What's new
US Message Board 🦅 Political Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Schism Looms: Pope Francis and the Willfully Rebellious Church in Germany

Mortimer

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
6,695
Reaction score
2,064
Points
260
Location
American Nationalist
COMMENTARY: The Holy Father’s German gamble failed. He led with an open hand and got a clenched fist in return.

2021032522038_e48921bb6afe5dbcf21ec305ba660e9941c806d325cc4d9ee508c421af1b9979.webp

Pope Francis meets the German Bishops' Conference, 2019. (photo: Daniel Ibañez / CNA/EWTN)
Father Raymond J. de Souza CommentariesMarch 25, 2021
In March 2013, Pope Francis spoke of how much he would like a “poor Church for the poor.” At his eighth anniversary, it is the richest of all local churches that threatens to devour his entire pontificate.
The Holy Father began his ninth year with yet another attempt to rein in the rebellious Church in Germany. A document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith stated that the Church has no power to bless same-sex unions.
Cardinal Blase Cupich, the chief interpreter of the Holy Father’s pastoral priorities in the U.S. episcopate, said that there was “nothing new” in the CDF statement. Yet it created a firestorm in Germany, with hundreds of theologians and a few bishops expressing their disagreement. In the United States, the charge against the CDF was led by the Jesuit America magazine.
Indeed, America’s Rome correspondent, Gerard O’Connell, went to great lengths to suggest that somehow Pope Francis did not really mean what the CDF said, despite giving his public and official “assent” to its publication.

O’Connell’s efforts became slightly hilarious when he argued that the March 12 ban on Masses in St. Peter’s Basilica certainly reflected what Pope Francis devoutly desired, though it had no reference to him whatsoever, while the March 15 CDF statement should be doubted, despite the Holy Father explicitly assenting to it. O’Connell is the de facto stenographer of the papal court, reliably passing on the consensus of those around Pope Francis.
The mutually contradictory explanations offered indicate the level of anxiety in those circles. There is anxiety because the great progressive gamble of the Pope Francis pontificate appears to have failed.
While initially expressing the desire for a “poor Church for the poor,” the Holy Father has pursued the long-desired agenda of the rich Churches.
He opened three key issues dear to the rich local Churches of Europe, Germany primary among them: Holy Communion for the civilly divorced and remarried; authority over liturgical translations; and enhanced doctrinal authority for national bishops’ conferences. All three were advanced under the banner of “synodality.” All three issues had been definitively resolved by St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI, in Familiaris Consortio, Liturgium Authenticam and Apostolis Suos, all in a way displeasing to the majority liberal wing of the German bishops. The growing local Churches in the global south — the actual poor Churches — had little interest in the inward-looking German agenda.

The Francis gamble was that in advancing the “rich Church for the rich” agenda, Pope Francis might be able to breathe some evangelical life into the dying Churches of Europe. Hence he has kept silent even on practices that flagrantly violate his entire poverello spirit, like the German practice of denying the sacraments, including a church funeral, to those who do not pay the annual church tax. In 2019, that tax generated nearly $8 billion in revenue for the German Church.
The German episcopate evidently judged the accommodating gestures of Pope Francis as too weak after 35 years of dealing with the firm stances of John Paul and Benedict. They pocketed the concessions made by the Holy Father and decided to press for maximum advantage. Hence the “Synodal Path,” which is now underway in Germany. There is no mystery as to where the path will lead: changes in the Church’s teaching on marriage, divorce, homosexuality and contraception; changes in the teaching on holy orders; and the diminution of the authority of bishops to govern the Church.
The Holy Father’s German gamble failed. He led with an open hand and got a clenched fist in return. He is unwilling to go where the majority of the German bishops are heading.
Now the long-feared and long-avoided post-conciliar catastrophe is at hand: schism. In the turmoil that often follows ecumenical councils, compounded by the social and cultural upheaval of the late 1960s, the challenge faced by St. Paul VI, St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI was to prevent schism. It was feared from the “progressive” side, given the passionate energies were boiling over. Through a series of skillful and courageous decisions, from Humanae Vitae and the Credo of the People of God, to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Veritatis Splendor, the helmsmen kept the Church united in the truth of Christ, throughout the tempests.

The only division was a minor one in terms of numbers, with the followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre moving into an irregular, but not schismatic, canonical situation. That situation has, in large part, been practically resolved with generous gestures on the part of both Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.
Meanwhile, the Germanic locus of progressive dissent has been patient, waiting perhaps for a pope from the “ends of the earth” whom they judged that they could manipulate and intimidate.
But Pope Francis is no fool. He knows the stakes and that his entire agenda and the legacy of his pontificate hangs in the balance. Should the schism come on his watch, his priorities of “synodality” and “discernment” will be thoroughly discredited in practice, even if they are not wholly responsible for the German mutiny. A pope who presides over schism is a failed pope before the judgment that every supreme pastor of the Church must face.
That’s why Pope Francis has made it abundantly clear that the German “Synodal Path” is unacceptable and must be abandoned as originally formulated. The Holy Father wrote a lengthy and blistering letter to the Church in Germany in June 2019, warning them that their path would end up “multiplying and nurturing the evils it wanted to overcome.”

Thereupon followed a letter from Cardinal Marc Ouellet, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, to the German bishops in September 2019, flatly stating the synod plans were not “ecclesiologically valid.” The Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts ruled at the same time that the alleged “binding nature” of the German project was a legal fantasy, as no one could give, much less had given, that authority to the “synodal path.”
A year later, with the Germans taking no heed whatsoever of the Holy Father’s objections, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, Cardinal Kurt Koch, revealed that the Holy Father had expressed grave concerns about the general direction of the Church in Germany.
Now the CDF has weighed in on the practice of blessing same-sex unions, already illicitly underway in some German parishes, and certainly to be one of the decisions of the “binding synodal path.”
Pope Francis has thus engaged the battle for Germany with considerable vigor. The managers of the German “Synodal Path” have treated his interventions with contempt and disdain, and wholly ignored his pleas for Catholic unity in doctrine and discipline. The ninth year of the Francis pontificate will be consumed by the consequences of that contumacy.

 

DGS49

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
12,476
Reaction score
7,960
Points
1,065
Location
Pittsburgh
Error Code 69: Insufficient attention span.

Sorry.
 

zaangalewa

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
14,689
Reaction score
1,277
Points
140
Mortimer

Eh? Many words - many nonsense. Most Catholics in Germany just simple think priests should be allowed to marry, women should also be able to become priests and homosexuals should be able to be blessed in a church, if they like to live together in a long term partnership with the help of god. And most German Catholics love Pope Francis.

And today is good Friday, Mortimer. Our churches are wasted, the tabernacles are open and empty and desperation and fear is all around three times before the cock will hopefully crow.
 
Last edited:

Polishprince

Diamond Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
36,807
Reaction score
23,840
Points
1,915
Germany has a state enforced "Church Tax".

If you are registered as a member of recognized church, the government charges you a church tax that they forward to the church.

Huge source of revenue for the RCC and other religious bodies.

But as a result, there are all kinds of paying members of the Catholic Church who really aren't believers.

But they still are paying.

Its a different situation than here in America for sure.
 

zaangalewa

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
14,689
Reaction score
1,277
Points
140
Germany has a state enforced "Church Tax".

What's nonsense. Church tax is an offer which is payed from the religious organisations which use it - and are allowed to use it. Criminals and terrorists are for example not able to use it. It's a system of an earnings-related membership fee. The churches (and other religious groups) pay the costs for this service.

If you are registered as a member of recognized church, the government charges you a church tax that they forward to the church.

Huge source of revenue for the RCC and other religious bodies.

But as a result, there are all kinds of paying members of the Catholic Church who really aren't believers.

Who cares? Analogy: If someone is a member of a fisher club then he has not the duty to be a fisher. He pays his membership fee, that's all. If he doesn't like to pay then he has to leave the fisher club. And tell me why someone pays on his own free will money to a church who believes not in this church - or hopes for this church. Your idea makes not any sense.

But they still are paying.

Its a different situation than here in America for sure.

The USA has a situation in this context? That's new to me. Thought you have the absolute chaos in everything what has to do with religion. If you would use a system of church taxes as we do then you would be perhaps the biggest atheistic nation in the world - but you pay an unbelievable amount of money to many criminals and criminal organsations in this context.

We prefer by the way also to realize religious education made from professionals in all schools. In the USA dominates the belief "atheism" in schools, because you think atheism is neutral.
 
Last edited:

Iamartiewhitefox

VIP Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2021
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
195
Points
63
COMMENTARY: The Holy Father’s German gamble failed. He led with an open hand and got a clenched fist in return.

2021032522038_e48921bb6afe5dbcf21ec305ba660e9941c806d325cc4d9ee508c421af1b9979.webp

Pope Francis meets the German Bishops' Conference, 2019. (photo: Daniel Ibañez / CNA/EWTN)
Father Raymond J. de Souza CommentariesMarch 25, 2021
In March 2013, Pope Francis spoke of how much he would like a “poor Church for the poor.” At his eighth anniversary, it is the richest of all local churches that threatens to devour his entire pontificate.
The Holy Father began his ninth year with yet another attempt to rein in the rebellious Church in Germany. A document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith stated that the Church has no power to bless same-sex unions.
Cardinal Blase Cupich, the chief interpreter of the Holy Father’s pastoral priorities in the U.S. episcopate, said that there was “nothing new” in the CDF statement. Yet it created a firestorm in Germany, with hundreds of theologians and a few bishops expressing their disagreement. In the United States, the charge against the CDF was led by the Jesuit America magazine.
Indeed, America’s Rome correspondent, Gerard O’Connell, went to great lengths to suggest that somehow Pope Francis did not really mean what the CDF said, despite giving his public and official “assent” to its publication.

O’Connell’s efforts became slightly hilarious when he argued that the March 12 ban on Masses in St. Peter’s Basilica certainly reflected what Pope Francis devoutly desired, though it had no reference to him whatsoever, while the March 15 CDF statement should be doubted, despite the Holy Father explicitly assenting to it. O’Connell is the de facto stenographer of the papal court, reliably passing on the consensus of those around Pope Francis.
The mutually contradictory explanations offered indicate the level of anxiety in those circles. There is anxiety because the great progressive gamble of the Pope Francis pontificate appears to have failed.
While initially expressing the desire for a “poor Church for the poor,” the Holy Father has pursued the long-desired agenda of the rich Churches.
He opened three key issues dear to the rich local Churches of Europe, Germany primary among them: Holy Communion for the civilly divorced and remarried; authority over liturgical translations; and enhanced doctrinal authority for national bishops’ conferences. All three were advanced under the banner of “synodality.” All three issues had been definitively resolved by St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI, in Familiaris Consortio, Liturgium Authenticam and Apostolis Suos, all in a way displeasing to the majority liberal wing of the German bishops. The growing local Churches in the global south — the actual poor Churches — had little interest in the inward-looking German agenda.

The Francis gamble was that in advancing the “rich Church for the rich” agenda, Pope Francis might be able to breathe some evangelical life into the dying Churches of Europe. Hence he has kept silent even on practices that flagrantly violate his entire poverello spirit, like the German practice of denying the sacraments, including a church funeral, to those who do not pay the annual church tax. In 2019, that tax generated nearly $8 billion in revenue for the German Church.
The German episcopate evidently judged the accommodating gestures of Pope Francis as too weak after 35 years of dealing with the firm stances of John Paul and Benedict. They pocketed the concessions made by the Holy Father and decided to press for maximum advantage. Hence the “Synodal Path,” which is now underway in Germany. There is no mystery as to where the path will lead: changes in the Church’s teaching on marriage, divorce, homosexuality and contraception; changes in the teaching on holy orders; and the diminution of the authority of bishops to govern the Church.
The Holy Father’s German gamble failed. He led with an open hand and got a clenched fist in return. He is unwilling to go where the majority of the German bishops are heading.
Now the long-feared and long-avoided post-conciliar catastrophe is at hand: schism. In the turmoil that often follows ecumenical councils, compounded by the social and cultural upheaval of the late 1960s, the challenge faced by St. Paul VI, St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI was to prevent schism. It was feared from the “progressive” side, given the passionate energies were boiling over. Through a series of skillful and courageous decisions, from Humanae Vitae and the Credo of the People of God, to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Veritatis Splendor, the helmsmen kept the Church united in the truth of Christ, throughout the tempests.

The only division was a minor one in terms of numbers, with the followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre moving into an irregular, but not schismatic, canonical situation. That situation has, in large part, been practically resolved with generous gestures on the part of both Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.
Meanwhile, the Germanic locus of progressive dissent has been patient, waiting perhaps for a pope from the “ends of the earth” whom they judged that they could manipulate and intimidate.
But Pope Francis is no fool. He knows the stakes and that his entire agenda and the legacy of his pontificate hangs in the balance. Should the schism come on his watch, his priorities of “synodality” and “discernment” will be thoroughly discredited in practice, even if they are not wholly responsible for the German mutiny. A pope who presides over schism is a failed pope before the judgment that every supreme pastor of the Church must face.
That’s why Pope Francis has made it abundantly clear that the German “Synodal Path” is unacceptable and must be abandoned as originally formulated. The Holy Father wrote a lengthy and blistering letter to the Church in Germany in June 2019, warning them that their path would end up “multiplying and nurturing the evils it wanted to overcome.”

Thereupon followed a letter from Cardinal Marc Ouellet, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, to the German bishops in September 2019, flatly stating the synod plans were not “ecclesiologically valid.” The Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts ruled at the same time that the alleged “binding nature” of the German project was a legal fantasy, as no one could give, much less had given, that authority to the “synodal path.”
A year later, with the Germans taking no heed whatsoever of the Holy Father’s objections, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, Cardinal Kurt Koch, revealed that the Holy Father had expressed grave concerns about the general direction of the Church in Germany.
Now the CDF has weighed in on the practice of blessing same-sex unions, already illicitly underway in some German parishes, and certainly to be one of the decisions of the “binding synodal path.”
Pope Francis has thus engaged the battle for Germany with considerable vigor. The managers of the German “Synodal Path” have treated his interventions with contempt and disdain, and wholly ignored his pleas for Catholic unity in doctrine and discipline. The ninth year of the Francis pontificate will be consumed by the consequences of that contumacy.

Good. The Pope made people to be mean to gays and nude people and zoosexuals. The Pope is a Blasphemer claiming to be Jesus with the big F Father identity. All need to reject the Pope.
 

zaangalewa

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
14,689
Reaction score
1,277
Points
140
Good. The Pope made people to be mean to gays and nude people and zoosexuals.

Where do you come from? From Arcturus IV?

The Pope is a Blasphemer claiming to be Jesus with the big F Father identity.

If you should not know, Muslim: All Christians believe in the triune god. And as far a I understand said Mohammed "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity". But we don't say so. We say "Allah the father is Allah" and we say "Christ the son is Allah" and we say "the Holy Spirit is Allah".

As far as I remember said Mohammed in another context the people who believe in the triune god God father, mother Mary and Jesus are not Christians - and in this case he was right. The triune god is God father, God son and the Holy Spirit.


All need to reject the Pope.

We reject the title "god" for our beloved Pope and you reject Mohammed and everyone is happy - what about this compromise?
 

Blackrook

Platinum Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
20,627
Reaction score
9,922
Points
940
The Pope should fire all the German bishops and find new ones.
 

zaangalewa

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
14,689
Reaction score
1,277
Points
140
The Pope should fire all the German bishops and find new ones.

Blackrook - you have absolutelly nothing to do with the Holy Church. Why for heavens sake do you try to convince the not-Catholics in the world that you are a Catholic? You are not even a Christian - or do you not read what a weird absurde nonsense - sometimes even brutal nonsense - you are writing in the name of the Christian religion?
 

Blackrook

Platinum Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
20,627
Reaction score
9,922
Points
940
Blackrook - you have absolutelly nothing to do with the Holy Church. Why for heavens sake do you try to convince the not-Catholics in the world that you are a Catholic? You are not even a Christian - or do you not read what a weird absurde nonsense - sometimes even brutal nonsense - you are writing in the name of the Christian religion?
You appointed you to be the guy who decides who's a Catholic and who's a Christian?
 

zaangalewa

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
14,689
Reaction score
1,277
Points
140
You appointed you to be the guy who decides who's a Catholic and who's a Christian?

Blackrook - you are a shame for all spirituality. Perhaps you should slowly start to accept that the world/the worlds is/are much more complex than your own two braincells tell each other.

 
Last edited:

USMB Server Goals

Total amount
$225.00
Goal
$350.00

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top