Redemption

[Luissa]

Ctrl-Z is my redemption!

Awesome reply! Don't have a comeback for that one - !

Sometimes don't you wish that Ctrl-Z worked in life?

Every day but if you un did one thing, don't you think it would have a ripple effect? That is why you should never regret anything.

 

[random3434]

Religious or not, can redemption be attained, and who redeems?

I am not a Christian (not that there is anything wrong with that *royalty check to Seinfeld*) but my personal opinion is this, you know when you have violated your own sense of personal worth, your reason for being, and then you yell out to God or the Universe, give me some grace, save me from myself.

That is either when grace comes or does not.

I do not know if it is from God or self, but redemption is what it is, take it any way you can get it.

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

 

[Gunny]

I'm a "Liberal" and a Christian.

Don't make judgements.

Your definition of liberal and mine aren't the same. To me, you're a leftwinger. I'm a liberal and always have been. People keep moving the lines.

I'm not making judgment. I asked a question to which I desire an honest answer. That's all.

 

[Polaris]

Ctrl-Z is my redemption!

Awesome reply! Don't have a comeback for that one - !

Sometimes don't you wish that Ctrl-Z worked in life?

"How to un-ring the bell - ? (It's just as well)..."

 

[JW Frogen]

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

Indeed, though I do not think the path to grace and redemption is not that striaght and narrow.

I want to keep drinking and be good. Drinking is not a transgression, it is an unhealthy vocation. Sort of like being a aid worker.

Work with me God.

 

[random3434]

I'm a "Liberal" and a Christian.

Don't make judgements.

Your definition of liberal and mine aren't the same. To me, you're a leftwinger. I'm a liberal and always have been. People keep moving the lines.

I'm not making judgment. I asked a question to which I desire an honest answer. That's all.

And people are answering in here, all of them good ones. But your first response to me was "don't make it political" which I didn't. You need to listen to what these people are saying, and maybe you'll find the answer you're looking for.

 

[Gunny]

Great thread, gunny. I am very curious what the wing nut righties believe redemption to be.

I am curious to see what everyone believes it to be. BTW .. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a staunchly Democratic family and most of the congregation was the same. What you need to work on is reconciliation. Your belief that Christianity is exclusively rightwing versus reality.

Nah, you got me wrong, gunny. The right wing may believe that it "is exclusively rightwing versus reality", I don't. One can be some form of Baptist or Mormon or Muslim or Hindu or nothing for all I know about how it applies to others. I do think redemption is personal between redeemer and redeemed, and I do believe it requires no intermediary, no church, no prophet, no priesthood, no sisterhood, nothing at all to facilitate that relationship.

Excellent response.

Assume there is a "redeemer" and there is a promise of redemption. What if you still don't believe you can be forgiven?

 

[xotoxi]

Religious or not, can redemption be attained, and who redeems?

I am not a Christian (not that there is anything wrong with that *royalty check to Seinfeld*) but my personal opinion is this, you know when you have violated your own sense of personal worth, your reason for being, and then you yell out to God or the Universe, give me some grace, save me from myself.

That is either when grace comes or does not.

I do not know if it is from God or self, but redemption is what it is, take it any way you can get it.

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

 

[Gunny]

Religious or not, can redemption be attained, and who redeems?

I am not a Christian (not that there is anything wrong with that *royalty check to Seinfeld*) but my personal opinion is this, you know when you have violated your own sense of personal worth, your reason for being, and then you yell out to God or the Universe, give me some grace, save me from myself.

That is either when grace comes or does not.

I do not know if it is from God or self, but redemption is what it is, take it any way you can get it.

What morality do we hold that is not man-made programming? And is ther really any grace?

 

[Gunny]

I'm a "Liberal" and a Christian.

Don't make judgements.

Your definition of liberal and mine aren't the same. To me, you're a leftwinger. I'm a liberal and always have been. People keep moving the lines.

I'm not making judgment. I asked a question to which I desire an honest answer. That's all.

And people are answering in here, all of them good ones. But your first response to me was "don't make it political" which I didn't. You need to listen to what these people are saying, and maybe you'll find the answer you're looking for.

Damn you are a pushy woman.

I AM listening. Even to you.

 

[random3434]

I am not a Christian (not that there is anything wrong with that *royalty check to Seinfeld*) but my personal opinion is this, you know when you have violated your own sense of personal worth, your reason for being, and then you yell out to God or the Universe, give me some grace, save me from myself.

That is either when grace comes or does not.

I do not know if it is from God or self, but redemption is what it is, take it any way you can get it.

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Exactly, of course you get it though.

Only YOU can redeem yourself.

Forgiveness comes from not only yourself, but others after that.

 

[Gunny]

I am not a Christian (not that there is anything wrong with that *royalty check to Seinfeld*) but my personal opinion is this, you know when you have violated your own sense of personal worth, your reason for being, and then you yell out to God or the Universe, give me some grace, save me from myself.

That is either when grace comes or does not.

I do not know if it is from God or self, but redemption is what it is, take it any way you can get it.

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Almost some points. I accept that and kudos to EZ.

However, what if one cannot forgive one's self? Is there STILL redemption?

 

[xotoxi]

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Exactly, of course you get it though.

Only THEY can redeem themselves.

I don't think that forgiveness and redemption go hand in hand.

One redeems themselves and then asks for forgiveness.

That other person judges that they have redeemed themselves and forgives them.

 

[xotoxi]

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Almost some points. I accept that and kudos to EZ.

However, what if one cannot forgive one's self? Is there STILL redemption?

Probably not...because someone who cannot forgive themselves judges themselves as a failure, which eliminates the likelihood that they will successfully strive for redemption.

 

[Luissa]

I am not a Christian (not that there is anything wrong with that *royalty check to Seinfeld*) but my personal opinion is this, you know when you have violated your own sense of personal worth, your reason for being, and then you yell out to God or the Universe, give me some grace, save me from myself.

That is either when grace comes or does not.

I do not know if it is from God or self, but redemption is what it is, take it any way you can get it.

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

What do you do when someone says they forgive you, but they don't mean it?
That is my problem with it all, people say they have forgiven someone but in reality it was just for show.

 

[random3434]

Well, what I get from this thread is Gunny is asking if someone redeems himself, (or herself) but can't forgive himself, then what?


Maybe someone could put an example of that out there.

 

[JW Frogen]

What morality do we hold that is not man-made programming? And is ther really any grace?

Given the men I have known I do not think humanity intelligent enough to provide the grace I have been granted.

God knows I am not.

My wife should not stay with me, I wouldn't, be she loves me.

I have a son that is the moon, what did I do to deserve him other than give my wife a night of howling to the moon?

I drink like a fish yet my liver is fine.

I like to get drunk and fly on motorcycles at speeds that could crack sound.

No death, only one wreckless driving charge.

There is grace in this world.

But grace is like love, if you question it too much you will kill it.

 

[xotoxi]

Very true.

Just like an alcoholic needs to stop drinking on their own, or a smoker quits on their own, does one redeem themselves for past transgressions.

NOBODY can make you quit drinking, smoking, just like nobody can make you redeem yourself. It's free will, do you want to change? Do you want forgiveness? And once you've done that, do you feel better about yourself?

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

What do you do when someone says they forgive you, but they don't mean it?
That is my problem with it all, people say they have forgiven someone but in reality it was just for show.

If you are bothered by the fact that you asked for forgiveness and were forgiven by someone who didn't mean it, it means that you need to work on your own redemption.

 

[Gunny]

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Exactly, of course you get it though.

Only THEY can redeem themselves.

I don't think that forgiveness and redemption go hand in hand.

One redeems themselves and then asks for forgiveness.

That other person judges that they have redeemed themselves and forgives them.

Good answer.

 

[Luissa]

Well, what I get from this thread is Gunny is asking if someone redeems himself, (or herself) but can't forgive himself, then what?


Maybe someone could put an example of that out there.

I don't know if I redeemed myself but I used to have a drug problem, which I got over. I am no where near forgiving myself for what I did to myself and others during that time period. TMI