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Bull Ring Side Question B: What law requires any Business to file as a "Religious Organization" in order to express or advertise Beliefs

emilynghiem

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danielpalos
Asking help from TheProgressivePatriot and anyone else from previous threads with danielpalos
and me on the Accommodations laws vs. freedom of speech, expression and religion ON BUSINESS WEBSITES

danielpalos
Keeps bringing up the assumption that if a business is going to express or advertise beliefs on their website "they have to file as a Religious Organization" and cannot serve the general public or it violates Accommodations laws to discriminate based on religious beliefs.

I argue that businesses like Christian Bookstores can still advertise and provide only select "faith based" goods or services they advertise as in keeping with their beliefs, and they can operate in public and do NOT need to be a "Religious Organization" to express or advertise their beliefs and faith based services to the public.

I asked danielpalos
to cite either NY, CA or federal laws that require businesses to be or file as "religious organizations" in order to advertise they only carry "faith based" goods or services.

I tried to explain they are NOT discriminating against Customers, because ANY Customer (whether Christian or not, whether for or against LGBT, whether Atheist or Muslim or any or no affiliation) can purchase the same goods or services as limited to the selection the business provides to the public. The discrimination is against the TYPE of service, so all Customers are treated the same; but the business makes it clear they do NOT provide certain services or goods. (In the case of the Bookstore, they may advertise they only carry Christian books, movies and products. In the case of clinics or doctors, they may advertise they do not provide certain abortive drugs or procedures, or they may or may not provide certain types of LGBT counseling or transition procedures, etc.)

danielpalos
Makes 2 leaps in assumptions that I do not make
1. We already agreed that the first difference is equating discrimination against a "type of service" (in this case, advertising only traditional male/female wedding services but stating clearly the business does not provide "same sex" services against the owner beliefs) with "discriminating against certain Customers" (ie LGBT Customers).

2. The Question here is over why danielpalos insists that Businesses "must be Religious Organizations" and remain private in order to express or advertise faith based beliefs or services, when I do not know of any law requiring this.

Is there something different in CA state laws (or in NY) that we do not have in TX where I am?

danielpalos
Keeps citing "accommodations" laws but this case was about WEBSITE content and the Business being able to EXPRESS or ADVERTISE Beliefs.

I asked danielpalos:
How can Christian Bookstores advertise their faith based merchandise?
Are they required to file as Religious Organizations?
 

danielpalos

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You must have missed it the first time I posted it.

There is no appeal to ignorance of the law.

§2000a (a)All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin. 42 U.S.C.

That includes the seller unless operating on a religious not-for-profit basis.

Are religious entities covered by Title III of the ADA?​

No, religious entities are completely exempt from Title III of the ADA. All of their facilities, programs, and activities, whether they are religious or secular in nature, are exempt.
 
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emilynghiem

emilynghiem

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You must have missed it the first time I posted it.

There is no appeal to ignorance of the law.

§2000a (a)All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin. 42 U.S.C.

That includes the seller unless operating on a religious not-for-profit basis.

Are religious entities covered by Title III of the ADA?​

No, religious entities are completely exempt from Title III of the ADA. All of their facilities, programs, and activities, whether they are religious or secular in nature, are exempt.
We already agreed that you see refusing to provide "same sex services" is the same as "discriminating against the CUSTOMER" while I separate the TYPE of services provided as discriminating against those RITUALS (not the Customer).

That is the original argument that we are discussing on the other thread(s).

This thread B is specifically about your rule that Businesses "must file as Religious Organizations" before advertising their beliefs.

Please answer the question for thread B:

What law requires a business to file as a Religious Organization in order to advertise their beliefs on their company website?

Hints if this helps
A. Do Christian Bookstores have to be Religious Organizations to advertise they only sell faith based merchandise?
B. Didn't Hobby Lobby defend the rights of public businesses to exercise their own beliefs without being Religious Organizations?

TheProgressivePatriot and MadChemist can you help pick 3 judges to settle this or get danielpalos to answer Question B
 

danielpalos

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The seller is welcome to "discriminate" when operating on a non-profit Religious organization basis, just not on a for-profit basis since the bottom line is about Lucre not the public interest of the greater glory of our immortal souls.
 
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emilynghiem

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The seller is welcome to "discriminate" when operating on a non-profit Religious organization basis, just not on a for-profit basis since the bottom line is about Lucre not the public interest of the greater glory of our immortal souls.
You keep citing what Religious/nonprofits are required to do, but we don't disagree on rules for Religious/Nonprofits.

The question is where are you getting
the leap or requirement that a business needs to file as one?

I gave you an example: Christian Bookstores.

Can you show me where in the laws, either state or federal, a Christian Bookstore "has to file as a Religious Nonprofit and remain private."

Where is the business "required to file" as other than a business?

Pogo
rightwinger
Coyote
G.T.
@,
Lakhota
Kilroy2
colfax_m
Can anyone help us out?

I keep asking this more specific question but danielpalos keeps answering the same way and missing the question entirely.

Would it help to start with Religious Organizations?

Isn't the necessity of filing for one to receive tax deductible donations and to be exempted from property taxes for church property for the purpose of doing nonprofit charity outreach and education. If businesses WERE seeking either religious donations or religious tax breaks then they would need to be "Religious Nonprofits" in order to get the tax status, but this business is not seeking that, so it is not required to file for taxexempt status.

Where is danielpalos getting this idea that to select and advertise FAITH BASED goods and services like a Christian Bookstore does, that business "has to file as a Religious Nonprofit that operates in private" --> if Christian Bookstores AREN'T required to file as Religious Nonprofits and can operate in public and serve ALL customers equally (even though they "only advertise Christian merchandise" and can limit their products and services offered based on their beliefs).

danielpalos
Is this leap happening because you do not see the photographer having the same rights or practice as a Bookstore that can limit its services or goods provided and still serve ALL Customers the same?

Is it because you see Bookstores as limiting their inventory based on their faith based beliefs WITHOUT discriminating against Customers.
But when it comes to the Photographer not servicing "same sex" Weddings or Events, you see THAT as "discriminating against Customers not discriminating against Services".

Is that what is causing this conflict and why you cannot answer the question about Christian Bookstores?
 
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justinacolmena

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I argue that businesses like Christian Bookstores can still advertise and provide only select "faith based" goods or services they advertise as in keeping with their beliefs, and they can operate in public and do NOT need to be a "Religious Organization" to express or advertise their beliefs and faith based services to the public.
Sign on the front door says it's a "Christian" business -- why would they want to claim NOT to be religious?
 
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emilynghiem

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I argue that businesses like Christian Bookstores can still advertise and provide only select "faith based" goods or services they advertise as in keeping with their beliefs, and they can operate in public and do NOT need to be a "Religious Organization" to express or advertise their beliefs and faith based services to the public.
Sign on the front door says it's a "Christian" business -- why would they want to claim NOT to be religious?
They can still express their religious beliefs without being a "religious nonprofit that operates in private".

If the business wants to operate in public and pay taxes like a business, and NOT provide charity services for which "religious nonprofits" receive donations and taxbreaks, then the business would NOT FILE as a Religious Nonprofit.

Hobby Lobby went to court and won their case that the beliefs of the owners were still protected from govt regulations infringing WITHOUT being a quote "Religious Organization."

They successfully argued that the business owners retained rights NOT to be forced by Govt mandates to provide "insurance requiring certain abortifacient medications that violated the beliefs of the owners."

And this case caused an uproar among opponents who didn't see it as the individual business owners expressing or exercising religious beliefs, but saw it as Corporations having religious freedom that were not Religious organizations or churches.

So which way is it?

If danielpalos is saying businesses "have to be Religious Organizations" to defend the owners' beliefs
what about Hobby Lobby that is a public operating business?

What about Christian Bookstores that advertise Christian books as a public business not as Religious nonprofits?
 

danielpalos

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The seller is welcome to "discriminate" when operating on a non-profit Religious organization basis, just not on a for-profit basis since the bottom line is about Lucre not the public interest of the greater glory of our immortal souls.
You keep citing what Religious/nonprofits are required to do, but we don't disagree on rules for Religious/Nonprofits.

The question is where are you getting
the leap or requirement that a business needs to file as one?

I gave you an example: Christian Bookstores.

Can you show me where in the laws, either state or federal, a Christian Bookstore "has to file as a Religious Nonprofit and remain private."

Where is the business "required to file" as other than a business?

Pogo
rightwinger
Coyote
G.T.
@,
Lakhota
Kilroy2
colfax_m
Can anyone help us out?

I keep asking this more specific question but danielpalos keeps answering the same way and missing the question entirely.

Would it help to start with Religious Organizations?

Isn't the necessity of filing for one to receive tax deductible donations and to be exempted from property taxes for church property for the purpose of doing nonprofit charity outreach and education. If businesses WERE seeking either religious donations or religious tax breaks then they would need to be "Religious Nonprofits" in order to get the tax status, but this business is not seeking that, so it is not required to file for taxexempt status.

Where is danielpalos getting this idea that to select and advertise FAITH BASED goods and services like a Christian Bookstore does, that business "has to file as a Religious Nonprofit that operates in private" --> if Christian Bookstores AREN'T required to file as Religious Nonprofits and can operate in public and serve ALL customers equally (even though they "only advertise Christian merchandise" and can limit their products and services offered based on their beliefs).

danielpalos
Is this leap happening because you do not see the photographer having the same rights or practice as a Bookstore that can limit its services or goods provided and still serve ALL Customers the same?

Is it because you see Bookstores as limiting their inventory based on their faith based beliefs WITHOUT discriminating against Customers.
But when it comes to the Photographer not servicing "same sex" Weddings or Events, you see THAT as "discriminating against Customers not discriminating against Services".

Is that what is causing this conflict and why you cannot answer the question about Christian Bookstores?
There is no appeal to ignorance of the law.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17
 
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emilynghiem

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The seller is welcome to "discriminate" when operating on a non-profit Religious organization basis, just not on a for-profit basis since the bottom line is about Lucre not the public interest of the greater glory of our immortal souls.
You keep citing what Religious/nonprofits are required to do, but we don't disagree on rules for Religious/Nonprofits.

The question is where are you getting
the leap or requirement that a business needs to file as one?

I gave you an example: Christian Bookstores.

Can you show me where in the laws, either state or federal, a Christian Bookstore "has to file as a Religious Nonprofit and remain private."

Where is the business "required to file" as other than a business?

Pogo
rightwinger
Coyote
G.T.
@,
Lakhota
Kilroy2
colfax_m
Can anyone help us out?

I keep asking this more specific question but danielpalos keeps answering the same way and missing the question entirely.

Would it help to start with Religious Organizations?

Isn't the necessity of filing for one to receive tax deductible donations and to be exempted from property taxes for church property for the purpose of doing nonprofit charity outreach and education. If businesses WERE seeking either religious donations or religious tax breaks then they would need to be "Religious Nonprofits" in order to get the tax status, but this business is not seeking that, so it is not required to file for taxexempt status.

Where is danielpalos getting this idea that to select and advertise FAITH BASED goods and services like a Christian Bookstore does, that business "has to file as a Religious Nonprofit that operates in private" --> if Christian Bookstores AREN'T required to file as Religious Nonprofits and can operate in public and serve ALL customers equally (even though they "only advertise Christian merchandise" and can limit their products and services offered based on their beliefs).

danielpalos
Is this leap happening because you do not see the photographer having the same rights or practice as a Bookstore that can limit its services or goods provided and still serve ALL Customers the same?

Is it because you see Bookstores as limiting their inventory based on their faith based beliefs WITHOUT discriminating against Customers.
But when it comes to the Photographer not servicing "same sex" Weddings or Events, you see THAT as "discriminating against Customers not discriminating against Services".

Is that what is causing this conflict and why you cannot answer the question about Christian Bookstores?
There is no appeal to ignorance of the law.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17
The willful ignorance appears to be mutual danielpalos

I keep asking are you consistent in applying the same private vs public policy
to LGBT beliefs as Christian beliefs, and you keep applying a different
standard that Christian beliefs must follow while LGBT beliefs get a free pass.

I assume at this point you just have a bias you cannot help.
You remind me of Christian friends who believe their beliefs are universal truth,
and not a religious choice, so there is no separation from their beliefs and what should be public policy for everyone.

Both people for and against the climate change arguments defend their beliefs as truth,
and argue the other is pushing their own beliefs the public should be protected from.

Here is my new proposal you helped me come up with based on Public Accommodations:

Suppose we DO agree to require Businesses to file as Religious Businesses or Nonreligious.

danielpalos
I would be willing to offer this solutions provided that ALL corporations including POLITICAL PARTIES
agree to file as either NONRELIGIOUS, where by Public Accommodations, any policies lobbied or promoted
by these Parties do not violate, disparage, or discriminate against beliefs or creeds of other people, parties or groups;
or as Political RELIGIOUS Organizations that want to promote and advocate for beliefs or creeds biased against others,
in which case, as you insist, they only operate in private and do not effect public policy.
But like Religious Organizations, they remain private and do not mix with lobbying, legislation or govt policy.

Is that fair? To require this of ALL collective organizations
that file through States to operate as corporations, businesses, parties, etc.
 
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emilynghiem

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Why should anyone take secular and temporal bakers and photographers as any form of moral authority?
No this isn't requiring anyone to believe them as a moral policy.

This is just about letting individual business owners express and exercise their own personal beliefs.

Again I compared this with a Vegan restaurant owner who may preach on their website their own PERSONAL beliefs about saving the health of people and the planet. Just because they express and exercise their own personal beliefs, even using their business website, doesn't force anyone to see them as a moral authority.

We all have free choice to listen or not listen, agree or disagree, patronize or not patronize.

Nothing is making an LGBT person have to patronize, agree or submit to the beliefs of a business owner.

Only if that person refuses to serve a CUSTOMER through their business is that violating Public Accommodations.
If you are harassing or attacking specific Customers, that is harassment or defamation.

But if someone is refusing to serve "same sex rituals" to ANY CUSTOMERS who are all equally DENIED this kind of service and treated all the same by ALL being refused UNIFORMLY as store policy, then that is discrimination against TYPES of SERVICES not against Customers.

This is more like the difference between
1. Refusing all customers uniformly who refuse to wear masks, where all Customers are treated the same, and ALL CUSTOMERS are required to wear masks to be served at the store
Which is different from
2. Refusing customers based on their BELIEFS in not wearing masks

If a store advertises they believe in wearing masks and will not serve customers not wearing them,
Is this "discriminating against customers who don't believe in wearing masks"?

Those who don't want or don't believe in wearing masks can go to another store or business that shares their beliefs.

It does not make that business or owner a "moral authority."

We still have a choice to pick which businesses to patronize or not.
 

danielpalos

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No this isn't requiring anyone to believe them as a moral policy.

This is just about letting individual business owners express and exercise their own personal beliefs.
Operating on a for-profit basis in public accommodation means adhering to the laws regarding that privilege and immunity.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17
 
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emilynghiem

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No this isn't requiring anyone to believe them as a moral policy.

This is just about letting individual business owners express and exercise their own personal beliefs.
Operating on a for-profit basis in public accommodation means adhering to the laws regarding that privilege and immunity.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17
Yes danielpalos

So if you want children's clothes, go to a business that specializes in children's clothes.
Don't go to a store that sells or sews lingerie for women, then argue they are not accommodating you because they won't sell or sew you children's clothing.

If you want authentic Tacos, go to an authentic Mexican restaurant. Don't go to Taco Bell or Jack in the Box and complain they don't serve what you want.

You have a bias about LGBT.

You want this business to be forced to post photos of same sex couples and be forced to provide certain types of wedding services "that are the same to you" but are violations of religion to them.

You only recognize those beliefs as religious, but don't recognize LGBT beliefs as religious.

So if an LGBT business advertises it only supports counseling people to come out LGBT, but doesn't believe in spiritual healing for exgays, you would not consider that religious exclusion.

You would not require that business to post photos of exgays and to advertise spiritual healing to overcome unwanted homosexual attractions.

So your policy would also be biased and fail public accommodations.
 

danielpalos

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Your policy is even more biased. Why should anyone take a secular and temporal and for-profit baker or photographer seriously about morals and morality? Operating public accommodation is a legal privilege not a right.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17
 
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emilynghiem

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Dear danielpalos:

Candance Owens was denied service by a business, which is privately not publicly funded, where the business owner stated in an email that it was not fair to the providers who invested their own capital to serve someone like Owens on the basis of her beliefs and misinformation.

Should they mediate to resolve the misinformation?

Should Owens seek a different business provider that doesn't have a conflict in beliefs?

Should the business be required to file as a Religious Objector?

Should the business be compelled by Public Accommodations laws to include Owens regardless of her creed or behavioral actions or expressions?

=======

Is this a Public Accommodations issue? For a business open to serving the public to deny someone the services offered to others on the basis of creed? When businesses decline to engage in services involving SPEECH or Expression, they can refuse to publish or participate in certain messages against their beliefs. But cannot deny services to a PERSON based on that Person's beliefs or creed. Owens is NOT demanding that the service providers "participate in or express" Owens' beliefs. If she is expected to seek a different business provider, what about LGBT when they are seeking a business that provides same sex wedding services?


=======
 

justinacolmena

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@danielpalos
Keeps bringing up the assumption that if a business is going to express or advertise beliefs on their website "they have to file as a Religious Organization" and cannot serve the general public or it violates Accommodations laws to discriminate based on religious beliefs.
That's only for the non-profit 503(c) tax status where conservative political endorsements or affiliations are prohibited or something like that.
 

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