San Francisco Chronicle Exclusive: Captain of aircraft carrier with growing coronavirus outbreak pleads for help from Navy

[SavannahMann]

Joe Biden slams firing of Navy captain over leak of letter requesting his ship’s crew be taken off the ship to contain COVID-19 spread. "The poor judgment here belongs to the Trump Administration, not a courageous officer trying to protect his sailors.”

WTF cares...........I don't .............he broke the chain of command.........bye............You want Biden then elect him .............until then he isn't in charge of a damned thing.

That ship was sent to Guam........to deal with the situation the best they could do............Same as other ships.

OTHER SHIPS...........have had cases..........I haven't seen them going to the SAN FRAN CHRONICLE..........you have got to be kidding me............

If he felt this way so strongly..........you go to your ELECTED OFFICIALS from your state. Even then.........you have violated the Chain of Command.

He did use the chain of command and if they did something it would have been resolved at that time. But they didn't as this was something most military leaders are not able to deal with.

So he leaked a letter asking for help from his superiors , will I would suspect that this got their attention and they will help those guy serving their country. Yes he will probably be assigned a desk job but I bet he will sleep better at night that he went the extra mile and saved lives. I wonder what his crew thinks of him.

First. No one has confirmed that the Captain sent the letter to the media. Their complaint is that he sent it via an unsecure server.

Second. This is how his Sailors feel about him.



Third. Anyone want to place bets on who they will be voting against?

 

[basquebromance]

"For humanitarian reasons, the passengers from the two CoronaVirus stricken cruise ships have been given medical treatment and, when appropriate, allowed to disembark, under strict supervision. Very carefully done. People we’re dying & no other countries would allow them to dock! " - Trump

 

[basquebromance]

"BREAKING: Capt. Brett Crozier has himself been diagnosed with the Chinese virus. "

 

[basquebromance]

Acting Navy secretary apologizes amid uproar over leaked carrier speech

Thomas Modly had criticized the former captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who was fired after sounding the alarm about a coronavirus outbreak.

www.politico.com

 

[22lcidw]

Acting Navy secretary apologizes amid uproar over leaked carrier speech

Thomas Modly had criticized the former captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who was fired after sounding the alarm about a coronavirus outbreak.

www.politico.com

This is not the era of Captain Bligh. But there is a Chain of Command. This could have been handled quietly. Or someone wanted to make a name for themselves. President Obama put to much of an infection in the military. Now a smaller percentage is gung ho.

 

[SavannahMann]

Acting Navy secretary apologizes amid uproar over leaked carrier speech

Thomas Modly had criticized the former captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who was fired after sounding the alarm about a coronavirus outbreak.

www.politico.com

This is not the era of Captain Bligh. But there is a Chain of Command. This could have been handled quietly. Or someone wanted to make a name for themselves. President Obama put to much of an infection in the military. Now a smaller percentage is gung ho.

Nonsense. It isn’t Obama. It isn’t anything so shallow or silly.

When I was assigned as a Team Leader for the first time in my Military Career I talked to my Father. He told me he was proud of me and then gave me advice that was worth its weight in Gold. He told me. Every once in a while look over your shoulder and make sure the Troops are still following you.

Like many lessons from my Dad this one took a while before I really understood it.

But let’s apply the lesson to the Roosevelt situation. Each of those sailors knows they can be injured or killed aboard the ship. A Steam Line can break and scale them to death in a handful of seconds. Fire. Electrical failure. And these dangers are everywhere. They are not limited to the flight deck. They assume this risk. They accept it. The reason is they believe that their lives and limbs will not be risked unnecessarily.

They trust the Chain of Command to risk lives as necessary. But they also expect that chain of command to mitigate those risks as much as possible. Loyalty up. Loyalty down. The troops expect that their Superiors will do what they are supposed to. They will insure that the troops get food and medical.

The sailors believe correctly that remaining on the ship with that plague running through the crew is dangerous. It would be one thing to do so while in combat operations. It would be another to do so while tied up at the dock. Necessary risk versus unnecessary.

The Acting Secretary of the Navy said he lost faith in the Captain. The Sailors of the Roosevelt and many other ships lost faith in him. The Sailors showed their feelings. The “disgraced“ Captain was cheered by them.

I think it is safe to say that the Sailors wouldn’t piss on the Secretary of the Navy if he was on fire. Personally as a former Sergeant in the Army I understand and do not blame them one damn bit.

 

[22lcidw]

Acting Navy secretary apologizes amid uproar over leaked carrier speech

Thomas Modly had criticized the former captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who was fired after sounding the alarm about a coronavirus outbreak.

www.politico.com

This is not the era of Captain Bligh. But there is a Chain of Command. This could have been handled quietly. Or someone wanted to make a name for themselves. President Obama put to much of an infection in the military. Now a smaller percentage is gung ho.

Nonsense. It isn’t Obama. It isn’t anything so shallow or silly.

When I was assigned as a Team Leader for the first time in my Military Career I talked to my Father. He told me he was proud of me and then gave me advice that was worth its weight in Gold. He told me. Every once in a while look over your shoulder and make sure the Troops are still following you.

Like many lessons from my Dad this one took a while before I really understood it.

But let’s apply the lesson to the Roosevelt situation. Each of those sailors knows they can be injured or killed aboard the ship. A Steam Line can break and scale them to death in a handful of seconds. Fire. Electrical failure. And these dangers are everywhere. They are not limited to the flight deck. They assume this risk. They accept it. The reason is they believe that their lives and limbs will not be risked unnecessarily.

They trust the Chain of Command to risk lives as necessary. But they also expect that chain of command to mitigate those risks as much as possible. Loyalty up. Loyalty down. The troops expect that their Superiors will do what they are supposed to. They will insure that the troops get food and medical.

The sailors believe correctly that remaining on the ship with that plague running through the crew is dangerous. It would be one thing to do so while in combat operations. It would be another to do so while tied up at the dock. Necessary risk versus unnecessary.

The Acting Secretary of the Navy said he lost faith in the Captain. The Sailors of the Roosevelt and many other ships lost faith in him. The Sailors showed their feelings. The “disgraced“ Captain was cheered by them.

I think it is safe to say that the Sailors wouldn’t piss on the Secretary of the Navy if he was on fire. Personally as a former Sergeant in the Army I understand and do not blame them one damn bit.

In Viet Nam and in other wars, the platoons at times killed their officers on patrol. Because they did not know what they were doing. This Captain may not have known what he was doing as a leader. A carrier is a big ship. Even with thousands of people. Areas could have been cordoned off and other temporary fixes. And the newspaper people who print this stuff. Destroy people. We get silence for powerful corrupted Prog politicians though. His career may be done because of that. Cheering for him is not a consolation prize. And i do understand the situation of a potential pandemic on a ship. I fully believe this could have been completely contained within the military without anyone knowing. We need to keep levels of warfare open. If we shutdown many of our ships and infantry battalions and everything compatible, we will move more quickly to WMD's in conflict. That is no good for all of us. And I do believe we are at a higher war footing today then in recent years because of this current issue.

 

[SavannahMann]

Acting Navy secretary apologizes amid uproar over leaked carrier speech

Thomas Modly had criticized the former captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who was fired after sounding the alarm about a coronavirus outbreak.

www.politico.com

This is not the era of Captain Bligh. But there is a Chain of Command. This could have been handled quietly. Or someone wanted to make a name for themselves. President Obama put to much of an infection in the military. Now a smaller percentage is gung ho.

Nonsense. It isn’t Obama. It isn’t anything so shallow or silly.

When I was assigned as a Team Leader for the first time in my Military Career I talked to my Father. He told me he was proud of me and then gave me advice that was worth its weight in Gold. He told me. Every once in a while look over your shoulder and make sure the Troops are still following you.

Like many lessons from my Dad this one took a while before I really understood it.

But let’s apply the lesson to the Roosevelt situation. Each of those sailors knows they can be injured or killed aboard the ship. A Steam Line can break and scale them to death in a handful of seconds. Fire. Electrical failure. And these dangers are everywhere. They are not limited to the flight deck. They assume this risk. They accept it. The reason is they believe that their lives and limbs will not be risked unnecessarily.

They trust the Chain of Command to risk lives as necessary. But they also expect that chain of command to mitigate those risks as much as possible. Loyalty up. Loyalty down. The troops expect that their Superiors will do what they are supposed to. They will insure that the troops get food and medical.

The sailors believe correctly that remaining on the ship with that plague running through the crew is dangerous. It would be one thing to do so while in combat operations. It would be another to do so while tied up at the dock. Necessary risk versus unnecessary.

The Acting Secretary of the Navy said he lost faith in the Captain. The Sailors of the Roosevelt and many other ships lost faith in him. The Sailors showed their feelings. The “disgraced“ Captain was cheered by them.

I think it is safe to say that the Sailors wouldn’t piss on the Secretary of the Navy if he was on fire. Personally as a former Sergeant in the Army I understand and do not blame them one damn bit.

In Viet Nam and in other wars, the platoons at times killed their officers on patrol. Because they did not know what they were doing. This Captain may not have known what he was doing as a leader. A carrier is a big ship. Even with thousands of people. Areas could have been cordoned off and other temporary fixes. And the newspaper people who print this stuff. Destroy people. We get silence for powerful corrupted Prog politicians though. His career may be done because of that. Cheering for him is not a consolation prize. And i do understand the situation of a potential pandemic on a ship. I fully believe this could have been completely contained within the military without anyone knowing. We need to keep levels of warfare open. If we shutdown many of our ships and infantry battalions and everything compatible, we will move more quickly to WMD's in conflict. That is no good for all of us. And I do believe we are at a higher war footing today then in recent years because of this current issue.

We have seen that attitude before. When the Sailors and Soldiers were exposed to Nuclear Fallout during the tests of the 1950’s. The Military leaders kept it from everyone. Those troops were not even told what happened to them. You consider these examples of what was done right. When I was in during Gulf War One we considered them lessons of what we should never do.

We do not face any greater threat today than we did two months ago. State actors like Iran are also focused inwards. They are fighting this Virus like the rest of the world. China is posturing. But China is not going to start a war. They can’t win and it would go WMD in a few hours even if nobody on the ship was sick. We can’t invade China with or without the Virus.

The Captain who knows a hell of a lot more about running a ship than you or I do believed IMO correctly that evacuating as many people as possible was the answer. That this same answer is what we are seeing from every ship afflicted is obviously a valid point in his favor.

Trump likes to point out that he has the support of the Military. That support can vanish like fog in the morning sun. All it will take is the troops to feel that they are being unnecessarily risked. Those troops will vote against the people who make petty and foolish decisions. The Secretary of the Navy could not look more Petty or Foolish if he had a script writer from the days of the Marx Brothers.

Traveling to Guam to shout at the sailors was petty and foolish. It showed how thin skinned he is. And I will bet anything you like the Sailors are mocking him. Not just on the Roosevelt. But on ships and bases around the world. The question is not if the Secretary of the Navy is fired. The question is how long will Trump wait? Because every hour he delays makes it worse for him in the eyes of the Military. It may well already be too late to salvage Trumps reputation with the troops.

At this point. Trump needs to look over his shoulder to see if anyone is following him. Nobody is following Moldy.

 

[basquebromance]

"BREAKING: Navy Sec Thomas Modly just submitted his resignation letter to Defense Sec Esper. Modly is the one who talked trash about hero Captain Crozier, who blew the whistle on coronavirus spreading on his ship. "

 

[SavannahMann]

Moldy was a fool. He is gone now. Sadly he did a lot of damage that will take years to fix before he left.

Moldy did not want reports in writing. The reason is that spoken words are deniable. Contrast Moldy to Churchill. Churchill told his Generals that if the order was not written down it was not given. A verbal order was not enough. It would be written so there would be no confusion or later claims of chicanery.

I have always approved of that attitude. Once written the concerns and advice of the Commander were on the record and if the crew got sick then the Bosses could not claim they were unaware of the threat. Moldy was angry that he could not shift the blame to another. It was on his desk and he did not react well under the pressure. Martinet’s rarely do.

 

[basquebromance]

BREAKING NEWS FROM THE WASHINGTON POST:

"A sailor with the USS Theodore Roosevelt has died in Guam of complications from the coronavirus, the Navy said Monday, marking the first death in a crew with at least 585 confirmed cases. The sailor had been placed in an intensive care unit last week after being found unresponsive by other service members. Thousands of sailors from the aircraft carrier, with a crew of about 4,800, have come ashore for testing and quarantining, in an outbreak that has placed the Navy under intense public scrutiny. The sailor’s identity was not immediately released by the Navy. It marks the first death of an active-duty service member in the pandemic, and the second overall in the US military. "

 

[eagle1462010]

UPDATED: Carrier Roosevelt Sailor Dies from COVID-19, 4 Sailors Hospitalized - USNI News

This post has been updated with additional information. A sailor assigned to USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) has died from complications of a COVID-19 infection and four more are hospitalized, the Navy said on Monday. “At approximately 8:30 a.m., Apr. 9, the Sailor was found unresponsive during...

news.usni.org

No news of his age yet.....but 1 of 585 is .0017% of those that tested positive.

Much better than other rates as most are not old with health conditions..........later we will probably find this out.

 

[22lcidw]

Acting Navy secretary apologizes amid uproar over leaked carrier speech

Thomas Modly had criticized the former captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who was fired after sounding the alarm about a coronavirus outbreak.

www.politico.com

This is not the era of Captain Bligh. But there is a Chain of Command. This could have been handled quietly. Or someone wanted to make a name for themselves. President Obama put to much of an infection in the military. Now a smaller percentage is gung ho.

Nonsense. It isn’t Obama. It isn’t anything so shallow or silly.

When I was assigned as a Team Leader for the first time in my Military Career I talked to my Father. He told me he was proud of me and then gave me advice that was worth its weight in Gold. He told me. Every once in a while look over your shoulder and make sure the Troops are still following you.

Like many lessons from my Dad this one took a while before I really understood it.

But let’s apply the lesson to the Roosevelt situation. Each of those sailors knows they can be injured or killed aboard the ship. A Steam Line can break and scale them to death in a handful of seconds. Fire. Electrical failure. And these dangers are everywhere. They are not limited to the flight deck. They assume this risk. They accept it. The reason is they believe that their lives and limbs will not be risked unnecessarily.

They trust the Chain of Command to risk lives as necessary. But they also expect that chain of command to mitigate those risks as much as possible. Loyalty up. Loyalty down. The troops expect that their Superiors will do what they are supposed to. They will insure that the troops get food and medical.

The sailors believe correctly that remaining on the ship with that plague running through the crew is dangerous. It would be one thing to do so while in combat operations. It would be another to do so while tied up at the dock. Necessary risk versus unnecessary.

The Acting Secretary of the Navy said he lost faith in the Captain. The Sailors of the Roosevelt and many other ships lost faith in him. The Sailors showed their feelings. The “disgraced“ Captain was cheered by them.

I think it is safe to say that the Sailors wouldn’t piss on the Secretary of the Navy if he was on fire. Personally as a former Sergeant in the Army I understand and do not blame them one damn bit.

In Viet Nam and in other wars, the platoons at times killed their officers on patrol. Because they did not know what they were doing. This Captain may not have known what he was doing as a leader. A carrier is a big ship. Even with thousands of people. Areas could have been cordoned off and other temporary fixes. And the newspaper people who print this stuff. Destroy people. We get silence for powerful corrupted Prog politicians though. His career may be done because of that. Cheering for him is not a consolation prize. And i do understand the situation of a potential pandemic on a ship. I fully believe this could have been completely contained within the military without anyone knowing. We need to keep levels of warfare open. If we shutdown many of our ships and infantry battalions and everything compatible, we will move more quickly to WMD's in conflict. That is no good for all of us. And I do believe we are at a higher war footing today then in recent years because of this current issue.

We have seen that attitude before. When the Sailors and Soldiers were exposed to Nuclear Fallout during the tests of the 1950’s. The Military leaders kept it from everyone. Those troops were not even told what happened to them. You consider these examples of what was done right. When I was in during Gulf War One we considered them lessons of what we should never do.

We do not face any greater threat today than we did two months ago. State actors like Iran are also focused inwards. They are fighting this Virus like the rest of the world. China is posturing. But China is not going to start a war. They can’t win and it would go WMD in a few hours even if nobody on the ship was sick. We can’t invade China with or without the Virus.

The Captain who knows a hell of a lot more about running a ship than you or I do believed IMO correctly that evacuating as many people as possible was the answer. That this same answer is what we are seeing from every ship afflicted is obviously a valid point in his favor.

Trump likes to point out that he has the support of the Military. That support can vanish like fog in the morning sun. All it will take is the troops to feel that they are being unnecessarily risked. Those troops will vote against the people who make petty and foolish decisions. The Secretary of the Navy could not look more Petty or Foolish if he had a script writer from the days of the Marx Brothers.

Traveling to Guam to shout at the sailors was petty and foolish. It showed how thin skinned he is. And I will bet anything you like the Sailors are mocking him. Not just on the Roosevelt. But on ships and bases around the world. The question is not if the Secretary of the Navy is fired. The question is how long will Trump wait? Because every hour he delays makes it worse for him in the eyes of the Military. It may well already be too late to salvage Trumps reputation with the troops.

At this point. Trump needs to look over his shoulder to see if anyone is following him. Nobody is following Moldy.

I do not consider wrongs to be right. I do consider a "chain of command" system important in the military. Some of the military ways with their own has been disgraceful. This man was the Captain of an Aircraft Carrier. No small feat. If he was from the Obama era I am a little leery. He should know better on how to communicate a concern. This is the kind of stuff that can get people killed for other reasons also. We are a volunteer force. Not drafted. Attitude is on they self first.

 

[SavannahMann]

Acting Navy secretary apologizes amid uproar over leaked carrier speech

Thomas Modly had criticized the former captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who was fired after sounding the alarm about a coronavirus outbreak.

www.politico.com

This is not the era of Captain Bligh. But there is a Chain of Command. This could have been handled quietly. Or someone wanted to make a name for themselves. President Obama put to much of an infection in the military. Now a smaller percentage is gung ho.

Nonsense. It isn’t Obama. It isn’t anything so shallow or silly.

When I was assigned as a Team Leader for the first time in my Military Career I talked to my Father. He told me he was proud of me and then gave me advice that was worth its weight in Gold. He told me. Every once in a while look over your shoulder and make sure the Troops are still following you.

Like many lessons from my Dad this one took a while before I really understood it.

But let’s apply the lesson to the Roosevelt situation. Each of those sailors knows they can be injured or killed aboard the ship. A Steam Line can break and scale them to death in a handful of seconds. Fire. Electrical failure. And these dangers are everywhere. They are not limited to the flight deck. They assume this risk. They accept it. The reason is they believe that their lives and limbs will not be risked unnecessarily.

They trust the Chain of Command to risk lives as necessary. But they also expect that chain of command to mitigate those risks as much as possible. Loyalty up. Loyalty down. The troops expect that their Superiors will do what they are supposed to. They will insure that the troops get food and medical.

The sailors believe correctly that remaining on the ship with that plague running through the crew is dangerous. It would be one thing to do so while in combat operations. It would be another to do so while tied up at the dock. Necessary risk versus unnecessary.

The Acting Secretary of the Navy said he lost faith in the Captain. The Sailors of the Roosevelt and many other ships lost faith in him. The Sailors showed their feelings. The “disgraced“ Captain was cheered by them.

I think it is safe to say that the Sailors wouldn’t piss on the Secretary of the Navy if he was on fire. Personally as a former Sergeant in the Army I understand and do not blame them one damn bit.

In Viet Nam and in other wars, the platoons at times killed their officers on patrol. Because they did not know what they were doing. This Captain may not have known what he was doing as a leader. A carrier is a big ship. Even with thousands of people. Areas could have been cordoned off and other temporary fixes. And the newspaper people who print this stuff. Destroy people. We get silence for powerful corrupted Prog politicians though. His career may be done because of that. Cheering for him is not a consolation prize. And i do understand the situation of a potential pandemic on a ship. I fully believe this could have been completely contained within the military without anyone knowing. We need to keep levels of warfare open. If we shutdown many of our ships and infantry battalions and everything compatible, we will move more quickly to WMD's in conflict. That is no good for all of us. And I do believe we are at a higher war footing today then in recent years because of this current issue.

We have seen that attitude before. When the Sailors and Soldiers were exposed to Nuclear Fallout during the tests of the 1950’s. The Military leaders kept it from everyone. Those troops were not even told what happened to them. You consider these examples of what was done right. When I was in during Gulf War One we considered them lessons of what we should never do.

We do not face any greater threat today than we did two months ago. State actors like Iran are also focused inwards. They are fighting this Virus like the rest of the world. China is posturing. But China is not going to start a war. They can’t win and it would go WMD in a few hours even if nobody on the ship was sick. We can’t invade China with or without the Virus.

The Captain who knows a hell of a lot more about running a ship than you or I do believed IMO correctly that evacuating as many people as possible was the answer. That this same answer is what we are seeing from every ship afflicted is obviously a valid point in his favor.

Trump likes to point out that he has the support of the Military. That support can vanish like fog in the morning sun. All it will take is the troops to feel that they are being unnecessarily risked. Those troops will vote against the people who make petty and foolish decisions. The Secretary of the Navy could not look more Petty or Foolish if he had a script writer from the days of the Marx Brothers.

Traveling to Guam to shout at the sailors was petty and foolish. It showed how thin skinned he is. And I will bet anything you like the Sailors are mocking him. Not just on the Roosevelt. But on ships and bases around the world. The question is not if the Secretary of the Navy is fired. The question is how long will Trump wait? Because every hour he delays makes it worse for him in the eyes of the Military. It may well already be too late to salvage Trumps reputation with the troops.

At this point. Trump needs to look over his shoulder to see if anyone is following him. Nobody is following Moldy.

I do not consider wrongs to be right. I do consider a "chain of command" system important in the military. Some of the military ways with their own has been disgraceful. This man was the Captain of an Aircraft Carrier. No small feat. If he was from the Obama era I am a little leery. He should know better on how to communicate a concern. This is the kind of stuff that can get people killed for other reasons also. We are a volunteer force. Not drafted. Attitude is on they self first.

The chain of command is not a single line extending from the President down to the lowliest enlisted. There are dozens of lines, crossing and joining at points until it looks like a spiderweb.

This is a true story. I read it in two books. The Submarine Halibut. The submarine was a prototype which was part of our early submarine launched missile program. It was the only submarine we made for the Regulus program. After that program was shut down, at the request of Naval Intelligence the boat was converted to the first dedicated spy submarine.

The missions were controlled by Naval Intelligence. As such, the chain of command was somewhat curtailed. The Direct Superiors had no knowledge of or control of mission assignments. Worse, the program offices were not allowed to know what the Submarine was doing. This resulted in failures recorded in Nuclear Safety, Admiral Rickover was notorious in his vindictiveness. The Captain and Officers were prohibited from informing their superiors what they were doing. When they came home with damage, they could not explain what happened. They were in the name of gathering intelligence committing technical acts of war including encroaching well within the territorial limits of the Soviet Union. This is the Submarine that put phone taps on underwater cables.

So by their chain of Command as a Submarine they answered to a Flotilla Commander. But they could not tell that Commander anything. He had no need to know.

The other consideration is rank. If a Lieutenant gives you an order, you have to obey it. Unless that order is countermanded by a higher ranking officer. Now, that all depends on Regulations. Illegal orders are of course, refused.

But let’s talk about the Carrier for a moment. I mentioned that Chain of Command looking like a Spider Web. That includes the Nuclear Safety Office. The one once ruled by Rickover. Also included are Flight Safety, Personnel Command, Medical Command, and a couple dozen other offices which have Regulatory oversight. What does that mean? Remember those regulations?

Regulations are Department of the Navy rules for service members. They are passed by the Military in compliance with Laws passed by Congress and signed by the President, the Commander in Chief. The Chain of Command can go no higher than the Commander in Chief. There is no one above that.

So those regulations are essentially orders from the Commander in Chief. Those orders can not be ignored. Take a look at the Regulations concerning Flight Safety. https://www.secnav.navy.mil/doni/Di...ht and Air Space Support Services/3750.6S.pdf

Notice one thing right away. The website is the Secretary of the Navy’s own.

Most of the first dozen pages are referencing other regulations, and how this one is to be obeyed in compliance with those other regulations. Offices, commands, and other departments are referenced. In other words, flight safety issues are not just reported to the single line Commander that you all imagine is the Chain of Command. But Shall, and Shall is a must perform action, be reported to the appropriate office.

SHALL is one of those Military Words that doesn’t mean the same in the civilian world. Shall means the Service Member has no choice. He must do this. He must do this or be in violation of regulations. Should means he really should do this, but if he doesn’t, he better have a damned good reason.

Failure to obey those regulations is a violation of orders, and is a career terminating event. So if the Captain did what you suggest he should have, reported issues just to his direct supervisor, the Task Force Commander, he would have been in violation of Regulations, and thus disobeyed the standing orders of the President.

Why would you expect any Servicemember from the lowliest enlisted to the highest ranking officer to violate regulations? That is exactly what you are saying when you say he should have not told anyone else, just the Task Force Commander. You are not saying you want Rogue officers who blindly do whatever the guy above them says do you?

Another Captain is in the news, another Naval Captain. He did not want to report an Engineering Casualty. That is what they call a break down of a ship. He said not to report the information to Higher Command. We do not know if the Captain ordered, or the Crew in an effort to carry out his orders turned off the position reporting equipment, and falsified the location information for verbal reports. But that Captain was wrong. He violated Regulations. He provided false information to his chain of command, and provided false information to several offices. That false information was either simple, not reporting the break down. Or complex, turning off the reporting equipment and providing false and misleading information on position.

That is not what Captain Crozier did. He complied with Regulations, and provided the information to the offices with oversight. He was fired for doing his job according to the book.

One final observation. Consider the situtation where nothing is supposed to be written down. Why would that be expected? The ship is required to maintain a log, of course, and all sorts of other reports to show when they did various things. But when reporting to superiors, the Captain is supposed to make reports verbally only?

The reason you don’t want things written down is so you can deny them later. You can claim that the Captain did not say this, or report that, or was not clear in his explanation. When the report is written, there can be no doubt what was said, and what importance the writer put on the issue.

Remember the complaint against Admiral Kimmel. He got the letter telling him it was a “War Warning” and history has castigated Admiral Kimmel for ignoring this clearly written instruction. War Warning had never been sent to him before, and he admitted he had never seen it before. But he did not react to it. Instead he complained that the information he was getting was not clear. How much more clear was it supposed to be? War Warning was not clear enough? Was Washington supposed to spell it out? The Japanese want you dead. They want your families dead. They will probably attack Americans somewhere soon. So start getting shit ready buddy. The Secretary of the Navy imagined that was what he had told Kimmel when he said War Warning.

 

[Mushroom]

Yeah it is a rumor but the obvious question is that Vietnam is a communist country and would a US warship make a port of call there

I don't know but if it does show how rumors are flying

We have been making port calls in Vietnam for over 2 decades now.

Heck, for over a decade now Vietnam has been trying to court the US into reopening their port facilities at Cam Ranh Bay. The 2 nations that have been most concerned over the recent belligerence of China have been the Philippines and Vietnam.

But ships of even a potential adversary making a port call is very common. I remember when in the 1980s a Soviet ship pulled into Long Beach for a 3 day port call.

 

[Mushroom]

He did use the chain of command and if they did something it would have been resolved at that time. But they didn't as this was something most military leaders are not able to deal with.

And this is the actual meat of the subject.

I have read the memo, it is easy enough to find online. And in short, it ws a 4 page whine, crying that not enough was being done, yet not a single suggestion or recommendation as to what should be done instead. And apparently he had been complaining like this for days prior, always without offering a single suggestion as to what should be done that was not already being done.

This is something that will end a career quick in the military. It is very much a "solution driven" organization. Constantly complaining without trying to actually resolve the issue is frowned down upon, and as the saying goes "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem".

This is why he was relieved. Now I would be one of the first to speak up if his memo contained things that should or could be done and were not being done. But there was none of that at all, simply his complaining that his Sailors were not being moved off fast enough, completely ignoring the fact that the available facilities on the base were filled within an hour, and they were scrambling to find other places to keep them all.

After all, this was a small base of less than 3,000 people. That suddenly had it's population increase by almost 100%, with no barracks to put them in. The base knew that, which is why they had gotten permission form the Navy to put them into hotel rooms. Which raised an entirely new series of logistics.

Transportation to and from the hotels, food and supplies, medical care, it is not like the 5,000 sailors could just walk there, and they have been scattered all over the island.

He was offering no solutions, only causing more problems by basically saying the Navy and officials did not care and were not doing enough. Even though he could apparently not suggest a single thing which could have been done better.

And in the over 2 weeks since this broke, I have asked a single simple question of people that nobody has been able to answer. "What else could/should have been done, and was not being done?" Nobody has yet to answer that for some reason.

 

[Kilroy2]

He did use the chain of command and if they did something it would have been resolved at that time. But they didn't as this was something most military leaders are not able to deal with.

And this is the actual meat of the subject.

I have read the memo, it is easy enough to find online. And in short, it ws a 4 page whine, crying that not enough was being done, yet not a single suggestion or recommendation as to what should be done instead. And apparently he had been complaining like this for days prior, always without offering a single suggestion as to what should be done that was not already being done.

This is something that will end a career quick in the military. It is very much a "solution driven" organization. Constantly complaining without trying to actually resolve the issue is frowned down upon, and as the saying goes "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem".

This is why he was relieved. Now I would be one of the first to speak up if his memo contained things that should or could be done and were not being done. But there was none of that at all, simply his complaining that his Sailors were not being moved off fast enough, completely ignoring the fact that the available facilities on the base were filled within an hour, and they were scrambling to find other places to keep them all.

After all, this was a small base of less than 3,000 people. That suddenly had it's population increase by almost 100%, with no barracks to put them in. The base knew that, which is why they had gotten permission form the Navy to put them into hotel rooms. Which raised an entirely new series of logistics.

Transportation to and from the hotels, food and supplies, medical care, it is not like the 5,000 sailors could just walk there, and they have been scattered all over the island.

He was offering no solutions, only causing more problems by basically saying the Navy and officials did not care and were not doing enough. Even though he could apparently not suggest a single thing which could have been done better.

And in the over 2 weeks since this broke, I have asked a single simple question of people that nobody has been able to answer. "What else could/should have been done, and was not being done?" Nobody has yet to answer that for some reason.

It is a whiny comment by you is an opinion. I have not read any Dept of Navy comments as such. If there is please post a link. He was in a difficult situation. I can not going to arm chair quarter back it.

here are the facts

It was a send-off for the ages, with hundreds of sailors aboard the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt cheering Capt. Brett E. Crozier, the commander who sacrificed his naval career by writing a letter to his superiors demanding more help as the novel coronavirus spread through the ship.

Any commander would love such a support from people whom he commanded. In the end you can talk about rules and regulations but what show character is the support of those he commanded.

But in removing Captain Crozier from command, senior Navy officials said they were protecting the historic practice that complaints and requests have to go up a formal chain of command. They argued that by sending his concerns to 20 or 30 people in a message that eventually leaked to news organizations, Captain Crozier showed he was no longer fit to lead the fast-moving effort to treat the crew and clean the ship.

This is the official navy reason why he was relieved of command.

The cheering by the sailors is the most public repudiation of military practices to battle the virus since the pandemic began

In a circuitous explanation, Thomas B. Modly, the acting Navy secretary, said that Captain Crozier’s immediate superior did not know that the captain was going to write the letter, offering that act as an error in leadership and one of the reasons the Navy had lost confidence in the Roosevelt captain.

Okay sounds plausible but in reality we are lead to believe that the captain failed to notify his commander. I would find that hard to believe as he would have to be an idiot. Something smells.

I can by into the notion that many in his chain of command did not want to touch this problem as they did not want to get the blame or a bad performance review which is a career killer for an officer in any service.

"What else could/should have been done, and was not being done?" Nobody has yet to answer that for some reason.

My question is why would the navy commander feel that nothing was being done? Now this is the chain of command and unless the Navy is transparent in this situation, we may never know.

Why would someone presumable in the Navy leak this story?

Why would the Navy reliever him because someone else leaked the story.?

It sounds like a cover up to me by the higher echelon and the Captain who was at the bottom got the blame. Whereas we have no one else in the chain of command blamed.

Why because the Navy taking the Trump lead minimized the risk and did not believe it to be a problem. Shit flows down hill.

Bottom line - Adm. Michael Gilday has indicated that he may reinstate Captain Crozier. Change of heart by the command or maybe he knows something that we do not know.

Whiny no, standing up for one principle in the face of following orders. that's not whiny, it shows character.

quoting regulation and the book is passing the buck

To answer your question with a question - Why did the acting Navy secretary step down?

Indicates to me that all that could have been done was not done.

 

[Kilroy2]

Yeah it is a rumor but the obvious question is that Vietnam is a communist country and would a US warship make a port of call there

I don't know but if it does show how rumors are flying

We have been making port calls in Vietnam for over 2 decades now.

Heck, for over a decade now Vietnam has been trying to court the US into reopening their port facilities at Cam Ranh Bay. The 2 nations that have been most concerned over the recent belligerence of China have been the Philippines and Vietnam.

But ships of even a potential adversary making a port call is very common. I remember when in the 1980s a Soviet ship pulled into Long Beach for a 3 day port call.

Well on the surface, it is a communist nation so just on that alone I did not see why they would. But I did find articles where this was the 2nd ship to make a port of call.

But it appears your right that they have been doing this for a while.

I guess the US wants to send a message to the Chinese and the Vietnam welcomes the flex of muscle as they (Vietnam) are obvious no match for the Chinese.

Still side note the Roosevelt was there based on a Trump recommendation made for it to make a visit.

My how 45 years has mellowed everyone out. My enemy is being nice to me.

 

[Mushroom]

Okay sounds plausible but in reality we are lead to believe that the captain failed to notify his commander. I would find that hard to believe as he would have to be an idiot. Something smells.

Nobody is saying he failed to notify them. Hell, his immediate boss was on the exact same ship with him.

"Going around your chain of command" has nothing to do with not telling your chain, but by going above your chain without approval or at least notification beforehand. It is kind of what we know of in the military as the "Open Door Policy". Even the lowest Private in a unit is allowed to go up to the Division Commander if they think issues are not being addressed properly. And nobody above their chain can tell them not to.

However, they do have to notify their chain that they are going to do so. Simply saying "Sir/Ma'am, I am going to go talk to the Company/Battalion/Regimental/Brigade/Division Commander". They do not even have to say what they are going to talk about, just that they are going to do it.

That is what "Jumping the chain" is. And notice, as I had already said, the memo did not have a single item to say what exactly was not being done to his satisfaction, or more importantly what could have been done to do things better. It was a 4 page complaint, with not a single suggestion of what should be done instead.

That is the problem with his memo.

I can by into the notion that many in his chain of command did not want to touch this problem as they did not want to get the blame or a bad performance review which is a career killer for an officer in any service.

OK, so let's ignore that his immediate supervisor was serving on the exact same ship as he was, and had his offices and stateroom a single flight of stairs below his own.

You are aware of that fact, right? That Captain Crozier was the commander of the Flagship of Carrier Strike Group 9. And the person in charge of that Strike Group is Rear Admiral Stuart Baker. Who as I said had his working and living spaces a 2 minute walk away from that of the Captain's.

And let me charge you once again with what I have been saying over and over again. What could the Navy have done differently? Look., it is so very easy to whine and gripe and complain, it is so very difficult to actually suggest things that would actually improve the situation.

The memo did nothing other than complain, screaming how the Navy was not doing enough. OK, fine. you are now in command of the US Naval Base in Guam, or the Chief of Naval Operations. So tell us, what would you have done that would have resolved this situation?

"What else could/should have been done, and was not being done?" Nobody has yet to answer that for some reason.

This is what I find lacking, even almost a month later. I have made this exact same challenge over and over, and not a single person has ever given a single answer. Just said over and over "not enough was done".

You are throwing out silly claims, which have not a shred of reality. Meanwhile have not shown where exactly things were not being done.

Why would someone presumable in the Navy leak this story?

One of 2 things comes to mind.

First (and primary), it was not somebody in the Navy at all. He sent this out as a "General blast" as we would say, with over 30 recipients. Kinda like those mass emails of the past. And since it was over an unsecured system (NIPR), that allowed anybody to simply "copy and paste" it to anybody else on the Internet.

For one, this was the wrong place to post something with operational information, it should have been transmitted over SIPR, which is the secure system. So there is dick-up number 1. Then you have his whining not enough was being done, but not a single suggestion as to where things could have been improved, that is dick-up number 2.

I bet somebody in the chain did a forward, and they then forwarded it to somebody else, likely in an FRG group. Then that is what went to the press. If I had sent something like this myself, I can guarantee that I would shortly have been visited by CID, and escorted to the US in handcuffs. When I was on deployment I dealt with classified information on a daily basis. Simply by sending this through non-secure systems was criminal in and of itself.

Why would the Navy reliever him because someone else leaked the story.?

Read the above very carefully.

I have read this memo myself, and there is absolutely nothing in it that indicates it is sent through secure (classified) channels. But it should have been, anything that deals with operational status of active units is classified as "Secret" at a minimum, if not "Top Secret" (or higher). The very fact that this was sent unclassified (NIPR - in other words the "regular Internet") shows that a huge mistake in classification was made.

Just to give an idea of my background, I am still active in the military. And I am also in my final 5 years of service (I will reach mandatory retirement before the end of 2024). I have also served under 6 Presidents now. I have had many jobs during my career, and one thing I take dead seriously is security and classification. I also understand how things were done in the past (all classified materials literally locked in a vault which had an armed guard inside of it), and how they are done now (where amazing things are available on the secured systems if you have the authority to access it). That is how SPC Manning did what he did, having access to SIPR he basically had access to all of SIPR that was not "Special Clearance" required.

This should never have been sent "in the clear", and absolutely nothing on the memo shows that it was sent over secured channels. That very act alone irregardless of the content has had people relieved and put in the brig. In short, he would be relieved because he sent it in a way where it could be leaked.

And in case I need to give a bit more background, the communication system of the military is broken down into 2 sections. NIPR or "NIPRNet" is "Non-Classified Internet Protocol Routing Network", In other words, routine non-classified information that literally is sent across the regular Internet. SIPR or "SIPRNet" (Secure Internet Protocol Routing Network) is also sent across "The Internet", but it is highly encrypted, and has rather distinctive headers and footers. A 3 second glance at this memo told me it was sent NIPR, which is a problem in and of itself. You can access the Net freely through any NIPR computer. Hell, I used to post to this very forum through my NIPR system when I was deployed.

But SIPR? Nope, it is a cut-off closed system. The only way you can copy this memo from one to the other would involve doing a slew of things not allowed, like burning a copy to a CD and moving it manually to the NIPR side. The very action of doing so can result in the person sharing the cell next to Mr. Manning for a very long time.

 

[Kilroy2]

Well I have served in the military and I am just as familiar with the military as the next person. Now I was not in the navy.

Still you seem to expect that being in the middle of the ocean XXX miles away from home and confronted with a disease that is very contagious could be easily solved by the captain of the ship. I do not have to be an expert but I would suspect the ship is a very closed environment below bridge. People live in close quarters. The nature of the disease is that it spreads easily and other can catch it. They may not even show any symptoms but still spread it. The ship was out in the middle of the ocean. Now maybe the Navy was unprepared for such an event. It still was a serious situation that was not addressed. He set the message and it should have been passed up the chain to those who can remedy the situation. If you say that the this admiral was 2 doors then how can you say that he was never notified.

Quote - "Going around your chain of command" has nothing to do with not telling your chain, but by going above your chain without approval or at least notification beforehand. OK, so let's ignore that his immediate supervisor was serving on the exact same ship as he was, and had his offices and stateroom a single flight of stairs below his own.

How would anybody believe then that he was unaware of the situation. Are you saying the captain didn't go these two doors down and tell him. You find that plausible?

Sorry I do not buy that. It seems to me that you are to wrapped up in military protocol to set back and see the bigger picture or the rest of the story.

Still your main complaint is that captain did not suggest anything. Well what could he suggest.This is a military organization driven by a chain of command with strict guidelines. All he could ask for is a change of orders to address this issue instead of whatever orders they were under to cruise the ocean. It would have to come from his chain of command. This is not wartime and when snap decision may have to be made. HE requested guidance to do something else than what was previous assigned. If you say his boss was two doors down then his boss knew what was going on. I would even suspect that this captain told him. Yes I am giving him the benefit of doubt as he in the military. Still there was no response from his superiors.

They were confronted with a situation that they were unprepared for and that included everyone and to blame the man at the bottom of this totem pole is ludicrous . As I could seem them scratching their heads on this one. This was a new disease that people where still trying to formulate "what the fuck is going on here"

Still the obvious solution was containment by whatever means. Testing if they even had the ability to test the people on this ship and I doubt that they did. Ship doctor yeah they are sick. But 2 weeks later he was still floating around in the ocean.

So you say this guy offer no solutions but I do not see anybody in the Navy command structure offering any solutions even this guy 2 doors down.

Still lets get to my question that you did not answer

why his crew gave him a supportive show of appreciation when he left the ship. As a military guy are you not proud that people under his command show such admiration. Yet you have nothing to say because you believe it should have done it differently

Second why did the acting navy head resign over this drama ?

Third why are they reconsidering reinstatement ?

well I understand where your coming from but there is another side of this story that stinks

You accept this official statement by the navy that he was relieved because he should have known better than to send this to multiple sources. Well I would suspect when he first became aware of the situation on his boat that he followed orders. But when no response or solution was offered by the hierarchy he then probably used other methods to get the message out. As he was looking out for his men. This was an embarrassment for the Navy command. Heads will roll..