom]

and it appears that truman gave the order of the bombardement before the japanese answer. he didn't know what would be the Japan's answer, but he gave the order all the same.

We issued the ultimatum on July 26, and didn't bomb until August 9.

The Enola Gay took off at 8:15 the morning of the bombing.

Seems like enough time to give an answer.

 

[padisha emperor]

We issued the ultimatum on July 26, and didn't bomb until August 9.

The Enola Gay took off at 8:15 the morning of the bombing.

Seems like enough time to give an answer.

well, this guy in his interview meant :

Truman SENT the ultimatum july the 26th.
ok.

But july the 25th, so one day BEFORE, he gave the order "use the bomb as soon it would be operational". So he wanted all the same to use the bomb, even if he didn't know the japanese answer (he didn't know it because he didn't send it...it would be sent one day AFTER)

The order was given without care about the japanese answer, because it was given BEFORE the send of the ultimatum.