Religion and Ethics

[schmidlap]

... The soul purpose of the Constitution is to define the LIMITS OF GOVERNMENT. Nothing more.

The U.S. Constitution has multiple purposes.

It establishes the basic rights of all American citizens and provides direction on how the government should work. The Constitution also provides the framework for law and order and describes the roles of the government's federal judiciary branch, legislative branch, and executive branch.

[What Is the Purpose of the Constitution?]

Under the Constitution, the powers of the Government are limited by the Bill of Rights.

“... the Government of the United States of America is not,
in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
Treaty of Tripoli, 1796​

 

[emilynghiem]

For one, it was the Baptists who invented 'seperation of church and state', and the clause is in our Constitution

No it isnt.

Yes, the establishment clause is very much in our constitution. It's hard to miss.

Then you dont understand it.

The term separation of church and state is NOT in the Constitution.

The soul purpose of the Constitution is to define the LIMITS OF GOVERNMENT. Nothing more.

DudleySmith
IS referring to the same First Amendment/establishment clause by calling it by the liberal term "separation of church and state"

Liberals also refer to the "substantive due process" protections from Roe V Wade by their own terms, citing this as the "right to privacy" or "freedom of choice" which Libertarians call "individual liberty" "due process" or "rights reserved to people."

Death Angel
Where I disagreed, DudleySmith
went too far with govt defense of religious free exercise and seemed to imply Govt could "endorse" Christianity.

This is different from just protecting individuals from being barred or penalized for practicing or expressing their beliefs.

I argued that Govt can NEITHER establish or prohibit free exercise of religion or beliefs.

So this is why I argue it is Discrimination by Creed to abuse Govt to establish LGBT faith based beliefs, Liberal Statist beliefs, political beliefs in Right to Health Care through Federal Govt, by the same principles that bar Govt from establishing Christian beliefs, Right to Life laws that discriminate against women by not holding men equally responsible for unwanted pregnancy or sex, etc.

Do you believe the First Amendment religious freedom clause, the Civil Rights laws against Discrimination by Creed, and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act requiring Govt to ensure the "least restrictive means" of meeting Govt objective or compelling interest are enough to stop the imposition of Political Beliefs through Govt?

Or do we need a Constitutional agreement between States or Parties to resolve issues of Political Beliefs?

Are our existing laws enough. Or do we need an Amendment on Consent of the Governed, or a council system between party representatives to mediate conflicts over political beliefs, address issues of taxation and representation, and restitution or credits reimbursed for corporate or political abuses of govt to cover the costs of corrections and reforms?

We know we have two denominations of beliefs about Govt roles and duties: Liberal Statist beliefs in taxing and spending through central govt to mandate and manage general welfare collectively for all people, and Conservative Libertarian beliefs in limited govt and rights of people.

How do we ensure equal protection of the laws from discrimination by creed causing unequal taxation without equal representation?

 

[Donald H]

In fact it's getting so bad now that the entire forum should be moved to zone one.

As to the question on religion, the title of the post should provide a guideline to moderators as to the comments being acceptable for discussion.

If a member is more intent on picking a fight as opposed to rational debate then it will be fairly obvious.

However, relligious believers must be able to accept reasonable criticism of their beliefs as long as it's stated in an acceptable manner.

I'll repeat though, this is nothing different than a standard the entire forum shouldn't be held.

 

[presonorek]

Is there a possibility of moving Religious and Ethics to Zone one?

I'm tired of chasing down trolls that only want to bash religion.

sure. Why not?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

accept reasonable criticism of their beliefs as long as it's stated in an acceptable manner

I dont think ANYONE is criticizing reasonable debate when it is ON TOPIC.

If someone starts a thread about which day is the Christian Sabbath, and 3 or 4 ATHEISTS do their usual flying spagetti monster, or Sky Fairy nonsense, their TROLLING post should be deleted by the decent mods and if it continues, they deserve to lose their trolling privileges.

This ain't that hard. The problem is the mods seem to treat that forum as if it were the Flame Zone

 

[Am3rikan-Warri0r]

Is there a possibility of moving Religious and Ethics to Zone one?

I'm tired of chasing down trolls that only want to bash religion.

I understand your feeling my friend. I don't understand why so many people who aren't religious seem to enjoy bashing those who have faith.

 

[emilynghiem]

Is there a possibility of moving Religious and Ethics to Zone one?

I'm tired of chasing down trolls that only want to bash religion.

I understand your feeling my friend. I don't understand why so many people who aren't religious seem to enjoy bashing those who have faith.

Karmic bashlash from the opposite.

In the past, Christians and other religious groups have based nonchristian beliefs and practices.

Now the ball is in the other court.
The pendulum has swung the other way.

Suddenly the "equal and opposite " reactions go to extreme with the LGBT communities attacking the rightwing and Christians.

The same way Christians have been incited to attack Liberal secular views.

 

[Gracie]

If I went into, let's say The Garage forum, and told everyone there discussing their cars they were idiots for owning one, would that be ok?

How about The Coffee Shop...posting they are morons for destroying their bodies with a bean? That ok too?

If not..then why is the Religion Forum exempt from common courtesty to NOT derail with rudeness?

 

[BULLDOG]

If I went into, let's say The Garage forum, and told everyone there discussing their cars they were idiots for owning one, would that be ok?

How about The Coffee Shop...posting they are morons for destroying their bodies with a bean? That ok too?

If not..then why is the Religion Forum exempt from common courtesty to NOT derail with rudeness?

If you claimed a particular type coffee could miraculously cure cancer or was the only way to avoid eternal torment, I'm pretty sure people would question that too.

 

[emilynghiem]

If I went into, let's say The Garage forum, and told everyone there discussing their cars they were idiots for owning one, would that be ok?

How about The Coffee Shop...posting they are morons for destroying their bodies with a bean? That ok too?

If not..then why is the Religion Forum exempt from common courtesty to NOT derail with rudeness?

If you claimed a particular type coffee could miraculously cure cancer or was the only way to avoid eternal torment, I'm pretty sure people would question that too.

Dear BULLDOG
The issue isn't the claim but attacking people for not taking it on faith without proof. I agree it isn't fair or logical to judge anyone without proof.

However it has been and can be proven that FORGIVENESS has the effect of
* breaking through the cycle of RETRIBUTION that causes "endless suffering and conflict"
* opening the channels between mind and body to FACILITATE natural healing

Yes, some people HAVE experienced healing beyond what doctors could explain. Two of my friends who are NOT Christian agreed to the spiritual healing prayer and both got better results that amazed their doctors.

This does happen but is NOT a reason to either bash skeptics who haven't seen proof yet, or bash believers who have seen proof.

It is a Natural process because the mind/body are designed to self heal.
The spiritual healing prayer and counseling works by identifying and removing obstacles blocking the natural healing process. Forgiveness is the key to removing these blocks.

No reason to judge anyone, just because some people have seen proof how this works, some have not, and some have no idea that this is even a real thing, much less a natural and voluntary process, until they either experience or witness it.

 

[Ziggy]

Is there a possibility of moving Religious and Ethics to Zone one?

I'm tired of chasing down trolls that only want to bash religion.

You worried about the streets coming to you?
They should be worried about you going to the streets.
Let your light so shine and all that.
Something about not hiding under a bushel.
Your gonna get some heat.
That's how you learn.
That's how you learn to wear that armour.
You don't need armour in a closet.
You need it when you need to stand your ground.

I don't know what zone 1 is.
But there's a whole forum here to practice your skills.

Just my 2 cents
Hugs

 

[BULLDOG]

If I went into, let's say The Garage forum, and told everyone there discussing their cars they were idiots for owning one, would that be ok?

How about The Coffee Shop...posting they are morons for destroying their bodies with a bean? That ok too?

If not..then why is the Religion Forum exempt from common courtesty to NOT derail with rudeness?

If you claimed a particular type coffee could miraculously cure cancer or was the only way to avoid eternal torment, I'm pretty sure people would question that too.

Dear BULLDOG
The issue isn't the claim but attacking people for not taking it on faith without proof. I agree it isn't fair or logical to judge anyone without proof.

However it has been and can be proven that FORGIVENESS has the effect of
* breaking through the cycle of RETRIBUTION that causes "endless suffering and conflict"
* opening the channels between mind and body to FACILITATE natural healing

Yes, some people HAVE experienced healing beyond what doctors could explain. Two of my friends who are NOT Christian agreed to the spiritual healing prayer and both got better results that amazed their doctors.

This does happen but is NOT a reason to either bash skeptics who haven't seen proof yet, or bash believers who have seen proof.

It is a Natural process because the mind/body are designed to self heal.
The spiritual healing prayer and counseling works by identifying and removing obstacles blocking the natural healing process. Forgiveness is the key to removing these blocks.

No reason to judge anyone, just because some people have seen proof how this works, some have not, and some have no idea that this is even a real thing, much less a natural and voluntary process, until they either experience or witness it.

And healing beyond what doctors could explain has never happened to anybody that wasn't a Christian, and the concept of forgiveness is only possible in a religious framework, right? People who worship a tree stump could just as sincerely claim those same two examples you just claimed your religious belief supplies. Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The dickheads who troll the religion forum troll pretty much any other forum they enter.

They do it because they are dickheads.

 

[Ziggy]

Do all the religious people only post in the religious forum then?
No doubt they feel the same about us LOL
It takes all kinds to make the world go round

Hugs

 

[Road Runner]

Do all the religious people only post in the religious forum then?
No doubt they feel the same about us LOL
It takes all kinds to make the world go round

Hugs

Well, I still make my beliefs known other places, but I think that's the major spot where Christians post. Apparently this problem of religion bashing has been happening even before we got here though as the OP was posted back in April. I'm sick and tired of people saying that I'm not a Christian either. Like, who gives them the right to tell me that? If they're not God, then they don't have any right to judge me.

 

[emilynghiem]

If I went into, let's say The Garage forum, and told everyone there discussing their cars they were idiots for owning one, would that be ok?

How about The Coffee Shop...posting they are morons for destroying their bodies with a bean? That ok too?

If not..then why is the Religion Forum exempt from common courtesty to NOT derail with rudeness?

If you claimed a particular type coffee could miraculously cure cancer or was the only way to avoid eternal torment, I'm pretty sure people would question that too.

Dear BULLDOG
The issue isn't the claim but attacking people for not taking it on faith without proof. I agree it isn't fair or logical to judge anyone without proof.

However it has been and can be proven that FORGIVENESS has the effect of
* breaking through the cycle of RETRIBUTION that causes "endless suffering and conflict"
* opening the channels between mind and body to FACILITATE natural healing

Yes, some people HAVE experienced healing beyond what doctors could explain. Two of my friends who are NOT Christian agreed to the spiritual healing prayer and both got better results that amazed their doctors.

This does happen but is NOT a reason to either bash skeptics who haven't seen proof yet, or bash believers who have seen proof.

It is a Natural process because the mind/body are designed to self heal.
The spiritual healing prayer and counseling works by identifying and removing obstacles blocking the natural healing process. Forgiveness is the key to removing these blocks.

No reason to judge anyone, just because some people have seen proof how this works, some have not, and some have no idea that this is even a real thing, much less a natural and voluntary process, until they either experience or witness it.

And healing beyond what doctors could explain has never happened to anybody that wasn't a Christian, and the concept of forgiveness is only possible in a religious framework, right? People who worship a tree stump could just as sincerely claim those same two examples you just claimed your religious belief supplies. Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion.

^ NOPE BULLDOG
I just told you TWO of my friends who benefited from the SAME healing are NOT Christian. This did not require or result in them becoming Christian.

Agreeing to forgive by praying in Christ Jesus authority does not require changing to some other culture.

It just involves agreement to FORGIVE on that higher level.

Scott Peck helped a patient to heal this way of severe schizophrenia. The patient ended up dropping their interest in religion and went into medical science, after seeing Dr. Peck use the scientific method to test a theory out, apply exorcism and deliverance therapy to see if it changed the patient's conditions, and observe and determine the negative symptoms were eliminated.

I know Buddhists, Muslims, Jewish, and even Atheists who have this spirit of forgiveness in Christ. It did not change them into Christians. In fact, my Atheist friend would teach free grace but refuse to make this about God or Jesus or religion. Just forgiveness to help humanity.

What Scott Peck called it was a sense of humility that people gain, or what I call voluntary compliance. Instead of resisting and rejecting in fear, that fear is removed and people receiving forgiveness and healing become receptive with faith in good and positive progress, not fear of change or negative things imposing or controlling.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Ziggy and Potterhead2021
There are more than one level of Christian faith.

1. When secular gentiles under natural laws of reason and science receive the spirit of forgiveness and liberating truth in Christ Jesus, these secular NONTHEIST thinkers may stay SECULAR and agree on concepts but not convert to Christian practice or culture. This is like learning to read (or speak) a second language, but not convert. I knew an Atheist who gave up Christianity but keot teaching free grace and forgiveness. He could totally tolerate and work with Christians, unless they refused to work with him. I am like bilingual (or trilingual) and still understand in secular terms while translating into Christian or even Constitutional terms. I can also understand translating into Buddhist terms, but more like reading and comprehending how real native Buddhists translate these concepts and quoting from them. I am not a native speaker so my translations depend on others.

2. When believers who are part of the fold compelled to follow Scriptural laws receive Christ, then these do work with given Christian language and culture in order to organize and collaborate among themselves in respective congregations.

I find that receiving Christ fulfills ANY path someone is on. It is rare that people totally abandon their native tongue or culture, because all our experiences and language are neurally networked and wired in our brains. We are conditioned to think and talk a certain way, whether nontheistic or theistic, liberal or conservative, individualistic or collective.

I see more often that people expand on their base foundation and ADD understanding of other cultures or languages to what we already use and know. Like adding a second language, not dropping one language and "converting" to another. That happens but is much less common.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Agreeing to forgive by praying in Christ Jesus authority does not require changing to some other culture.

It just involves agreement to FORGIVE on that higher level.

"by praying in Christ Jesus" -- what gibberish.
How about you simply accept that we all play on the same field to begin with. Secular does not mean lower "level." That's just your bigoted "Faith" talking. Forgiveness helps all period. Many resist it far too long, but there's no magic to it.

 

[Road Runner]

"by praying in Christ Jesus" -- what gibberish.
How about you simply accept that we all play on the same field to begin with. Secular does not mean lower "level." That's just your bigoted "Faith" talking. Forgiveness helps all period. Many resist it far too long, but there's no magic to it.

I actually agree with some of what you said but you could have worded that a bit nicer as she's my friend too.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I actually agree with some of what you said but you could have worded that a bit nicer as she's my friend too.

OMG, the peer pressure!.. Okay, I forgive you.