Stop pretending the U.S. is a democracy

Robert Urbanek

Platinum Member
Nov 9, 2019
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Vacaville, CA
While state and local governments have democratic processes, the national government is far from democratic: More than 300 million Americans have no effective power in Congress.

Most people understand that the electoral college is a farce, giving us two presidents in this century who took office despite losing the popular vote. Anywhere else on the globe, that result would be seen as a seizure of power by a dictator.

But less widely understood is that Congress is an even larger farce. The U.S. House of Representative can lay some claim to be a truly representative body if you discount the distortions of gerrymandering. But the Senate, where any legislation must also be approved, has no such pretense. Every state has the same power, regardless of population.

Thus, voters in Wyoming, the least populous state, with about 577,000 people, have the same political power as the voters in any of the more populous states. If you live in Texas or California, only the first 577,000 people have the same power as those in Wyoming; the rest have no effective representation. So, just do the math. Multiply 577,000 by 50 to give you the population truly represented in the Senate: 28,850,000. The remaining 302,600,000 people (U.S. population of 331,450,000 minus 28,850,000) have no effective voice in the Senate. And since the Senate can block any legislation sent up by the House, no effective power in the Senate equals no effective power in Congress.

Admittedly, legislation is often passed because the interests of the smaller states and the larger states are the same or the interests of both parties are the same. Or sometimes the senators from big states will bribe senators from little states with pork barrel projects to pass legislation. Or sometimes Congress will move on an issue because the alternative is revolution, such as with the Great Depression. But all in all, representation is a joke. And any claim that the U.S. is a democracy is also a joke.

Nor is the U.S. a genuine republic, as some conservatives will claim. Even in a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people, not by a process that distorts and seriously limits such representation.
 
While state and local governments have democratic processes, the national government is far from democratic: More than 300 million Americans have no effective power in Congress.

Most people understand that the electoral college is a farce, giving us two presidents in this century who took office despite losing the popular vote. Anywhere else on the globe, that result would be seen as a seizure of power by a dictator.

But less widely understood is that Congress is an even larger farce. The U.S. House of Representative can lay some claim to be a truly representative body if you discount the distortions of gerrymandering. But the Senate, where any legislation must also be approved, has no such pretense. Every state has the same power, regardless of population.

Thus, voters in Wyoming, the least populous state, with about 577,000 people, have the same political power as the voters in any of the more populous states. If you live in Texas or California, only the first 577,000 people have the same power as those in Wyoming; the rest have no effective representation. So, just do the math. Multiply 577,000 by 50 to give you the population truly represented in the Senate: 28,850,000. The remaining 302,600,000 people (U.S. population of 331,450,000 minus 28,850,000) have no effective voice in the Senate. And since the Senate can block any legislation sent up by the House, no effective power in the Senate equals no effective power in Congress.

Admittedly, legislation is often passed because the interests of the smaller states and the larger states are the same or the interests of both parties are the same. Or sometimes the senators from big states will bribe senators from little states with pork barrel projects to pass legislation. Or sometimes Congress will move on an issue because the alternative is revolution, such as with the Great Depression. But all in all, representation is a joke. And any claim that the U.S. is a democracy is also a joke.

Nor is the U.S. a genuine republic, as some conservatives will claim. Even in a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people, not by a process that distorts and seriously limits such representation.
In Canada we also elect leaders who didn't win the popular vote, including our current PM. It happens at times.
 
The senate was designed by the landowning, slave owning, aristocratic elite to protect them from losing the power their wealth gave them. It was purpose built to defeat democracy.
 
I 100% support the Electoral College.

Here is an idea, stop bitching and get it changed.

Good luck.
 
While state and local governments have democratic processes, the national government is far from democratic: More than 300 million Americans have no effective power in Congress.

Most people understand that the electoral college is a farce, giving us two presidents in this century who took office despite losing the popular vote. Anywhere else on the globe, that result would be seen as a seizure of power by a dictator.

But less widely understood is that Congress is an even larger farce. The U.S. House of Representative can lay some claim to be a truly representative body if you discount the distortions of gerrymandering. But the Senate, where any legislation must also be approved, has no such pretense. Every state has the same power, regardless of population.

Thus, voters in Wyoming, the least populous state, with about 577,000 people, have the same political power as the voters in any of the more populous states. If you live in Texas or California, only the first 577,000 people have the same power as those in Wyoming; the rest have no effective representation. So, just do the math. Multiply 577,000 by 50 to give you the population truly represented in the Senate: 28,850,000. The remaining 302,600,000 people (U.S. population of 331,450,000 minus 28,850,000) have no effective voice in the Senate. And since the Senate can block any legislation sent up by the House, no effective power in the Senate equals no effective power in Congress.

Admittedly, legislation is often passed because the interests of the smaller states and the larger states are the same or the interests of both parties are the same. Or sometimes the senators from big states will bribe senators from little states with pork barrel projects to pass legislation. Or sometimes Congress will move on an issue because the alternative is revolution, such as with the Great Depression. But all in all, representation is a joke. And any claim that the U.S. is a democracy is also a joke.

Nor is the U.S. a genuine republic, as some conservatives will claim. Even in a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people, not by a process that distorts and seriously limits such representation.

And, we do not want a democracy. At its base, pure democracy is evil and represses minorities, which is the lefts motive in these bs arguments anyway.
 
The United States is a Representative Republic.

The House of Representatives has representatives based on population of the states. As for your example - California has 52 members in the House of Representatives. Wyoming has 1.

The House of Representatives draft bills. (The more populated states have much more voting power) It then goes to the Senate to be voted on - which is like you say - more evenly distributed.

Then it goes to the president - who has the power to veto the bill.

The checks and balances of the US Government is among the best in the world.

- The more populated states have more voting power when it comes to the House and drafting/creating bills.
- All states have an equal say in whether or not a bill gets passed in the Senate
- The president has the final say with veto power

Now imagine you're the sole representative from Wyoming in the House. If you want to draft a bill that favors Wyoming, what are the chances it passes and/or even gets to the Senate?

Now if your a representative from California and want to draft a bill that favors California, you have a decent chance of it passing on to the Senate.


If we were to change it and have the Senate reflect the population of the states - the same way the House does, the lesser populated states would have next to zero voting power in both the House and Senate. Why is that an issue?

Imagine you live in Los Angeles, California. One of your biggest concerns is with the smog that affects the city. Your representative drafts a bill that gives tax credits for electric vehicles, solar powered roofs, etc. The bill easily passes both the House and the Senate since you have the vast majority of the votes in both. Everyone in LA is happy.

Now imagine you're a farmer in Wyoming. Your biggest concern is getting a sustainable water supply because there have been droughts in recent years. Your sole representative tries to draft a bill but since no one in the populated areas is concerned about water in Wyoming, it doesn't even pass the House.

Your representative eventually adds it to another bill that focuses on the needs of other rural states so that it can get to the Senate. Since the bill primarily focuses on the needs of the lesser populated states, it doesn't pass the Senate and the farmer in Wyoming does not get a sustainable water supply. If you're that farmer, how does getting a tax break on an EV help you when you don't even have water to sustain your farm?

That's just one example - there's hundreds more - and the moral of the story is that with a country as big and as diverse as the United States - you need to have every state represented. And what benefits and works for someone in California might not benefit and work for someone in Wyoming.
 
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This country would be further to the left without the electoral college. States like New york and Califorina would make LGBT rights the law of the land! ;) The fascist little hillbillie in South Dakota or Alabama wouldn't have any power. lol Also these big states would if you wanted to represented power by number would result in the same in the senate if you were to expand it by % of the population from the current limit of 2 per state. Totally fucking over the conservative states.
 
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If we truly were an democracy people like me would rule you.

If we were like Brition, Germany, Canada, etc the moderates would form the government. It sure as shit wouldn't be just a few dozen people within a parisan party that would do it. Which is why this nation is so fucked up! Look at the break down of the house! That would in fact be our parliament.
 
While state and local governments have democratic processes, the national government is far from democratic: More than 300 million Americans have no effective power in Congress.

Most people understand that the electoral college is a farce, giving us two presidents in this century who took office despite losing the popular vote. Anywhere else on the globe, that result would be seen as a seizure of power by a dictator.

But less widely understood is that Congress is an even larger farce. The U.S. House of Representative can lay some claim to be a truly representative body if you discount the distortions of gerrymandering. But the Senate, where any legislation must also be approved, has no such pretense. Every state has the same power, regardless of population.

Thus, voters in Wyoming, the least populous state, with about 577,000 people, have the same political power as the voters in any of the more populous states. If you live in Texas or California, only the first 577,000 people have the same power as those in Wyoming; the rest have no effective representation. So, just do the math. Multiply 577,000 by 50 to give you the population truly represented in the Senate: 28,850,000. The remaining 302,600,000 people (U.S. population of 331,450,000 minus 28,850,000) have no effective voice in the Senate. And since the Senate can block any legislation sent up by the House, no effective power in the Senate equals no effective power in Congress.

Admittedly, legislation is often passed because the interests of the smaller states and the larger states are the same or the interests of both parties are the same. Or sometimes the senators from big states will bribe senators from little states with pork barrel projects to pass legislation. Or sometimes Congress will move on an issue because the alternative is revolution, such as with the Great Depression. But all in all, representation is a joke. And any claim that the U.S. is a democracy is also a joke.

Nor is the U.S. a genuine republic, as some conservatives will claim. Even in a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people, not by a process that distorts and seriously limits such representation.

One could argue that any form of gov't where it's political leaders are freely elected by the governed is a form of democracy. The fact the an electoral college was formed and has resulted in 2 presidents winning election despite losing the popular vote does not mean that this country is not democratic. It maybe means that steps were taken to ensure smaller less populated states wanted to make sure they had a voice in the government, otherwise the country might be exclusively controlled by urban areas, and that ain't exactly democratic either. 50+1 might be purely democratic, but it's a shitty way to run a country. Telling the losing 49.9% to go fuck themselves could lead to problems.

To say that Wyoming voters have the same political power as any other state is of course nonsense, except in the Senate. Their vote is all but meaningless in the House of Reps and the presidential election; a couple of votes out of 538 isn't very powerful if you ask me.


Nor is the U.S. a genuine republic, as some conservatives will claim. Even in a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people, not by a process that distorts and seriously limits such representation.

Bullshit. In this country every federal law is absolutely made by elected representatives. The people and politics may change, but that does not negate the fact that we are a constitutional republic.
 
This country would be further to the left without the electoral college. States like New york and Califorina would make LGBT rights the law of the land! ;) The fascist little hillbillie in South Dakota or Alabama wouldn't have any power. lol Also these big states would if you wanted to represented power by number would result in the same in the senate if you were to expand it by % of the population from the current limit of 2 per state. Totally fucking over the conservative states.

Wrong, now the lgbtq are simply a necessary evil. If this were a true democracy, your itty bitty numbers would mean you’d be thrown under the bus.
 
The United States is a Representative Republic.

The House of Representatives has representatives based on population of the states. As for your example - California has 52 members in the House of Representatives. Wyoming has 1.

The House of Representatives draft bills. (The more populated states have much more voting power) It then goes to the Senate to be voted on - which is like you say - more evenly distributed.

Then it goes to the president - who has the power to veto the bill.

The checks and balances of the US Government is among the best in the world.

- The more populated states have more voting power when it comes to the House and drafting/creating bills.
- All states have an equal say in whether or not a bill gets passed in the Senate
- The president has the final say with veto power

Now imagine you're the sole representative from Wyoming in the House. If you want to draft a bill that favors Wyoming, what are the chances it passes and/or even gets to the Senate?

Now if your a representative from California and want to draft a bill that favors California, you have a decent chance of it passing on to the Senate.


If we were to change it and have the Senate reflect the population of the states - the same way the House does, the lesser populated states would have next to zero voting power in both the House and Senate. Why is that an issue?

Imagine you live in Los Angeles, California. One of your biggest concerns is with the smog that affects the city. Your representative drafts a bill that gives tax credits for electric vehicles, solar powered roofs, etc. The bill easily passes both the House and the Senate since you have the vast majority of the votes in both. Everyone in LA is happy.

Now imagine you're a farmer in Wyoming. Your biggest concern is getting a sustainable water supply because there have been droughts in recent years. Your sole representative tries to draft a bill but since no one in the populated areas is concerned about water in Wyoming, it doesn't even pass the House.

Your representative eventually adds it to another bill that focuses on the needs of other rural states so that it can get to the Senate. Since the bill primarily focuses on the needs of the lesser populated states, it doesn't pass the Senate and the farmer in Wyoming does not get a sustainable water supply. If you're that farmer, how does getting a tax break on an EV help you when you don't even have water to sustain your farm?

That's just one example - there's hundreds more - and the moral of the story is that with a country as big and as diverse as the United States - you need to have every state represented. And what benefits and works for someone in California might not benefit and work for someone in Wyoming.
The UK is a Representative Democracy and as you say, America is Representative Republic. But the tiny flaw in this is, how do these representatives represent the people?

So does the representative meet their electorate, gathers the consensus of opinion and goes to vote on laws etc.. based on this information? Or, does the representative go and vote in a way that they feel is in the best interests of their electorate?

I like Switzerland's system, where important issues are decided by the people in a legally binding referendum.
 
One could argue that any form of gov't where it's political leaders are freely elected by the governed is a form of democracy. The fact the an electoral college was formed and has resulted in 2 presidents winning election despite losing the popular vote does not mean that this country is not democratic. It maybe means that steps were taken to ensure smaller less populated states wanted to make sure they had a voice in the government, otherwise the country might be exclusively controlled by urban areas, and that ain't exactly democratic either. 50+1 might be purely democratic, but it's a shitty way to run a country. Telling the losing 49.9% to go fuck themselves could lead to problems.

To say that Wyoming voters have the same political power as any other state is of course nonsense, except in the Senate. Their vote is all but meaningless in the House of Reps and the presidential election; a couple of votes out of 538 isn't very powerful if you ask me.


Nor is the U.S. a genuine republic, as some conservatives will claim. Even in a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people, not by a process that distorts and seriously limits such representation.

Bullshit. In this country every federal law is absolutely made by elected representatives. The people and politics may change, but that does not negate the fact that we are a constitutional republic.
This post is completely correct, except for the first three words. It is not a "one could argue" issue; the definition of democracy is of a government in which the power to make change lies in the hands of the people (the demo is Greek for 'people'). It is in contrast to an autocracy, where the power lies in the hands of a single person (auto) or a theocracy, where it lies with the church (theo). That is literally what it means.
 
This post is completely correct, except for the first three words. It is not a "one could argue" issue; the definition of democracy is of a government in which the power to make change lies in the hands of the people (the demo is Greek for 'people'). It is in contrast to an autocracy, where the power lies in the hands of a single person (auto) or a theocracy, where it lies with the church (theo). That is literally what it means.
It is easy enough to say what the government of the United States is not, but no existing word adequately describes our distorted and convoluted system of representation and governance. I would suggest the U.S. is a republic of impediments: a form of government in which obstacles to equal representation and governance by the majority are ingrained in the system.
 
Most people understand that the electoral college is a farce
When I read your title, I thought you were sane. Of course it's not a democracy. Only Leftists think it is

Then I realized you think being a democracy is your goal.

Then you show your ignorance calling the electoral college a "farce." That's when I realized you have nothing to offer.
 
This country would be further to the left without the electoral college. States like New york and Califorina would make LGBT rights the law of the land! ;) The fascist little hillbillie in South Dakota or Alabama wouldn't have any power. lol Also these big states would if you wanted to represented power by number would result in the same in the senate if you were to expand it by % of the population from the current limit of 2 per state. Totally fucking over the conservative states.
Yeah, thank God we aren't ruled against the will of the vast majority by a couple off the rails states
.the Founders had the wisdom to limit the damage of authoritarian leftists.
 
When I read your title, I thought you were sane. Of course it's not a democracy. Only Leftists think it is

Then I realized you think being a democracy is your goal.

Then you show your ignorance calling the electoral college a "farce." That's when I realized you have nothing to offer.
So, only leftists like Ronald Reagan think America is a democracy?

This democracy of ours, which sometimes we've treated so lightly, is more than ever a comfortable cloak, so let us not tear it asunder, for no man knows, once it is destroyed, where or when he will find its protective warmth again. -- Ronald Reagan
 
No, we don't have a democracy, we have a fascist oligarchy. The people don't control the government, special interests do.
 

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