This thread is to challenge sealybobo on false claims that
1. Christian forgiveness means people can sin or do any wrongs they want and this doesn't matter once they are saved (I argue this is not how forgiveness works on an emotional/spiritual level, where the wrongs committed in the natural physical world are still governed by natural laws and require corrections and restitution)
2. Christianity means condemning gays to hell (which I argue leaves out Gay Christians and Christian Healers who don't believe in or teach that, but have successfully shared Christian healing based on forgiveness not condemnation)
If Christians are teaching their own Christian faith wrong, that can be corrected.
And I cite proof by Christians and even secular counselors teaching it right who are able to counsel people through forgiveness, healing and recovery; and it does NOT mean doing the things above that sealybobo is blaming on Christianity. Christianity does not teach those things, but people might be teaching it wrong.
So I challenge sealybobo to credit the Christians and secular counselors who are teaching it right,
and quit reinforcing the misperceptions of forgiveness and Christianity that are not the real way life works.
I can cite even secular sources of how forgiveness works to show this is natural; and cite Christian sources of healing that are consistent with natural laws and don't teach false things that run contrary to this process.
===================
1 and 2. You can equally blame the govt laws on property that made people obey property laws on slavery, where it was theft of property to free slaves, and even courts ruled in favor of enforcing property laws of the state.
Why are you just blaming Christianity for this and not mentioning that state laws enforced slavery?
Because you are biased about ragging on religion, and not equally against ALL factors that went into slavery.
2. You are mixing two different laws. Forgiveness and heaven is about the spiritual level.
When people commit human rights violations and damages on the level of natural laws,
then restitution is still owed. Debts do not magically go away, that's not how the human conscience works.
We can learn and agree to forgive on a spiritual level, but that doesn't erase the corrections due on the physical level.
sealybobo why do you think there is still so many problems with poverty and lack of knowledge of property ownership
and business/govt management among blacks? Because of the "carried down EFFECTS" of slavery that IMPACTS future generations. THIS DAMAGE does not Magically go away. The African and Native Americans still carry wounds from past genocides and the debts of being owed restitution for the robbery of their heritage and land (also Freedmen's Town where land was taken from Black families, churches and community to rob them of their ability to develop an equal foundation).
The sins of the past repeat in the future if these are not resolved.
But where people forgive and agree to SHARE this responsibility on a spiritual level, then corrections can be made to heal the wounds of the past and resolve past debts. So that is where Christian faith comes in that this can be done through Forgiveness and healing. AND thus corrections AND restitution that follows from healing those wounds so problems can be resolved openly not denied and hidden. Counselors in recovery therapy can tell you that forgiveness and letting go are about healing the wounds, and not about overlooking the wrongs that are still wrong and still need to be addressed in society.
Forgiving rape does not make the rape go away or make it okay, it means the victim can let go and heal and not carry the shame and fear that came from the actions of the rapist. If you do not understand this, you are missing how therapy works.
3. as for #3 sealybobo again you conveniently leave out
a. the Christians who are gay and have counseled people to forgive and accept they were spiritually born that way because God has reasons for them to serve in this life as gay
again, if you leave out the gay Christians you are making a lopsided argument because you want to bash Christians
what about the gays who don't teach Christianity that way,
Are you going to DISCRIMINATE against gays for being Christian and condemn them for teaching it wrong?
b. even the straight Christians who do not believe that homosexuality is natural or God's ideal will
and who PRAY and help people HEAL of these conditions wherever it is possible,
take the path of FORGIVENESS to bring healing and DON'T CONDEMN ANYONE TO HELL
Are you going to DISCRIMINATE against Christians who successfully heal homosexuality?
Why? when this way works, why would you leave that out?
Unless you have a selfish agenda to try to rag on Christians.
This is biased twice as much:
you are only counting Christians as valid who condemn gays to hell
but you"conveniently" leave out two other groups of Christians
a. gay Christians who understand some conditions are naturally born and made by God
b. straight Christians who do not agree with homosexuality but don't condemn it but
work through forgiveness therapy to heal the person of any conditions in their spiritual past that may cause this
sealybobo why are you limiting your arguments and interpretations of Christianity
to the one group that you agree is wrong, and leaving out two groups that would teach it differently
and have shown that their way of forgiveness works to heal people and bring peace as taught in the Bible.
why would you do that?
1. Christian forgiveness means people can sin or do any wrongs they want and this doesn't matter once they are saved (I argue this is not how forgiveness works on an emotional/spiritual level, where the wrongs committed in the natural physical world are still governed by natural laws and require corrections and restitution)
2. Christianity means condemning gays to hell (which I argue leaves out Gay Christians and Christian Healers who don't believe in or teach that, but have successfully shared Christian healing based on forgiveness not condemnation)
If Christians are teaching their own Christian faith wrong, that can be corrected.
And I cite proof by Christians and even secular counselors teaching it right who are able to counsel people through forgiveness, healing and recovery; and it does NOT mean doing the things above that sealybobo is blaming on Christianity. Christianity does not teach those things, but people might be teaching it wrong.
So I challenge sealybobo to credit the Christians and secular counselors who are teaching it right,
and quit reinforcing the misperceptions of forgiveness and Christianity that are not the real way life works.
I can cite even secular sources of how forgiveness works to show this is natural; and cite Christian sources of healing that are consistent with natural laws and don't teach false things that run contrary to this process.
===================
1 and 2. You can equally blame the govt laws on property that made people obey property laws on slavery, where it was theft of property to free slaves, and even courts ruled in favor of enforcing property laws of the state.
Why are you just blaming Christianity for this and not mentioning that state laws enforced slavery?
Because you are biased about ragging on religion, and not equally against ALL factors that went into slavery.
2. You are mixing two different laws. Forgiveness and heaven is about the spiritual level.
When people commit human rights violations and damages on the level of natural laws,
then restitution is still owed. Debts do not magically go away, that's not how the human conscience works.
We can learn and agree to forgive on a spiritual level, but that doesn't erase the corrections due on the physical level.
sealybobo why do you think there is still so many problems with poverty and lack of knowledge of property ownership
and business/govt management among blacks? Because of the "carried down EFFECTS" of slavery that IMPACTS future generations. THIS DAMAGE does not Magically go away. The African and Native Americans still carry wounds from past genocides and the debts of being owed restitution for the robbery of their heritage and land (also Freedmen's Town where land was taken from Black families, churches and community to rob them of their ability to develop an equal foundation).
The sins of the past repeat in the future if these are not resolved.
But where people forgive and agree to SHARE this responsibility on a spiritual level, then corrections can be made to heal the wounds of the past and resolve past debts. So that is where Christian faith comes in that this can be done through Forgiveness and healing. AND thus corrections AND restitution that follows from healing those wounds so problems can be resolved openly not denied and hidden. Counselors in recovery therapy can tell you that forgiveness and letting go are about healing the wounds, and not about overlooking the wrongs that are still wrong and still need to be addressed in society.
Forgiving rape does not make the rape go away or make it okay, it means the victim can let go and heal and not carry the shame and fear that came from the actions of the rapist. If you do not understand this, you are missing how therapy works.
3. as for #3 sealybobo again you conveniently leave out
a. the Christians who are gay and have counseled people to forgive and accept they were spiritually born that way because God has reasons for them to serve in this life as gay
again, if you leave out the gay Christians you are making a lopsided argument because you want to bash Christians
what about the gays who don't teach Christianity that way,
Are you going to DISCRIMINATE against gays for being Christian and condemn them for teaching it wrong?
b. even the straight Christians who do not believe that homosexuality is natural or God's ideal will
and who PRAY and help people HEAL of these conditions wherever it is possible,
take the path of FORGIVENESS to bring healing and DON'T CONDEMN ANYONE TO HELL
Are you going to DISCRIMINATE against Christians who successfully heal homosexuality?
Why? when this way works, why would you leave that out?
Unless you have a selfish agenda to try to rag on Christians.
This is biased twice as much:
you are only counting Christians as valid who condemn gays to hell
but you"conveniently" leave out two other groups of Christians
a. gay Christians who understand some conditions are naturally born and made by God
b. straight Christians who do not agree with homosexuality but don't condemn it but
work through forgiveness therapy to heal the person of any conditions in their spiritual past that may cause this
sealybobo why are you limiting your arguments and interpretations of Christianity
to the one group that you agree is wrong, and leaving out two groups that would teach it differently
and have shown that their way of forgiveness works to heal people and bring peace as taught in the Bible.
why would you do that?
