Origin of life - the simplest form of life

[Newtonian]

I accidentally put this thread in the religion section - so OP is duplicate. This is an experiment to see how different this thread will turn out in the Science forum section. OP:

I found one older thread relevant to this - which I bumped/posted on (by ChemEngineer).

This subject is a huge subject of study - it will be hard to post all of the relevant details let alone document the experiments and what they prove (1 Thess. 5:21 - "prove all things" - KJV)

For starters, I will link to 2 of our brochures on this subject and invite you all to comment on any point therein - or any other point relevant to the origin of life:

Starting with our brochure entitled "Origin of Life - five questions worth asking: -

Origin of Life (lf) — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Second - our brochure entitled "Was Life Created?" -

Publications — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I'll start off with one point from the first brochure:

"What do many scientists claim? Many who believe in evolution would tell you that billions of years ago, life began on the edge of an ancient tidal pool or deep in the ocean. They feel that in some such location, chemicals spontaneously assembled into bubblelike structures, formed complex molecules, and began replicating. They believe that all life on earth originated by accident from one or more of these “simple” original cells.

Other equally respected scientists who also support evolution disagree. They speculate that the first cells or at least their major components arrived on earth from outer space. Why? Because, despite their best efforts, scientists have been unable to prove that life can spring from nonliving molecules. In 2008, Professor of Biology Alexandre Meinesz highlighted the dilemma. He stated that over the last 50 years, “no empirical evidence supports the hypotheses of the spontaneous appearance of life on Earth from nothing but a molecular soup, and no significant advance in scientific knowledge leads in this direction.”1

Reference 1:

How Life Began—Evolution’s Three Geneses, by Alexandre Meinesz, translated by Daniel Simberloff, 2008, pp. 30-33, 45.

So, what do you all think about the evidence scientists have discovered? Feel free to post links - I love doing research!

 

[fncceo]

What actual scientific finding do you have to show life didn't arise from the combination of its constituent elements?

 

[Erinwltr]

"(1 Thess. 5:21 - "prove all things" - KJV)"

Definitely not Science and Tech.

 

[Picaro]

Newtonian you might like this blog,

One moment, please...

if you haven't read it already; it points some aspects of the intelligent design argument overlooked by many in this article, which is the beginnings of a decent debate carried on in later blogs as well; it's updated pretty often. You can ignore the Darwinist rubbish; it has been thoroughly refuted long ago and a waste of time now. No scholars take it seriously any more. They've invented new handwaves.

.

 

[Picaro]

What actual scientific finding do you have to show life didn't arise from the combination of its constituent elements?

Where is any actual empirical chain of evidence you're descended from some monkey with birth defects?

 

[Newtonian]

What actual scientific finding do you have to show life didn't arise from the combination of its constituent elements?

Life did arise from its constituent compounds (I think that is what you meant) - the question is how the creator/chemist accomplished this. Mere human creators lack the ability to accomplish this.

A study of the amino acids required for life, and the environments (very variant) which favor each specific amino acids, are main points of this thread. Later I will start a thread on the synthesis of nucleic acids and sugars - they involve totally different environments.

There are many interfering cross reactions most chemical evolutionists ignore. Thus far I have only found PNAS to give necessary details involved - obviously there are other accurate detailed sources - feel free to post them.

One point for this post: the carbonyl groups of sugars (and aldehydes, etc. react with amino groups of Amines like Amino acids to produce Imine and thus to end any further polymerization in any chemical reaction pathway to life.

 

[harmonica]

.....more believable and backed up by facts than the religious '''theory'''--they don't even have a theory

 

[Unkotare]

How do you explain that Jitler is dumber than the simplest single-celled organism?

 

[Hollie]

Newtonian you might like this blog,

One moment, please...

if you haven't read it already; it points some aspects of the intelligent design argument overlooked by many in this article, which is the beginnings of a decent debate carried on in later blogs as well; it's updated pretty often. You can ignore the Darwinist rubbish; it has been thoroughly refuted long ago and a waste of time now. No scholars take it seriously any more. They've invented new handwaves.

.

I don't think creationist conspiracy theories are really helpful.

 

[Newtonian]

Newtonian you might like this blog,

One moment, please...

if you haven't read it already; it points some aspects of the intelligent design argument overlooked by many in this article, which is the beginnings of a decent debate carried on in later blogs as well; it's updated pretty often. You can ignore the Darwinist rubbish; it has been thoroughly refuted long ago and a waste of time now. No scholars take it seriously any more. They've invented new handwaves.

.

Thank you for the blog Picarro. It is very extensive -can you post one (or 10) points from it? I lack the time to read all the entries right now.

 

[Hollie]

What actual scientific finding do you have to show life didn't arise from the combination of its constituent elements?

Life did arise from its constituent compounds (I think that is what you meant) - the question is how the creator/chemist accomplished this. Mere human creators lack the ability to accomplish this.

A study of the amino acids required for life, and the environments (very variant) which favor each specific amino acids, are main points of this thread. Later I will start a thread on the synthesis of nucleic acids and sugars - they involve totally different environments.

There are many interfering cross reactions most chemical evolutionists ignore. Thus far I have only found PNAS to give necessary details involved - obviously there are other accurate detailed sources - feel free to post them.

One point for this post: the carbonyl groups of sugars (and aldehydes, etc. react with amino groups of Amines like Amino acids to produce Imine and thus to end any further polymerization in any chemical reaction pathway to life.

Magic and supernaturalism are not answers to anything. Tell us how your claimed supernatural chemist accomplished his magic. Be sure to supply some evidence for the supernatural chemist.

 

[Newtonian]

Them main reason I am interested in Amino acid synthesis is its relevance to the origin of life. There are also medical aspects and nutritional aspects of course.

Before going into detail in the required environments that favor each amino acid required for life, I should list the 20 amino acids in proteins - they are:

1. alanine - ala - A
2. arginine - arg - R
3. asparagine - asn - N
4. aspartic acid - asp - D
5. cysteine - cys - C
6. glutamine - gln - Q
7. glutamic acid - glu - E
8. glycine - gly - G
9. histidine - his - H
10. isoleucine - ile - I
11. leucine - leu - L
12. lysine - lys - K
13. methionine - met - M
14. phenylalanine - phe - F
15. proline - pro - P
16. serine - ser - S
17. threonine - thr - T
18. tryptophan - trp - W
19. tyrosine - tyr - Y
20. valine - val - V

I will post a little about each amino acid, including the chemical formulas, in subsequent posts. For this post I will simply mention that Glycine is the simplest amino acid and the easiest to synthesize.

 

[Flash]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

 

[harmonica]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

sure he does
your ''theory''', please, on creation of man ?

 

[Hollie]

Them main reason I am interested in Amino acid synthesis is its relevance to the origin of life. There are also medical aspects and nutritional aspects of course.

Before going into detail in the required environments that favor each amino acid required for life, I should list the 20 amino acids in proteins - they are:

1. alanine - ala - A
2. arginine - arg - R
3. asparagine - asn - N
4. aspartic acid - asp - D
5. cysteine - cys - C
6. glutamine - gln - Q
7. glutamic acid - glu - E
8. glycine - gly - G
9. histidine - his - H
10. isoleucine - ile - I
11. leucine - leu - L
12. lysine - lys - K
13. methionine - met - M
14. phenylalanine - phe - F
15. proline - pro - P
16. serine - ser - S
17. threonine - thr - T
18. tryptophan - trp - W
19. tyrosine - tyr - Y
20. valine - val - V

I will post a little about each amino acid, including the chemical formulas, in subsequent posts. For this post I will simply mention that Glycine is the simplest amino acid and the easiest to synthesize.

Could you identify why the supernatural designer chemists chose those particular 20 proteins when they designed creation 6,000 years ago?

Some references please.

 

[Newtonian]

In alphabetic order:

1. Alanine (C3H7NO2)- also one of the easiest amino acids to synthesize. From google search:

"Alanine is an amino acid that is used to make proteins. It is used to break down tryptophan and vitamin B6. It is a source of energy for muscles and the central nervous system. It strengthens the immune system. And it helps the body use sugars.....
Alanine is an α-amino acid that is used in the biosynthesis of proteins. It contains an amine group and a carboxylic acid group, both attached to the central carbon atom which also carries a methyl group side chain."

alpha = a/2. Alpha amino acids are simple simple molecules with a central Carbon (C) bound/attached to a primary amine group (NH2) and a carboxylic group (COOH)

The amine group is NH2.

The carboxylic acid group is the carboxyl group. It is O=C-OH with an alkyl group attached. Formula can also be stated as:
R-COOH (R is the alkyl group attached to the carboxyl group
CO2H is the chemical formula.

Note the 7 atoms of hydrogen in Alanine - that is why synthesis experiments involve molecules rich in hydrogen - e.g. CH4 (methane); NH3 (ammonia); H2O (water) and the hydrogen molecule (H2). Most scientists acknowledge this a very unlikely atmosphere at the origin of life. The famous Miller-Urey experiment had this unlikely environment.

Note that hydrogen is very light (remember the Hindenburg?) compare to the Oxygen molecule. CO2 is heavy by comparison - heavier than air - note the CO2 vapors from dry ice flow down as a result of this. CO2 is the most likely primary component of early earth's atmosphere as proven by the over 64 million petagrams of Carbon in earth's crustal carbonates deposited by the geologic carbon cycle. The geologic carbon cycle involves the reaction of the carbonate ion in water (CO3) with ions of Potassium (K), Calcium (Ca) and Sodium (Na).

The ions of K, Ca and Na destroy organic molecules in the ocean. Chemical evolution cannot occur with these ions in water.

to be continued)

The alkyl group is C(n)H(2n+) including methyl (CH3) in Alanine's methyl side chain attached to the central Carbon (C). [another alkyl is butyl (C2H5)]

 

[Newtonian]

I

Them main reason I am interested in Amino acid synthesis is its relevance to the origin of life. There are also medical aspects and nutritional aspects of course.

Before going into detail in the required environments that favor each amino acid required for life, I should list the 20 amino acids in proteins - they are:

1. alanine - ala - A
2. arginine - arg - R
3. asparagine - asn - N
4. aspartic acid - asp - D
5. cysteine - cys - C
6. glutamine - gln - Q
7. glutamic acid - glu - E
8. glycine - gly - G
9. histidine - his - H
10. isoleucine - ile - I
11. leucine - leu - L
12. lysine - lys - K
13. methionine - met - M
14. phenylalanine - phe - F
15. proline - pro - P
16. serine - ser - S
17. threonine - thr - T
18. tryptophan - trp - W
19. tyrosine - tyr - Y
20. valine - val - V

I will post a little about each amino acid, including the chemical formulas, in subsequent posts. For this post I will simply mention that Glycine is the simplest amino acid and the easiest to synthesize.

Could you identify why the supernatural designer chemists chose those particular 20 proteins when they designed creation 6,000 years ago?

Some references please.

I did not say supernatural did I? Life was created on earth about 3.8 billion years ago. You think I am a young earth creationist? I am one Jehovah's Witnesses.

Change "Why" to "How" and you will be on topic on this thread. We believe God obeyed the laws he created - such as the statutes of the heavens as per Job 38:33 - which do have authority on the earth.

I assume you meant 20 amino acids - not 20 proteins. There are hundreds of proteins required for life, including the exact 3-d fit of enzymes and receptors.

Bottom line - how did/could an intelligent chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life? Note that there are specific chemical reactions used by scientists to synthesize these amino acids - some of which prefer wet environment, others dry (even with condensing agents), acid vs. alkaline, hot vs. cold (the needed temperature for specific amino acid synthesis is often narrow & crucial- as is the environment needed). An example is Cytosine synthesis - more on that later - but feel free to post how you think Cytosine was synthesized at the moment of creation of life.

[I say moment because many of the required informational molecules required for life have short life spans - and the information within them is lost very rapidly - see the chemical reaction definition of death of a living cell.]

 

[Hollie]

I

Them main reason I am interested in Amino acid synthesis is its relevance to the origin of life. There are also medical aspects and nutritional aspects of course.

Before going into detail in the required environments that favor each amino acid required for life, I should list the 20 amino acids in proteins - they are:

1. alanine - ala - A
2. arginine - arg - R
3. asparagine - asn - N
4. aspartic acid - asp - D
5. cysteine - cys - C
6. glutamine - gln - Q
7. glutamic acid - glu - E
8. glycine - gly - G
9. histidine - his - H
10. isoleucine - ile - I
11. leucine - leu - L
12. lysine - lys - K
13. methionine - met - M
14. phenylalanine - phe - F
15. proline - pro - P
16. serine - ser - S
17. threonine - thr - T
18. tryptophan - trp - W
19. tyrosine - tyr - Y
20. valine - val - V

I will post a little about each amino acid, including the chemical formulas, in subsequent posts. For this post I will simply mention that Glycine is the simplest amino acid and the easiest to synthesize.

Could you identify why the supernatural designer chemists chose those particular 20 proteins when they designed creation 6,000 years ago?

Some references please.

I did not say supernatural did I? Life was created on earth about 3.8 billion years ago. You think I am a young earth creationist? I am one Jehovah's Witnesses.

Change "Why" to "How" and you will be on topic on this thread. We believe God obeyed the laws he created - such as the statutes of the heavens as per Job 38:33 - which do have authority on the earth.

I assume you meant 20 amino acids - not 20 proteins. There are hundreds of proteins required for life, including the exact 3-d fit of enzymes and receptors.

Bottom line - how did/could an intelligent chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life? Note that there are specific chemical reactions used by scientists to synthesize these amino acids - some of which prefer wet environment, others dry (even with condensing agents), acid vs. alkaline, hot vs. cold (the needed temperature for specific amino acid synthesis is often narrow & crucial- as is the environment needed). An example is Cytosine synthesis - more on that later - but feel free to post how you think Cytosine was synthesized at the moment of creation of life.

[I say moment because many of the required informational molecules required for life have short life spans - and the information within them is lost very rapidly - see the chemical reaction definition of death of a living cell.]

So... aside from the above, I'm not seeing any indication of how or why a supernatural chemist would need such seemingly complicated chemistry to supernaturally create life.

You ask a good question - how did/could an intelligent (supernatural -ed.) chemist synthesize the 20 Amino acids required for proteins which are required for life?

Why are 20 amino acids required for life when a supernatural designer could seemingly design creation using just 1 or 2.

 

[Newtonian]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

We do have clues - but you are correct that God knows how to create life (as in biology) using chemistry and us inferior humans (even genius scientists) do not know how to do it.

One purpose of this thread is how God did it. Specifically how God synthesized the amino acids required for proteins required for life.

Of course, life is far more complex than simply getting all the proteins required for life into the same place at the same time. In fact it is also more complex than producing informational proteins rather than statistical proteins. The proteins have to have the CORRECT information, and messenger molecules are required to read and translated that information and use it in some function required for life. Compare messenger RNA.

 

[Hollie]

We know a lot about Chemistry.

We know a lot about Biology.

We don't have clue how Chemistry turns into Biology.

However, God does.

We do have clues - but you are correct that God knows how to create life (as in biology) using chemistry and us inferior humans (even genius scientists) do not know how to do it.

One purpose of this thread is how God did it. Specifically how God synthesized the amino acids required for proteins required for life.

Of course, life is far more complex than simply getting all the proteins required for life into the same place at the same time. In fact it is also more complex than producing informational proteins rather than statistical proteins. The proteins have to have the CORRECT information, and messenger molecules are required to read and translated that information and use it in some function required for life. Compare messenger RNA.

Threads about the gods don't belong in the Science and Technology forum.