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Senate Democrats Block Proposal to Block Chinese Imports Made With Uighur Slave Labor

JoeB131

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Are you equating Casualties of War with Chinese internal domestic oppression and genocide based on ethnicity and religious confession?

If so, that's pretty damned disgusting, and excusing of cowardice in not standing against it.

Okay, let's compare.

We went to war with Iraq because Bush STRAIGHT UP FUCKING LIED about Saddam having weapons of mass destruction. Saddam wasn't making WMD's. He wasn't supporting Al Qaeda. He wasn't a radical Islamist. We went to war with him anyway. 650,000 Iraqis have died.

On the other hand, ETIM is a terrorist group, as designated by our own State Department.

No one has really proven that the Uyghurs are being subjected to "genocide". The Chinese have gotten fed up with them and their shit. Oh, well, sucks to be them.
 

Kondor3

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Okay, let's compare.

We went to war with Iraq because Bush STRAIGHT UP FUCKING LIED about Saddam having weapons of mass destruction. Saddam wasn't making WMD's. He wasn't supporting Al Qaeda. He wasn't a radical Islamist. We went to war with him anyway. 650,000 Iraqis have died.
Yep. It was NOT a "righteous" war (not that any-such thing truly exists).

But it was NOT a genocide.

Deaths were a result of outright war, NOT destroying a helpless population.

On the other hand, ETIM is a terrorist group, as designated by our own State Department.
Who gives a $hit? Designating a group as 'terrorists' - justly OR unjustly - does NOT equate to genocide.
No one has really proven that the Uyghurs are being subjected to "genocide". The Chinese have gotten fed up with them and their shit. Oh, well, sucks to be them.
Yeah... and nobody really proved that Jews were being slaughtered in German concentration camps WHILE the genocide was underway.
 

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Yep. It was NOT a "righteous" war (not that any-such thing truly exists).

But it was NOT a genocide.

Deaths were a result of outright war, NOT destroying a helpless population.

Who gives a $hit? Designating a group as 'terrorists' - justly OR unjustly - does NOT equate to genocide.

Yeah... and nobody really proved that Jews were being slaughtered in German concentration camps WHILE the genocide was underway.
My brain must be malfunctioning, I find myself agreeing with you more and more.

Genicide (like comparisons to Hitler) is way over and inaropriately used. Modern examples: Myanmar’s treatment of Rohinga, ISIS’s treatment of Yazidi.

Now the Uighur…JoeB is way off.

Who are they?
The Uyghurs (/ˈwiːɡʊərz/[23] WEE-goorz or /uːiˈɡʊərz/[note 2]), alternatively spelled Uighurs,[26] Uyghers,[27] Uygurs or Uigurs, are a Turkic ethnic group originating from and culturally affiliated with the general region of Central and East Asia. The Uyghurs are recognized as native[note 3] to the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Northwest China. They are one of China's 55 officially recognized ethnic minorities.[28] The Uyghurs are recognized by the Chinese government as a regional minority and the titular people of Xinjiang.


The Han Chinese invaded and conquered THEM….and, like with Tibet only with more brutality, they are attempting to eradicate them both culturely and physically. Considering China is systematically suppressing all negative information (like Tianemen Square) why would anything they claim?

Human rights groups believe China has detained more than one million Uyghurs against their will over the past few years in a large network of what the state calls "re-education camps", and sentenced hundreds of thousands to prison terms.

There is also evidence that Uyghurs are being used as forced labour and of women being forcibly sterilised. Some former camp detainees have also alleged they were tortured and sexually abused
.



The definition of genocide also includes attempts at cultural extermination. This most certainly fits the definition. It’s a pity though, that when Myanmar was conducting it’s genocide campaign against the Rohinga, there was comparatively little attention.little
 

Kondor3

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My brain must be malfunctioning, I find myself agreeing with you more and more.
My condolences... :badgrin: ...not to worry... I must simply be accidentally covering a bit of common ground...:omg:
Genicide (like comparisons to Hitler) is way over and inaropriately used. Modern examples: Myanmar’s treatment of Rohinga, ISIS’s treatment of Yazidi.

Now the Uighur…JoeB is way off.
Indeed...
 

JoeB131

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Yep. It was NOT a "righteous" war (not that any-such thing truly exists).

I would argue that WWII was a righteous war. We were attacked, we did what we had to defeat our enemies, and after the war, we rebuilt them and helped them create a better society. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to replicate that since.

But it was NOT a genocide.

Deaths were a result of outright war, NOT destroying a helpless population.

The most powerful military machine pummels an impoverished third world country, and they aren't helpless.

Who gives a $hit? Designating a group as 'terrorists' - justly OR unjustly - does NOT equate to genocide.
No, but what the Chinese are doing hardly qualifies as Genocide compared to what Hitler did to the Jews or we did to the Native Americans.

Yeah... and nobody really proved that Jews were being slaughtered in German concentration camps WHILE the genocide was underway.
Actually, the allies knew, they just didn't give a shit. I'm not sure if it was earlier in this thread, but I pointed out that General Patton kept the Jews in the Concentration camps and left the SS in charge of guarding them. (Part of the reason why he was sacked as Third Army commander.)

But aerial survelience identified the death camps and exactly what was going on there.

On the other hand, we have yet to see anyone show us this about the Uyghurs. Quite the contrary, Uyghurs have actually INCREASED Their numbers in China, from 10 million in 2010 to 12 million in 2021. There's no surveliance showing death camps or anything like that.

Now, are they dealing with them harshly? Um yea... I guess.

Not seeing how that's our problem.

Of course, we have far more
 

JoeB131

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Genicide (like comparisons to Hitler) is way over and inaropriately used. Modern examples: Myanmar’s treatment of Rohinga, ISIS’s treatment of Yazidi.

Now the Uighur…JoeB is way off.

No, I'm not, but let's move on.

The Han Chinese invaded and conquered THEM….and, like with Tibet only with more brutality, they are attempting to eradicate them both culturely and physically. Considering China is systematically suppressing all negative information (like Tianemen Square) why would anything they claim?

The Han make up 91% of the population of China. The Uyghurs make up less than 1%. And those numbers have remained relatively stable for the last 50 years. (In fact, the Han have decreased as a percentage of the population while the Uyghers have increased.

And yes, the Chinese did conquer them.... in 1765. Yet there are still Uyghurs left and amazingly, they haven't been wiped out.

What has changed in recent decades is the Uyghurs have thrown in with radical Islam and they are getting a case of whoop-ass for their troubles.

The ongoing Xinjiang conflict[92][93] includes the 2007 Xinjiang raid,[94] a thwarted 2008 suicide-bombing attempt on a China Southern Airlines flight,[95] the 2008 Kashgar attack which killed 16 police officers four days before the Beijing Olympics,[96][97] the August 2009 syringe attacks,[98] the 2011 Hotan attack,[99] the 2014 Kunming attack,[100] the April 2014 Ürümqi attack,[101] and the May 2014 Ürümqi attack.[102] Several of the attacks were orchestrated by the Turkistan Islamic Party (formerly the East Turkestan Islamic Movement), identified as a terrorist group by several entities (including Russia,[103] Turkey,[104][105] the United Kingdom,[106] the United States until October 2020,[107][108] and the United Nations).[109]


The definition of genocide also includes attempts at cultural extermination. This most certainly fits the definition. It’s a pity though, that when Myanmar was conducting it’s genocide campaign against the Rohinga, there was comparatively little attention.little

Except as stated above, the number of Uighurs has INCREASED in recent decades, not decreased.

Now not saying China isn't dealing with this group in a brutal way... But okay, we dealt pretty brutally with Afghanistan and Iraq, and Iraq didn't even do anything to merit it.

Unlike our usually stupidity of sticking our hands into hornets nests and complaining about getting Stung, China had nuclear stingers.

Why we go on and on about the Uyghurs or Tibet or Taiwan or Hong Kong, the Chinese themselves just see this as another attempt by the west to screw with their internal affairs.
 

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No, I'm not, but let's move on.



The Han make up 91% of the population of China. The Uyghurs make up less than 1%. And those numbers have remained relatively stable for the last 50 years. (In fact, the Han have decreased as a percentage of the population while the Uyghers have increased.

And yes, the Chinese did conquer them.... in 1765. Yet there are still Uyghurs left and amazingly, they haven't been wiped out.

What has changed in recent decades is the Uyghurs have thrown in with radical Islam and they are getting a case of whoop-ass for their troubles.

The ongoing Xinjiang conflict[92][93] includes the 2007 Xinjiang raid,[94] a thwarted 2008 suicide-bombing attempt on a China Southern Airlines flight,[95] the 2008 Kashgar attack which killed 16 police officers four days before the Beijing Olympics,[96][97] the August 2009 syringe attacks,[98] the 2011 Hotan attack,[99] the 2014 Kunming attack,[100] the April 2014 Ürümqi attack,[101] and the May 2014 Ürümqi attack.[102] Several of the attacks were orchestrated by the Turkistan Islamic Party (formerly the East Turkestan Islamic Movement), identified as a terrorist group by several entities (including Russia,[103] Turkey,[104][105] the United Kingdom,[106] the United States until October 2020,[107][108] and the United Nations).[109]




Except as stated above, the number of Uighurs has INCREASED in recent decades, not decreased.

Now not saying China isn't dealing with this group in a brutal way... But okay, we dealt pretty brutally with Afghanistan and Iraq, and Iraq didn't even do anything to merit it.

Unlike our usually stupidity of sticking our hands into hornets nests and complaining about getting Stung, China had nuclear stingers.

Why we go on and on about the Uyghurs or Tibet or Taiwan or Hong Kong, the Chinese themselves just see this as another attempt by the west to screw with their internal affairs.
There is a long history of Chinese persecution of the Uighurs.



In 1997, the government of Pakistan deported 14 Uyghurs accused by Beijing of being terrorists plotting to split Xinjiang, China's heavily Muslim western province, away from the rest of the country. Upon being driven across Pakistan's eastern border with China, they were summarily executed.

That case represents the first documented episode of Uyghurs being extradited at China's request, "marking a watershed in the evolution of Chinese transnational repression," according to the China's Transnational Repression of Uyghurs Dataset, a new database and report that was launched on June 24. It examines 1,546 cases of detention and deportation across 28 countries, from the 1997 incident until March 2021.

CHINA calls them terrorists….what is the truth and why should we turn a blind eye? A lot of authoritarian regimes are using claims of “terrorism” for brutal crackdowns.

In terms of Islam, tbey practice a very moderate form of Islam. China’s policy of brutal collective punishment and genocide is going to increase extremism.

You support the Palestinians against Israel, but you don’t support Israel’s right to react to terrorist threats. You don’t support the Uighurs, and you don’t seem to see a real problem with China’s actions. Two different standards?
 
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struth

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Sure here you go.


How about this, the United States designated the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (The main Uyghur political party) a terrorist organization.


In fact, 22 of the guys we held at Gitmo were in fact Uighurs.



Yes, the book with the giants and the talking snakes said so. The Jews who settled Palestine inthe 20th century came from Europe, buddy. You take a look at any prominent Israeli, you are going to find a parent born in Europe.



Except no one has proven that.... The camps, yes. We had camps too, under Trump, for people just seeking a better life. We have 2 million people in prison. Our cops regularly shoot people. We really don't have a lot of high ground to scream from.
geez what a racist comment…no not all muslims are terrorist

go sit in a cell with your hero Jussie
 

JoeB131

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You support the Palestinians against Israel, but you don’t support Israel’s right to react to terrorist threats. You don’t support the Uighurs, and you don’t seem to see a real problem with China’s actions. Two different standards?

Uh, yeah... the Zionists had to invade Palestine with British help. They weren't actually from there. More to the point, the Zionists are doing the shit they are doing on our dime, and we Americans pay the price when the rest of the Islamic World decides that killing Americans in retaliation is acceptable.

Also, the whole idea that some assholes can do whatever the fuck they want because God told them they could always, always, always rubs me the wrong way. The world will be so much better off when religion becomes a thing of the past.

The Uyghurs, on the other hand, have been under Chinese dominion pretty much since the Yuan Dynasty. Not our circus, not our monkeys.

In 1997, the government of Pakistan deported 14 Uyghurs accused by Beijing of being terrorists plotting to split Xinjiang, China's heavily Muslim western province, away from the rest of the country. Upon being driven across Pakistan's eastern border with China, they were summarily executed.

And why is that a bad thing? Frankly, what's crazy to me is that it's been 20 years since 9/11, and we haven't even STARTED to put Khalid Mohammed on trial yet, because the government doesn't want to admit in open court they tortured the guy.

That case represents the first documented episode of Uyghurs being extradited at China's request, "marking a watershed in the evolution of Chinese transnational repression," according to the China's Transnational Repression of Uyghurs Dataset, a new database and report that was launched on June 24. It examines 1,546 cases of detention and deportation across 28 countries, from the 1997 incident until March 2021.

CHINA calls them terrorists….what is the truth and why should we turn a blind eye? A lot of authoritarian regimes are using claims of “terrorism” for brutal crackdowns.

That's easy... We called them terrorists as well. ETIM was listed as a terrorist group by the United States government from 2001 until Trump took them off the terrorist list in 2020 because Trump is an idiot.



In terms of Islam, tbey practice a very moderate form of Islam. China’s policy of brutal collective punishment and genocide is going to increase extremism.

Oh, the moderate form of Islam where you knife people on trains? that Moderate form of Islam?

Here's the thing, we've been fighting a 20 year war around the world, have spent TRILLIONS of dollars and killed hundreds of thousands of people, fighting "radical" Islam. The Chinese have a bunch of terrorists IN THEIR OWN BORDERS, and we are really going to diss them for doing something about it?
 

22lcidw

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Yep. It was NOT a "righteous" war (not that any-such thing truly exists).

But it was NOT a genocide.

Deaths were a result of outright war, NOT destroying a helpless population.

Who gives a $hit? Designating a group as 'terrorists' - justly OR unjustly - does NOT equate to genocide.

Yeah... and nobody really proved that Jews were being slaughtered in German concentration camps WHILE the genocide was underway.
Give up your wealth. For all of the suffering. You won't. It is easier to force others to suffer for your self flagellating views. You would be in a monastery of purity but have others from the outside provide you with modern living standards and comforts while you bloviate.
 

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Uh, yeah... the Zionists had to invade Palestine with British help. They weren't actually from there. More to the point, the Zionists are doing the shit they are doing on our dime, and we Americans pay the price when the rest of the Islamic World decides that killing Americans in retaliation is acceptable.

Also, the whole idea that some assholes can do whatever the fuck they want because God told them they could always, always, always rubs me the wrong way. The world will be so much better off when religion becomes a thing of the past.

What is the difference between “doing doing whatever you want” because of your religious beliefs and doing whatever want because you are powerful (I.e. China)? Honestly, it sounds as if you kind of fishing for excuses to somehow make it ok for some states to collectively punish populations while holding other states accountable For doing so. Or, some states can respond forcefully to terrorism and others can not based on how you feel about the various entities.

Genocide is genocide whether it is the Holocaust, Armenians, Rohinga, Uighur. I don’t get why it is somehow considered acceptable under certain rationales.

The Uyghurs, on the other hand, have been under Chinese dominion pretty much since the Yuan Dynasty. Not our circus, not our monkeys.
Are saying we should be isolationist and ignore human rights violations?


And why is that a bad thing? Frankly, what's crazy to me is that it's been 20 years since 9/11, and we haven't even STARTED to put Khalid Mohammed on trial yet, because the government doesn't want to admit in open court they tortured the guy.
So you think a summary execution without a trial is acceptable? I mean, it isn’t like China is know for having fair trials of course.

That's easy... We called them terrorists as well. ETIM was listed as a terrorist group by the United States government from 2001 until Trump took them off the terrorist list in 2020 because Trump is an idiot.


Actually we do not call them terrorists. The Uighur are a large indiginous ethnic group. The ETIM is a specific organization. Not an entire group. Kind of like declaring all African Americans terrorists because of the Black Panthers.



Oh, the moderate form of Islam where you knife people on trains? that Moderate form of Islam?
What does that have to do with Islam?


Here's the thing, we've been fighting a 20 year war around the world, have spent TRILLIONS of dollars and killed hundreds of thousands of people, fighting "radical" Islam. The Chinese have a bunch of terrorists IN THEIR OWN BORDERS, and we are really going to diss them for doing something about it?
So collective punishment on an entire population, including children, and genocide are therefore ok in your book? I have to admit I am flabbergasted.
 

JoeB131

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What is the difference between “doing doing whatever you want” because of your religious beliefs and doing whatever want because you are powerful (I.e. China)? Honestly, it sounds as if you kind of fishing for excuses to somehow make it ok for some states to collectively punish populations while holding other states accountable For doing so. Or, some states can respond forcefully to terrorism and others can not based on how you feel about the various entities.

I kind of explained my reasons. The US is complicit in the oppression (actual oppression, not fake whiny oppression) of the Palestinians. We use our veto power in the UN to protect the Zionist Entity from any consequences for their bad behavior. That makes it our problem.

What China does in China is China's business. Especially when they have nukes and are kind of touchy about the territorial integrity thing.

Genocide is genocide whether it is the Holocaust, Armenians, Rohinga, Uighur. I don’t get why it is somehow considered acceptable under certain rationales.

Except it isn't "genocide" when the number of people in that ethnic group actually INCREASE their numbers and as a percentage of the population. You see, when you have a genocide, you have LESS of those people, not more. The number of Uighers has INCREASED by 2 million over the last decade.

Are saying we should be isolationist and ignore human rights violations?

Works for me. Seems to me we have enough racial injustice and problems to solve in our own country. The ironic thing is that the Chinese have 56 recognized ethnic minorities among the 9% of the population that aren't Han Chinese.

So you think a summary execution without a trial is acceptable? I mean, it isn’t like China is know for having fair trials of course.
As opposed to America, where we've sent people to death row for crimes they didn't commit. I'm on another thread arguing with idiots about the Central Park 5 and how our thankfully ex-president still hasn't apologized for advocating their execution even though they were innocent. Again, we have a lot to clean up in our own house before we complain about the neighbors.

If the Chinese had strong enough evidence to get a Muslim country like Pakistan to extradite Muslims, it was probably pretty strong evidence.

Actually we do not call them terrorists. The Uighur are a large indiginous ethnic group. The ETIM is a specific organization. Not an entire group. Kind of like declaring all African Americans terrorists because of the Black Panthers.
Except the majority of African Americans never supported the Black Panthers... who really didn't engage in a lot of terrorism. ETIM has engaged in multiple acts of terrorism and is supported by a lot of Uighurs.

So collective punishment on an entire population, including children, and genocide are therefore ok in your book? I have to admit I am flabbergasted.
Really? Where were you during the whole War on Terror when we killed a million Afghans and Iraqis?

How many Uighurs have the Chinese ACTUALLY killed. Give me a number, then I'll discuss the whole genocide thing with you.
 

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I kind of explained my reasons. The US is complicit in the oppression (actual oppression, not fake whiny oppression) of the Palestinians. We use our veto power in the UN to protect the Zionist Entity from any consequences for their bad behavior. That makes it our problem.

What China does in China is China's business. Especially when they have nukes and are kind of touchy about the territorial integrity thing.
So....the Palestinians are "real oppression" vs Uighurs "fake whiny oppression"?

I support Palestinian rights, and disagree with some of Israel's policies, but I also recognize it is not a simple black and white thing. Israel also has nukes. Here is what is NOT being done to the Palestinians, just for a bit of comparison.

Forced birth control and sterilizations.

Detainment of over a million Uighurs and other Chinsese Muslims in extra-judicial work camps or prisons where there are allegations of torture, forced sterilizations and rape.

Forced labor camps.

They are not officially calling it genocide, but they are calling it a crime against humanity.

The case for genocide is based on reports that China is taking steps to erase the culture of the Uyghurs and assimilate or diminish the population through programmes of forced relocation and birth control.
In a report published in April, the US-based charity Human Rights Watch concluded that China was responsible for crimes against humanity in Xinjiang - but stopped short of calling the state's actions a genocide.
Amnesty International reached the same conclusion in its own report.

Except it isn't "genocide" when the number of people in that ethnic group actually INCREASE their numbers and as a percentage of the population. You see, when you have a genocide, you have LESS of those people, not more. The number of Uighers has INCREASED by 2 million over the last decade.

DID they increase....?


Why would we believe China's claims when China is known to supress and manipulate information? Look what it's doing to "disappear" Tianemen Square and any other negative allegations made against it.

Works for me. Seems to me we have enough racial injustice and problems to solve in our own country. The ironic thing is that the Chinese have 56 recognized ethnic minorities among the 9% of the population that aren't Han Chinese.


As opposed to America, where we've sent people to death row for crimes they didn't commit. I'm on another thread arguing with idiots about the Central Park 5 and how our thankfully ex-president still hasn't apologized for advocating their execution even though they were innocent. Again, we have a lot to clean up in our own house before we complain about the neighbors.
So we ignore atrocities, REAL atrocities that make the inequities and injustices here (real as they are) pale in comparison? "...with great power comes great responsibility..."

It doesn't have to be an "either or".

If the Chinese had strong enough evidence to get a Muslim country like Pakistan to extradite Muslims, it was probably pretty strong evidence.
Evidence or pressure?


Except the majority of African Americans never supported the Black Panthers... who really didn't engage in a lot of terrorism. ETIM has engaged in multiple acts of terrorism and is supported by a lot of Uighurs.
What evidence do we have of said support? Has it increased following China's campaign of cultural extermination? Even if people support the separitists but don't engage in violence, does that mean the state has a right to re-educate" them, rape them, sterilize them, use them for forced labor?

Really? Where were you during the whole War on Terror when we killed a million Afghans and Iraqis?

Arguing in opposition to it. Here.

How many Uighurs have the Chinese ACTUALLY killed. Give me a number, then I'll discuss the whole genocide thing with you.
Have they allowed anyone in to examine it?
 

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Give up your wealth. For all of the suffering. You won't. It is easier to force others to suffer for your self flagellating views. You would be in a monastery of purity but have others from the outside provide you with modern living standards and comforts while you bloviate.
What-the-hell are you babbling about? Are you operating under the false impression that I support our current polices towards the ChiComs?
 

JoeB131

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So....the Palestinians are "real oppression" vs Uighurs "fake whiny oppression"?

I support Palestinian rights, and disagree with some of Israel's policies, but I also recognize it is not a simple black and white thing. Israel also has nukes. Here is what is NOT being done to the Palestinians, just for a bit of comparison.

Actually, it's a very black and white thing. The Jews of Europe came in and stole their land and made them second class citizens in their own country. Because the Europeans felt really, really bad about what they helped Hitler try to do to them. But instead of giving them a chunk of Europe or America to put their new Jewish State in, they gave away someone else's land. Because we didnt' feel THAT bad about it. This is purely a colonial thing.

Forced birth control and sterilizations.

Which they've also done to the Han majority. China has a POPULATION CRISIS. They have 1.4 BILLION people. While the one child policy was awful and they are going to have other problems in the future. (Such as not enough young people to take care of their aging population, or the disparity of male to females in that generation) the sad thing is they had an extreme situation and took an extreme reaction to it.

Detainment of over a million Uighurs and other Chinsese Muslims in extra-judicial work camps or prisons where there are allegations of torture, forced sterilizations and rape.

Which again, a reaction to ETIM's terrorism.

They are not officially calling it genocide, but they are calling it a crime against humanity.

he case for genocide is based on reports that China is taking steps to erase the culture of the Uyghurs and assimilate or diminish the population through programmes of forced relocation and birth control.In a report published in April, the US-based charity Human Rights Watch concluded that China was responsible for crimes against humanity in Xinjiang - but stopped short of calling the state's actions a genocide.Amnesty International reached the same conclusion in its own report.

Well, some White people in Europe are calling it genocide, that's good enough for me! Ah, Europeans, always happy to tell people of color what their problems are...

Why would we believe China's claims when China is known to supress and manipulate information? Look what it's doing to "disappear" Tianemen Square and any other negative allegations made against it.

Um, yeah. So? And in America, we have a bunch of right wingers who are throwing an absolute shit fit over CRT or taking down Confederate statues.

1639311695352.png


As a student of history, I've found that ALL nations are really good at understanding other countries' flaws, but not our own.

So we ignore atrocities, REAL atrocities that make the inequities and injustices here (real as they are) pale in comparison? "...with great power comes great responsibility..."

It doesn't have to be an "either or".

Sure it does. Not our circus, not our monkeys... Kind of like if I see some drunken dipshit pick a fight with the biggest nastiest biker in the bar, I don't get involved when he gets his head stomped into the floor. The Uighers KNOW who they are dealing with, they engaged in terrorism and threw in with Al Qaeda anyway.

I mean, I know it's not like us, where we make sure they have exercise yards and access to their Korans when we catch them trying to murder us... I think our hasty retreat from Kabul shows that the "killing them with kindness" strategy doesn't work.

Evidence or pressure?
Again, probably a little of both. Let's keep in mind, Pakistan has been double dealing us for years, supporting the Taliban while claiming to be our "allies". Hiding bin Laden for a decade within blocks of their military academy. I wish they were that pliable.

What evidence do we have of said support? Has it increased following China's campaign of cultural extermination? Even if people support the separitists but don't engage in violence, does that mean the state has a right to re-educate" them, rape them, sterilize them, use them for forced labor?

Good question. My Cherokee Ancestors probably wondered the same thing. Then Great Grandma married an old white guy and decided to assimilate.

Have they allowed anyone in to examine it?

Yeah, it's not like China is a sovereign nation or anything...

This is what you don't seem to get. For us, it's getting weepy about people we normally wouldn't care about, because we are upset the Chinese are eating our lunch economically.

For them, it's about the last 150 years of outsiders trying to exploit their country and infringe on their sovereignty.

So let's review.

Hong Kong- Illegally stolen from China after the Opium Wars.
Taiwan - Illegally stolen from China by Japan, given to the Kuomintang after the War by the US.
Tibet - The British openly encouraged them to defy Chinese sovereignty
Xinjian- the Russians, Al Qaeda and now the west are encouraging Uighur separatists.
 

Coyote

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Actually, it's a very black and white thing. The Jews of Europe came in and stole their land and made them second class citizens in their own country. Because the Europeans felt really, really bad about what they helped Hitler try to do to them. But instead of giving them a chunk of Europe or America to put their new Jewish State in, they gave away someone else's land. Because we didnt' feel THAT bad about it. This is purely a colonial thing.

For the sake of argument, let’s just assume that is true….

1. China’s ethnic majority coming in to steal Uighur land…putting them in labor camps, forced population reduction measures, opens up land to the Han migrants. China conqured the Provence during it’s colonial era.


China is pursuing a “population optimization strategy” to dilute the Uyghur majority in southern Xinjiang by raising the proportion of Han Chinese through immigration while imposing strict birth controls on the Uyghurs, says a report based on official Chinese documents and academic debate.


Which they've also done to the Han majority. China has a POPULATION CRISIS. They have 1.4 BILLION people. While the one child policy was awful and they are going to have other problems in the future. (Such as not enough young people to take care of their aging population, or the disparity of male to females in that generation) the sad thing is they had an extreme situation and took an extreme reaction to it.

The measures being taken against the Uighurs are not the “one child” policy, which they have since relaxed.


Which again, a reaction to ETIM's terrorism.
Since when is collective punishment acceptable?

International humanitarian law posits that no person may be punished for acts that he or she did not commit. It ensures that the collective punishment of a group of persons for a crime committed by an individual is also forbidden, whether in the case of prisoners of war or of any other individuals (GCIII Art. 87, API Art. 75.2.d, APII Art. 4.2.b). This is one of the fundamental guarantees established by the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their 1977 Additional Protocols. This guarantee is applicable not only to protected persons but to all individuals, no matter what their status or to what category of persons they belong, as defined by the Geneva Conventions (GCIV Art. 33).


Well, some White people in Europe are calling it genocide, that's good enough for me! Ah, Europeans, always happy to tell people of color what their problems are...

Definition​

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
  1. Killing members of the group;
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
B, C and D might apply.

Um, yeah. So? And in America, we have a bunch of right wingers who are throwing an absolute shit fit over CRT or taking down Confederate statues.

View attachment 574788

As a student of history, I've found that ALL nations are really good at understanding other countries' flaws, but not our own.

Which has nothing to do with what is happening to the Uighurs, it isn’t an either/or situation. And as to your last statement, agree.

Sure it does. Not our circus, not our monkeys... Kind of like if I see some drunken dipshit pick a fight with the biggest nastiest biker in the bar, I don't get involved when he gets his head stomped into the floor. The Uighers KNOW who they are dealing with, they engaged in terrorism and threw in with Al Qaeda anyway.

So we should mind our own business when it comes to the Palestinians? Withdraw all aid and let Israel sort them out?

Collective punishment is a human rights violation under international law. Are we part of that community or do, as Trump wanted, go isolationist?
I mean, I know it's not like us, where we make sure they have exercise yards and access to their Korans when we catch them trying to murder us... I think our hasty retreat from Kabul shows that the "killing them with kindness" strategy doesn't work.

That is a whole other issue. Can you explain to me what these children to be forceably separated from their families and put into China’s notoriously horrendous orphanage system? No, their parents likely didn’t do anything either.

Again, probably a little of both. Let's keep in mind, Pakistan has been double dealing us for years, supporting the Taliban while claiming to be our "allies". Hiding bin Laden for a decade within blocks of their military academy. I wish they were that pliable.
Yup. They also likely have economic ties.
Good question. My Cherokee Ancestors probably wondered the same thing. Then Great Grandma married an old white guy and decided to assimilate.



Yeah, it's not like China is a sovereign nation or anything...

This is what you don't seem to get. For us, it's getting weepy about people we normally wouldn't care about, because we are upset the Chinese are eating our lunch economically.
Speak for yourself. Whatever different people’s motivations are, it doesn’t change the reality of what is happening to those people. We are going through a cultural catharsis over our past treatment of minorities and native peoples yet ignoring even more extreme violations elsewhere. China is not some little banana republic. It has economic and cultural leverage world wide. It is making Tiannimen Square disappear, and it is influencing our own right of free speech.

For them, it's about the last 150 years of outsiders trying to exploit their country and infringe on their sovereignty.

So let's review.

Hong Kong- Illegally stolen from China after the Opium Wars.
Taiwan - Illegally stolen from China by Japan, given to the Kuomintang after the War by the US.
Tibet - The British openly encouraged them to defy Chinese sovereignty
Xinjian- the Russians, Al Qaeda and now the west are encouraging Uighur separatists.
China “annexed” (conquered) Tibet and is in the process of “assimilation” and cultural extermination. That isn’t long ago history.

Do you support Russia taking back the countries it conquered during it’s Soviet period? If it is Ok for China to conquer a country why isn’t it ok for Europeans?

At what point in time does country have a right to be recognized independently and under what conditions? (Taiwan)?
 

JoeB131

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For the sake of argument, let’s just assume that is true….

1. China’s ethnic majority coming in to steal Uighur land…putting them in labor camps, forced population reduction measures, opens up land to the Han migrants. China conqured the Provence during it’s colonial era.

Well, not exactly. Various Dynasties have held control over the region, long before the Uighers started migrating into it. The Han Dynasty c. 200 BCE to 200 CE controlled the region as part of the Silk Road. So did the Yuan and Qing dynasties, even though they were dynasties started by foreigners (Mongolians and Manchus, respectively) who assimiliated into Chinese culture. the history is complex and really none of our business.

China is pursuing a “population optimization strategy” to dilute the Uyghur majority in southern Xinjiang by raising the proportion of Han Chinese through immigration while imposing strict birth controls on the Uyghurs, says a report based on official Chinese documents and academic debate.

And? How is this different than what the US did with the west and Native Americans?

Since when is collective punishment acceptable?

Oh, I would say when we bombed the shit out of Japanese and German civilians in World War II. That's when it became acceptable. You do what you have to do to win the war. The Uighurs want the Chinese to stop beating them up, hand over the ETIM terrorists.


So we should mind our own business when it comes to the Palestinians? Withdraw all aid and let Israel sort them out?

Actually, what we really need to do is stop letting AIPAC dictate what our policies are. The problem is you work on the delusion the Jews aren't running our foreign policy. The squad is made up of a whole four people criticizing the Zionist Entity, and the Jewish Lobby is freaking the fuck out that is happening.

The Christian Wackos who think we need to have Jews in Palestine for Jesus to come back are part of the problem as well.

That is a whole other issue. Can you explain to me what these children to be forceably separated from their families and put into China’s notoriously horrendous orphanage system? No, their parents likely didn’t do anything either.

Again, I seem to remember something about kids being separated from their families in this country because their parents crossed the border illegally. Let's clean up our own problems, first.

Speak for yourself. Whatever different people’s motivations are, it doesn’t change the reality of what is happening to those people. We are going through a cultural catharsis over our past treatment of minorities and native peoples yet ignoring even more extreme violations elsewhere. China is not some little banana republic. It has economic and cultural leverage world wide. It is making Tiannimen Square disappear, and it is influencing our own right of free speech.

Why do you keep going on about Tianimen Square. Some spoiled kids asked for something their government wasn't ready to give. You ask your average Chinese about Tianeman Square, they aren't nearly as sympathetic.

It's really not our place to get involved in China's business.

I was recently in a business meeting involving some people from Taiwan and Hong Kong, talking about the Hong Kong protesters. They were in fact, pretty sympathetic to the mainland's position.

If anything, the chinese have shown a lot of restraint dealing with some of these groups.

China “annexed” (conquered) Tibet and is in the process of “assimilation” and cultural extermination. That isn’t long ago history.

Except that Tibet was part of China back to the Qing period.

What is happening is that these minorities are finding themselves sitting on top of a lot of land they aren't using, and the Han Chinese not having enough space to put all the people they have... The story of humanity is one of migration.

On my mother's side, I have a Cherokee Grandmother... but my dad was a fresh off the boat German immigrant. People move. People get displaced. Some cultures win and some cultures lose.

The problem is, when you have 1.4 billion Han needing resources and living space, and 12 million Uighers who want to to their own thing, I think we know how that is going to turn out.

1639324026993.png


Do you support Russia taking back the countries it conquered during it’s Soviet period? If it is Ok for China to conquer a country why isn’t it ok for Europeans?

Actually, I have no problem with Russian areas of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldava joining Russia.

At what point in time does country have a right to be recognized independently and under what conditions? (Taiwan)?
The point where the country that has the legitimate claim says, "Yup. that sounds reasonable". Of course, the Taiwanese are maintaining the delusion they are the legitimate government of China, not an independent country.
 

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Well, not exactly. Various Dynasties have held control over the region, long before the Uighers started migrating into it. The Han Dynasty c. 200 BCE to 200 CE controlled the region as part of the Silk Road. So did the Yuan and Qing dynasties, even though they were dynasties started by foreigners (Mongolians and Manchus, respectively) who assimiliated into Chinese culture. the history is complex and really none of our business.

I would dispute that...the "official" Chinese version of history says that, just as they claim to have "liberated' the province. But most historians seem to think that the Uighur originated in the Xinjiang (or East Turkestan) region. They are listed as an indiginous people to that region: List of indigenous peoples - Wikipedia


I agree it's complex. I disagree it's none of our business.

And? How is this different than what the US did with the west and Native Americans?

Did I say it's any different? The only difference I can see is it is happening NOW. When there should be a different ethic.

Oh, I would say when we bombed the shit out of Japanese and German civilians in World War II. That's when it became acceptable. You do what you have to do to win the war. The Uighurs want the Chinese to stop beating them up, hand over the ETIM terrorists.

Collective punishment didn't become a war crime until 1949.

Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishment is a war crime. By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World War I and World War II. In the First World War, the Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity during the Rape of Belgium. In World War II, both German and Japanese forces carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that occurred at those places.[5] The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility.

Isn't that what they are doing to the Uighur's?

Actually, what we really need to do is stop letting AIPAC dictate what our policies are. The problem is you work on the delusion the Jews aren't running our foreign policy. The squad is made up of a whole four people criticizing the Zionist Entity, and the Jewish Lobby is freaking the fuck out that is happening.

The Christian Wackos who think we need to have Jews in Palestine for Jesus to come back are part of the problem as well.
I'm going to leave that alone since it would totally derail the topic but - if you oppose collective punishment on the Palestinians for the actions of terrorists yet support collective punishment on the Uighurs for the actions of terrorists - that is not a consistent argument.

Again, I seem to remember something about kids being separated from their families in this country because their parents crossed the border illegally. Let's clean up our own problems, first.
Yes indeed. And I was pretty damned outspoken about it. Does that mean we should look the other way when it's happening elsewhere.

That's how genocide's start.

Why do you keep going on about Tianimen Square. Some spoiled kids asked for something their government wasn't ready to give. You ask your average Chinese about Tianeman Square, they aren't nearly as sympathetic.
So their government squashed them with tanks and shot them. The thing is not so much that as the careful and deliberate attempt to erase it from Chinese history and memory. Anytime there is a gross violation of human rights.

It's really not our place to get involved in China's business.

I was recently in a business meeting involving some people from Taiwan and Hong Kong, talking about the Hong Kong protesters. They were in fact, pretty sympathetic to the mainland's position.

If anything, the chinese have shown a lot of restraint dealing with some of these groups.

So since Germany was "dealing" with it's "Jewish problem"....we shouldn't have gotten involved? Actually that WAS the predominant position in America at the time. It took a contrived attack on the US to get involved and by the end 2/3 of Europes Jews were dead. How about ISIS' genocide of the Yazidi? ISIS' was the self declared ruler of their "Caliphate"....should we have ignored it? Where do you decide to draw a line?

Forced sterilizations, disappeared people, children seperated from parents....you know we and Canada are only just beginning to reconcile with what we did to the indiginous people here - forceable seperation of children from family, community, culture and putting them into boarding schools where conditions could be so brutal many died.
Except that Tibet was part of China back to the Qing period.

What is happening is that these minorities are finding themselves sitting on top of a lot of land they aren't using, and the Han Chinese not having enough space to put all the people they have... The story of humanity is one of migration.
I wonder...who is to say they aren't "using it"? One article pointed out that that provinces arid climate had limited resources. In order to move more Han there, they had to find ways to reduce the indiginous population.

On my mother's side, I have a Cherokee Grandmother... but my dad was a fresh off the boat German immigrant. People move. People get displaced. Some cultures win and some cultures lose.

The problem is, when you have 1.4 billion Han needing resources and living space, and 12 million Uighers who want to to their own thing, I think we know how that is going to turn out.

View attachment 574882



Actually, I have no problem with Russian areas of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldava joining Russia.


The point where the country that has the legitimate claim says, "Yup. that sounds reasonable". Of course, the Taiwanese are maintaining the delusion they are the legitimate government of China, not an independent country.

People move and get displaced, yes we see that happening in real time. I guess the point is do we continue to form our ethics based on some principle of manifest destiny and ignore atrocities until it breaks down our doors?
 

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I agree it's complex. I disagree it's none of our business.
Given our long history of epic fail in getting involved in other people's internal affairs, that's exactly why we SHOULD avoid getting involved.

Did I say it's any different? The only difference I can see is it is happening NOW. When there should be a different ethic.
I would say that we are the last people to go around telling other people how to handle their ethnic minorities.

Collective punishment didn't become a war crime until 1949.

The difference between war criminals and war heroes is the difference between winners and losers. Otherwise we would have put Hap Arnold on the same docket as Herman Goering.

So since Germany was "dealing" with it's "Jewish problem"....we shouldn't have gotten involved? Actually that WAS the predominant position in America at the time. It took a contrived attack on the US to get involved and by the end 2/3 of Europes Jews were dead. How about ISIS' genocide of the Yazidi? ISIS' was the self declared ruler of their "Caliphate"....should we have ignored it? Where do you decide to draw a line?

Okay, you are kind of making my point for me. The reason why ISIS even existed to kill the Yazidis (A hated religious group who worship Islam's Satan) is because WE toppled Saddam. The Yazidis were doing fine under Saddam, he wasn't bothering them. We went in, destablizied the country, pitted factions against each other, and then Iraq had another civil war. In short, our do-gooder mentality made things a lot worse. (Even though almost all the reasons we went after Saddam to start with were contrived by the Zionist Lobby.)

We suck at this and we almost always make things worse.

Forced sterilizations, disappeared people, children seperated from parents....you know we and Canada are only just beginning to reconcile with what we did to the indiginous people here - forceable seperation of children from family, community, culture and putting them into boarding schools where conditions could be so brutal many died.
Yup, it was kind of stupid of them to throw in with Al Qaeda, wasn't it?

People move and get displaced, yes we see that happening in real time. I guess the point is do we continue to form our ethics based on some principle of manifest destiny and ignore atrocities until it breaks down our doors?

Or we recognize the reality that a pissing match with China over the Uighurs is kind of stupid. We obviously can't go to war with them. My Home Owner's Association would take a very dim view if I started digging a fallout shelter. Economic Sanctions. One of the contributing factors to our current economic mess was Trump's half-ass trade war with China.
 

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