Roger Williams Builds His Wall of Separation Between Church and State

[Hawk1981]

Roger Williams was an ordained minister who came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1631 from England. His original intention was to be a missionary to the American native peoples. Williams had a natural charisma. He liked people and established friendships with the natives. Having a gift for languages he learned the prevalent language in the area, Algonquilian. Through his friendships Williams also learned that the primary discourse between settlers and Native Americans was not the teaching of Christianity, but the dispossession of native lands and hunting preserves, usually by robbery.

Sources:
Conley, Patrick T. Rhode Island’s Founders: From Settlement to Statehood, The History Press, 2010.
Roger Williams Biography

 

[Auld Phart]

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Thread edited

 

[progressive hunter]

Roger Williams was an ordained minister who came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1631 from England. His original intention was to be a missionary to the American native peoples. Williams had a natural charisma. He liked people and established friendships with the natives. Having a gift for languages he learned the prevalent language in the area, Algonquilian. Through his friendships Williams also learned that the primary discourse between settlers and Native Americans was not the teaching of Christianity, but the dispossession of native lands and hunting preserves, usually by robbery.

Sources:
Conley, Patrick T. Rhode Island’s Founders: From Settlement to Statehood, The History Press, 2010.
Roger Williams Biography

there is no such thing as separation between church and state,,,

 

[HenryBHough]

Nice fella, Roger. So many things in Rhode Island are named in his honor. Notably the zoo (Roger Williams Park). His most famous quote (in Rhode Island): "What cheer, Netop!"

Seriously. Now we'll smoke out anybody who actually lives (not merely exists) in Rhode Island!

You non-Rhode Islanders, if you doubt the acclaim shown those words check out the number of businesses and streets with names like Whatcheer and What Cheer.

The zoo is pretty nice, too.

 

[Lysistrata]

Roger Williams was an ordained minister who came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1631 from England. His original intention was to be a missionary to the American native peoples. Williams had a natural charisma. He liked people and established friendships with the natives. Having a gift for languages he learned the prevalent language in the area, Algonquilian. Through his friendships Williams also learned that the primary discourse between settlers and Native Americans was not the teaching of Christianity, but the dispossession of native lands and hunting preserves, usually by robbery.

Sources:
Conley, Patrick T. Rhode Island’s Founders: From Settlement to Statehood, The History Press, 2010.
Roger Williams Biography

there is no such thing as separation between church and state,,,

Of course there is. There are many religions, and even within Christianity, there is no single organization that could be used to define "church."

 

[Picaro]

Oh noes!!! Evul White Eyes Steal Land From Helpless Hobbit-Like Hippie Savages!!! See The Movie!!!

 

[whitehall]

British missionary Williams aside, there is no separation of Church and state to be found in the Constitution.

 

[Lysistrata]

British missionary Williams aside, there is no separation of Church and state to be found in the Constitution.

It is implied in the anti-establishment clause. Moreover there is no single "church" among Christians, and there are other religions other than Christianity. Moreover, the free-exercise clause would and should prohibit government from establishing a single sectarian belief, as people are free to choose whatever beliefs they wish, or they should be, free of imposition of beliefs by government.

 

[Auld Phart]

British missionary Williams aside, there is no separation of Church and state to be found in the Constitution.

It is implied in the anti-establishment clause. Moreover there is no single "church" among Christians, and there are other religions other than Christianity. Moreover, the free-exercise clause would and should prohibit government from establishing a single sectarian belief, as people are free to choose whatever beliefs they wish, or they should be, free of imposition of beliefs by government.

It is implied

Ohhhh, it's 'implied...'

but, it doesn't really say it, does it?

 

[Lysistrata]

British missionary Williams aside, there is no separation of Church and state to be found in the Constitution.

It is implied in the anti-establishment clause. Moreover there is no single "church" among Christians, and there are other religions other than Christianity. Moreover, the free-exercise clause would and should prohibit government from establishing a single sectarian belief, as people are free to choose whatever beliefs they wish, or they should be, free of imposition of beliefs by government.

It is implied

Ohhhh, it's 'implied...'

but, it doesn't really say it, does it?

Read Griswald and its progeny. You seem to favor government imposition of sectarian belief, in violation of the First Amendment. Remember, even in Christianity alone there is no "church," only various sects.

 

[Auld Phart]

British missionary Williams aside, there is no separation of Church and state to be found in the Constitution.

It is implied in the anti-establishment clause. Moreover there is no single "church" among Christians, and there are other religions other than Christianity. Moreover, the free-exercise clause would and should prohibit government from establishing a single sectarian belief, as people are free to choose whatever beliefs they wish, or they should be, free of imposition of beliefs by government.

It is implied

Ohhhh, it's 'implied...'

but, it doesn't really say it, does it?

Read Griswald and its progeny. You seem to favor government imposition of sectarian belief, in violation of the First Amendment. Remember, even in Christianity alone there is no "church," only various sects.

You seem to favor government imposition of sectarian belief,

I do?

First I've heard of it.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

and yet, for decades, we had prayer in school, we don't start proceedings in the House or Senate without a prayer.

But, mention having a prayer in school, at the beginning of a sports event, or graduation, or whatever, you silly jerks start screaming "Freedom of Religion".

Key word is ESTABLISHMENT.

and with the exception of a few nuts, no one is trying to 'establish' a religion at a sporting event, or a graduation.

You want 'Separation of Church and State'?

Petition your representatives to remove the Chaplains from the House and Senate.

When I see that come to the floor, and get a decent vote result, I'll take you and your ilk more seriously.

 

[Hawk1981]

Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of men affiliated with the Danbury Baptists Association of Connecticut assuring them that they did not have to fear government interference with their religious liberty. In this letter he stated that religion was “a matter which lies solely between Man & his God,” and that government should not have any influence over opinions. Therefore, he asserted: “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

Jefferson's concept of "separation of church and state" first became a part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Reynolds v United States. A US Supreme Court case in 1878 that held that religious duty was not a defense to a criminal indictment.

The Court recognized that under the First Amendment, Congress could pass a law that prohibited the free exercise of religion. However it held that the law prohibiting bigamy did not meet that standard.

Citing the letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in which he wrote that there was a distinction between religious belief and action that flowed from religious belief. The Court believed the First Amendment forbade Congress from legislating against opinion, but allowed it to legislate against the action of polygamy because "to permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land."

 

[Picaro]

Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of men affiliated with the Danbury Baptists Association of Connecticut assuring them that they did not have to fear government interference with their religious liberty. In this letter he stated that religion was “a matter which lies solely between Man & his God,” and that government should not have any influence over opinions. Therefore, he asserted: “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

Jefferson's concept of "separation of church and state" first became a part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Reynolds v United States. A US Supreme Court case in 1878 that held that religious duty was not a defense to a criminal indictment.

The Court recognized that under the First Amendment, Congress could pass a law that prohibited the free exercise of religion. However it held that the law prohibiting bigamy did not meet that standard.

Citing the letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in which he wrote that there was a distinction between religious belief and action that flowed from religious belief. The Court believed the First Amendment forbade Congress from legislating against opinion, but allowed it to legislate against the action of polygamy because "to permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land."

And as is clear the clause only prohibited the Federal govt from establishing a favored sect, and it clearly did not apply to the individual states. And besides, Jefferson was not our dictator, he was just one Founder among many others, and his opinions were entirely his own and not the law of the land. We can find many more Founders that disagreed with him, he was outnumbered, as is clearly shown by the nubmers of states that did have favored sects, some even empowered by state law to collect taxes for purposes like schools and other expenditures.

The reason for his letter was because it was the Baptists who invented the concept in the first place, it's one of their three main platforms as a sect. See a biography of Thomas Helwys for the origins of it. The Baptists, along with the Methodists and Presbyterians, were the three main sects of evangelicals who made up the First And Second " Great Awakenings', and were the demographic that Jefferson owed his election wins to as VP and then President.