So, why do I find myself on the side of the Democrats, against many of the Republicans, and obama?

[kaz]

Still now seeing your explanation on how you know the field of economics is wrong, just you keep begging the question and assuming that it is because you said so. Well, lawyers did anyway

Economists said "this 'free trade' mumbo-jumbo will be great" and it turns out that things are not so great unless you have a lot of stock in a multinational. At this point I have zero faith in the predictive powers of anyone that calls themselves an economist. The numbers say they suck at predicting the future or coming up with ideas that do not screw the working class.

Who were you quoting? I don't believe any economist actually said they support mumbo-jumbo. Or do you just make up the quotes you wanted them to say? Do you even know what quote marks mean? You can start figuring that out by looking at the first of the two words in quote marks.

And free trade doesn't undo all the harm the rest of our belligerent, socialist government is doing. It's a net positive, you don't know what "net" positive means, do you?

I know you are trying to defend a profession with a terrible track record. It is also important to note that the very richest industrialists have endowed most of the elite economics schools in America with the proviso that the Chicago school theories be taught and favored, another good reason to suspect their every prediction.

Begging the question.

And manual labor jobs were already going offshore before NAFTA and I keep pointing out NAFTA is not the only thing that has happened to the economy in the last 20 years, government policies are actively driving jobs offshore and also you are directly contradicting the field of economics. That NAFTA hasn't fixed all that doesn't prove anything

I already said NAFTA was but part of a broad policy to cheapen American labor and undercut unions by making us compete directly with sweat shop laborers. Pay attention. I am attacking your entire Friedmanite economic belief system as a false gospel, not just NAFTA.

OK, so then you think the only thing that has happened in our economy is not just NAFTA, you think the only thing that has happened on our economy the last 20 years are free trade agreements. That's no better

 

[kaz]

China Trade Outsourcing and Jobs Alliance for American Manufacturing

China Trade, Outsourcing and Jobs
Growing U.S. trade deficit with China cost 3.2 million jobs between 2001 and 2013

2.4 million manufacturing jobs were lost due to trade with China between 2001 and 2013, accounting for 75 percent of all jobs lost to China.

Every state and congressional district but one has lost net job opportunities since China joined the World Trade Organization.

The trade deficit in the computer and electronic parts industry grew the most, resulting in more than 1.2 million jobs lost or displaced.

I agreed there are gains and losses, there are just more gains. Focusing only on one side doesn't contradict that

Ignoring the losses without showing the gains you say are there doesn't prove a damned thing.......................

Show these gains to counteract the losses.................that you say are there and DO IT IN THE LABOR MARKET ONLY.

Take an economics 101 class and ask the teacher to show you that. Seriously. I can't explain economics to you on a message board. But it's basic, first year questions you are asking me.

Again though, I cannot tell you which people because I don't know how people will spend the money they save. How can I possibly tell you which people?

Say I kill a sniper and you charge me with murder because I can't prove which person I saved?

Perhaps I need to write the equation in crayon for you...............

Show me examples in the LABOR MARKET of these GAINS YOU SAY ARE OCCURRING........................This isn't about where they spend their money it is ABOUT JOBS PERIOD................That is my argument........................You just bragged at the outsourcing of jobs by your own company......................

Perhaps I'll make it easy for you............can you at least tell me how many jobs you created in India...............................

That's the question and not the evasive answers you are giving me............

And the largest growth of jobs in this country is WHERE????????????????? GO.

The company was GE where I did the most offshoring. I don't even know how many jobs I created in India. There were probably 20 Indian Indians on my teams, but most of them were managers and project managers, they had organizations behind them. We agreed on the services they provided and we worked on the process. I saw some of the other people behind them, but not in a consistent way.

Offshoring doesn't just eliminate jobs, it changes processes. We were growing and it certainly prevented us from needing to hire more people, but no one was actually fired. Many of their jobs changed and the rest were deployed to other parts of IT.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I guess Free Trade is good if you look at these graphs as Ski Resorts and like to ski..........Great downhill slopes..............

Gov't selling their souls and our nation for personal gain............

When you look at the tidal wave of idiotic regulations coming out of DC, I mean, come on, the EPA is regulating CO2 as a pollutant, FFS, I'm shocked anyone still manufactures in the US.

 

[eagle1462010]

I guess Free Trade is good if you look at these graphs as Ski Resorts and like to ski..........Great downhill slopes..............

Gov't selling their souls and our nation for personal gain............

When you look at the tidal wave of idiotic regulations coming out of DC, I mean, come on, the EPA is regulating CO2 as a pollutant, FFS, I'm shocked anyone still manufactures in the US.

I understand that the thousands of regulations are driving companies offshore............I want an end to that as well.

But if China bans our products then they should get the same in return.

And tariffs, are sometimes necessary to even the playing field, with the catch that we can cut our own throats in the process................

We should negotiate on a country by country basis as we did before the Free Trade agreements................and not have to PETITION A FOREIGN ENTITY OF THE WTO for greivances with China................................

The purpose of the Gov't under the Constitution is to protect the United States from unfair trade practices both foreign and state to state and they have failed at that job, JUST AS THEY HAVE FAILED by ATTACKING BUSINESS HERE.

 

[eagle1462010]

WTO dispute settlement - the disputes - DS437



Summary of key findings

The dispute concerns several initiation decisions, as well as preliminary and final determinations in 17 countervailing duty investigations conducted by the United States' Department of Commerce (USDOC) from 2007 through 2012. The Chinese products concerned by these investigations consist of solar panels; wind towers; thermal paper; coated paper; tow behind lawn groomers; kitchen shelving; steel sinks; citric acid; magnesia carbon bricks; pressure pipe; line pipe; seamless pipe; steel cylinders; drill pipe; oil country tubular goods; wire strand; and aluminum extrusions.

Regarding China's claims made on an “as applied” basis, the Panel upheld China's claims against the USDOC's findings (i) that certain Chinese State-owned enterprises were public bodies within the meaning of Article 1.1(a)(1) of the SCM Agreement, capable of providing financial contributions; (ii) that alleged subsidies were regionally specific; and (iii) on the existence of financial contributions in light of export restraints maintained by China. The Panel partially rejected China's claims against the USDOC's findings that alleged subsidies were specific to certain enterprises. The Panel rejected China's claims against the USDOC's findings (i) that there was “market distortion” justifying the use of an out-of-country benchmark in the benefit calculation; (ii) that there was sufficient evidence of financial contributions by public bodies and of specificity to justify the initiation of countervailing duty investigations; and (iii) on the use of “adverse facts available”.

Regarding China's claims made on an “as such” basis, the Panel upheld China's claim challenging the USDOC's “rebuttable presumption” that majority State-owned enterprises are public bodies within the meaning of Article 1.1(a)(1) of the SCM Agreement, and thus capable of conferring a financial contribution.

As a consequence of the inconsistencies of the USDOC's actions with Articles 1, 2 and 11 of the SCM Agreement, the United States has acted inconsistently with Articles 10 and 32.1 of the SCM Agreement


China subsidized those products for sale here................and we challenged that ruling...............

The WTO said they had the right to do so....................and that we must accept these products via Free Trade..............which gives them an unfair advantage in the markets via subsidizing products for sale in the United States..............which in the end makes it harder for U.S. companies to compete..................

Subsidizing products is not uncommon in the world..............but doing it to drive other countries industry down is bs............

AS is their banning of AGRO business under the WTO.................

Why should they get a free pass, and why should we have to petition a foreign entity of the WTO for dispute management..................

That happens now because we signed those agreements.

 

[eagle1462010]

DECKER TRIPLETT China s poisonous exports - Washington Times

read for yourself...............examples of products from China that are BS forcing lawsuits on the sale of such items.............

CHEAPER ISN'T ALWAYS BETTER.

 

[occupied]

Economists said "this 'free trade' mumbo-jumbo will be great" and it turns out that things are not so great unless you have a lot of stock in a multinational. At this point I have zero faith in the predictive powers of anyone that calls themselves an economist. The numbers say they suck at predicting the future or coming up with ideas that do not screw the working class.

Who were you quoting? I don't believe any economist actually said they support mumbo-jumbo. Or do you just make up the quotes you wanted them to say? Do you even know what quote marks mean? You can start figuring that out by looking at the first of the two words in quote marks.

And free trade doesn't undo all the harm the rest of our belligerent, socialist government is doing. It's a net positive, you don't know what "net" positive means, do you?

I know you are trying to defend a profession with a terrible track record. It is also important to note that the very richest industrialists have endowed most of the elite economics schools in America with the proviso that the Chicago school theories be taught and favored, another good reason to suspect their every prediction.

Begging the question.

And manual labor jobs were already going offshore before NAFTA and I keep pointing out NAFTA is not the only thing that has happened to the economy in the last 20 years, government policies are actively driving jobs offshore and also you are directly contradicting the field of economics. That NAFTA hasn't fixed all that doesn't prove anything

I already said NAFTA was but part of a broad policy to cheapen American labor and undercut unions by making us compete directly with sweat shop laborers. Pay attention. I am attacking your entire Friedmanite economic belief system as a false gospel, not just NAFTA.

OK, so then you think the only thing that has happened in our economy is not just NAFTA, you think the only thing that has happened on our economy the last 20 years are free trade agreements. That's no better

You still don't get it. Read this slowly and ponder every word. Our trade policy has only enriched the already wealthy and done nothing positive for any American wage earner. All of your economic beliefs are the same dogmatic bullshit we have been hearing for decades. All of these "free trade" proponents' predictions of widespread prosperity have been either lies or total incompetence. Take your pick.

 

[eagle1462010]

Again, I will ask the question..............................Show examples of the JOBS CREATED via the LABOR FORCE

None have been provided yet.

 

[kaz]

Who were you quoting? I don't believe any economist actually said they support mumbo-jumbo. Or do you just make up the quotes you wanted them to say? Do you even know what quote marks mean? You can start figuring that out by looking at the first of the two words in quote marks.

And free trade doesn't undo all the harm the rest of our belligerent, socialist government is doing. It's a net positive, you don't know what "net" positive means, do you?

I know you are trying to defend a profession with a terrible track record. It is also important to note that the very richest industrialists have endowed most of the elite economics schools in America with the proviso that the Chicago school theories be taught and favored, another good reason to suspect their every prediction.

Begging the question.

And manual labor jobs were already going offshore before NAFTA and I keep pointing out NAFTA is not the only thing that has happened to the economy in the last 20 years, government policies are actively driving jobs offshore and also you are directly contradicting the field of economics. That NAFTA hasn't fixed all that doesn't prove anything

I already said NAFTA was but part of a broad policy to cheapen American labor and undercut unions by making us compete directly with sweat shop laborers. Pay attention. I am attacking your entire Friedmanite economic belief system as a false gospel, not just NAFTA.

OK, so then you think the only thing that has happened in our economy is not just NAFTA, you think the only thing that has happened on our economy the last 20 years are free trade agreements. That's no better

You still don't get it. Read this slowly and ponder every word. Our trade policy has only enriched the already wealthy and done nothing positive for any American wage earner. All of your economic beliefs are the same dogmatic bullshit we have been hearing for decades. All of these "free trade" proponents' predictions of widespread prosperity have been either lies or total incompetence. Take your pick.

You still don't get it. Read this slowly and ponder every word. How ... do ... you ... know ... the ... field ... of ... economics ... is ... wrong?

 

[eagle1462010]

The Art of saying Nothing at All....................

 

[PredFan]

Is there a conservative here who can tell this conservative why most in the right are for this thing?

Only the establishment Republicans are for it because their corporate backers want cheap workers.

Actually, much to my disappointment, Ted Cruz is also for it.

Great to hear that he's not living in paranoid fear like you the world is better than us and we'll fail and ironically you then support a policy of a government solution that leads to that you fear

What the fuck are you babbling about? Do you even know?

 

[PredFan]

Is there a conservative here who can tell this conservative why most in the right are for this thing?

That's easy: US corporations can make more money outsourcing jobs. That's what's important because corporations are people too.

Hey you illiterate nit wit, I asked conservatives. We've already heard this left wing nuttery this thread.

Dismissed.

 

[PredFan]

Is there a conservative here who can tell this conservative why most in the right are for this thing?

I'm against it, I don't understand why anyone could be for this.

In theory, and I'm guessing here because I don't really believe it, freeing up more trade increases commerce, which should add to our economy and prosperity. Again, theoretically, even if the actual manufacturing jobs go over seas, there is still sales, distribution, and support services needed. Not to mention the Nancy Pelosi theory of economics where anytime someone has money, they spend it and boost the economy.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

 

[eagle1462010]

oops.......it's been falling since just before 2000............

KAZ................Do you have 92 MILLION jobs for the people of age to work in the United States......or do they have to move with GE.........

 

[eagle1462010]

 

[OriginalShroom]

Considering how much of the "agreement" is still secret and we, the American people, are not allowed to know what is in it makes it untenable for me.

Once again the Democrats did the right thing, killed it, but for the wrong reasons.

 

[kaz]

oops.......it's been falling since just before 2000............

KAZ................Do you have 92 MILLION jobs for the people of age to work in the United States......or do they have to move with GE.........

Seriously, you think that we business people are going to do what politicians want us to instead of acting in our own interest? Some examples:

1) We are the only western power who taxes repatriated money, and government charge up to 35%. So what do we do? We don't repatriate money. In fact W got the rate lowered to 5% and government got way more money than it gets when the rate is 35%. Furthermore, companies like Burger King are moving offshore with that being the #1 reason.

2) Government only allows US flagged ships to sail directly between US ports, and it requires US flagged ships to be unionized. So what do companies do? Almost all ships are foreign flagged. The only US flagged ships are between Hawaiian islands where it's not feasible to go to Mexico and back. Even Disney is foreign flagged and stops at the Bahamas or somewhere on every cruise to avoid US law.

3) Companies above 50 full time employees are required to carry Obamacare. So what do businesses do? Take people to part time to skirt the rule as long as they can.

If GE followed your stupid rules, explain how we are better off with jobs when they go under and Siemans takes all their power business, Rolls Royce takes all their aircraft business, ...

Keep in mind in agreeing with Democrats, you are agreeing with authoritarian leftists who want overt government power. Doesn't that bother you? That or that the field of economics says in it's most basic, first year material that you are dead wrong? That doesn't phase you at all?

 

[eagle1462010]

oops.......it's been falling since just before 2000............

KAZ................Do you have 92 MILLION jobs for the people of age to work in the United States......or do they have to move with GE.........

Seriously, you think that we business people are going to do what politicians want us to instead of acting in our own interest? Some examples:

1) We are the only western power who taxes repatriated money, and government charge up to 35%. So what do we do? We don't repatriate money. In fact W got the rate lowered to 5% and government got way more money than it gets when the rate is 35%. Furthermore, companies like Burger King are moving offshore with that being the #1 reason.

2) Government only allows US flagged ships to sail directly between US ports, and it requires US flagged ships to be unionized. So what do companies do? Almost all ships are foreign flagged. The only US flagged ships are between Hawaiian islands where it's not feasible to go to Mexico and back. Even Disney is foreign flagged and stops at the Bahamas or somewhere on every cruise to avoid US law.

3) Companies above 50 full time employees are required to carry Obamacare. So what do businesses do? Take people to part time to skirt the rule as long as they can.

If GE followed your stupid rules, explain how we are better off with jobs when they go under and Siemans takes all their power business, Rolls Royce takes all their aircraft business, ...

You are again quoting regulations and taxes in an area I agree with...............Of course we need tax incentives and less regulations in this country to stop chasing companies out.......................................

My argument is that gains outweigh the costs and I'm saying that is BS...........

I'm also saying that having to go to a foreign entity to complain about trade from the United States to any other country is BS.

I'm also saying that leveling the playing field IF THEY WANT TO SELL GOODS HERE...............is not bad policy.........unless it is done to excess......................

There is no question that our gov't is led by a bunch of self serving ass hats.....................and promote legislation to line their own pockets......................and so outsourcing jobs doesn't matter to them as long as they make a buck.................They are whores in my opinion.............................

Again, show the GAINS that better the interest of this country under FREE TRADE WITH SPECIFIC EXAMPLES..................

You are dancing to tunes I already know and agree with here.....................but please don't tell me these Agreements aren't selling our sovereignty and people out...................

 

[PredFan]

Considering how much of the "agreement" is still secret and we, the American people, are not allowed to know what is in it makes it untenable for me.

Once again the Democrats did the right thing, killed it, but for the wrong reasons.

Let's see. That sounds familiar. "We have to pass it to know what's in it." Where have I heard that before?

 

[kaz]

Again, show the GAINS that better the interest of this country under FREE TRADE WITH SPECIFIC EXAMPLES..................

I cut the above, we agree on all that.

So on this question, let me start with you. Let's say because Ford builds cars in Mexico they save you $200 on your next car. What are you going to spend the $200 you saved on?

You are dancing to tunes I already know and agree with here.....................but please don't tell me these Agreements aren't selling our sovereignty and people out...................

These agreements aren't selling our sovereignty and people out.

The sovereignty one is bizarre, how is getting government more out of the way between Americans and foreigners impugning anyone's sovereignty? What do you even mean by that? I consider it an atrocity they are in my way to begin with.

And as for selling people out, again, that whole you are directly contradicting the whole field of economics thing just won't go away. Free trade made sense to me when I studied economics. And with my career in management, how much efficiency helps our companies compete and how that provides jobs it is further demonstrated to me. That you don't buy it just isn't convincing when all my experience says otherwise.

Also, as I said, free trade both ways is the ideal, but monetarily we are better off offering one way free trade. You can make other arguments for things like markets closed to us aren't fair or regarding the environment or morality like China using slave labor. But you can't make a $$ one, it's good for our economy