O'Reily punks Alan Grayson

[Immanuel]

40,000 die each year due to lack of health care? I'd like to see the source for that information. I'd argue thousands die every year due to car wrecks which has nothing to do with healthcare. Looks like you got your talking points from Pelosi. How about proving your claims?

I'm sorry, I don't remember the thread but there was one a couple weeks back that had a link to the people who did the research. They admitted to some of the flaws in their research, such as they asked people if they had insurance in the initial interview and then tracked them from I think 1984 - 2000 and never tracked their insurance information. So, if they died in 1997 and had health insurance they were considered to have been uninsured. I am sure you can see the problem with that. Not everyone seems to understand that, including Rep. Grayson.

Immie

 

[Lonestar_logic]

40,000 die each year due to lack of health care? I'd like to see the source for that information. I'd argue thousands die every year due to car wrecks which has nothing to do with healthcare. Looks like you got your talking points from Pelosi. How about proving your claims?

I'm sorry, I don't remember the thread but there was one a couple weeks back that had a link to the people who did the research. They admitted to some of the flaws in their research, such as they asked people if they had insurance in the initial interview and then tracked them from I think 1984 - 2000 and never tracked their insurance information. So, if they died in 1997 and had health insurance they were considered to have been uninsured. I am sure you can see the problem with that. Not everyone seems to understand that, including Rep. Grayson.

Immie

Good point. Fact is no one dies simply because they have no health insurance. No hospital can refuse treatment based on ability or non-ability to pay. I think rdumbshit is once again talking out of his ass.

 

[paperview]

40,000 die each year due to lack of health care? I'd like to see the source for that information. I'd argue thousands die every year due to car wrecks which has nothing to do with healthcare. Looks like you got your talking points from Pelosi. How about proving your claims?

I'm sorry, I don't remember the thread but there was one a couple weeks back that had a link to the people who did the research. They admitted to some of the flaws in their research, such as they asked people if they had insurance in the initial interview and then tracked them from I think 1984 - 2000 and never tracked their insurance information. So, if they died in 1997 and had health insurance they were considered to have been uninsured. I am sure you can see the problem with that. Not everyone seems to understand that, including Rep. Grayson.

Immie

I would love to see that link.

 

[Immanuel]

40,000 die each year due to lack of health care? I'd like to see the source for that information. I'd argue thousands die every year due to car wrecks which has nothing to do with healthcare. Looks like you got your talking points from Pelosi. How about proving your claims?

I'm sorry, I don't remember the thread but there was one a couple weeks back that had a link to the people who did the research. They admitted to some of the flaws in their research, such as they asked people if they had insurance in the initial interview and then tracked them from I think 1984 - 2000 and never tracked their insurance information. So, if they died in 1997 and had health insurance they were considered to have been uninsured. I am sure you can see the problem with that. Not everyone seems to understand that, including Rep. Grayson.

Immie

I would love to see that link.

You can search for it as easily as I can.

I believe it was in the healthcare forum, but who knows, it may have been moved to the flame zone.

I'm not sure, but the thread may have been started by Plymco_Pilgrim.

Search for "1984" or "2000" or better yet search my posts for 1984 to narrow it down. I don't have time to go back and read all those threads, but it is there somewhere.

edit:Here's the link to the thread see post #27:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/health-and-lifestyle/92424-names-of-the-dead-2.html

Immie

 

[paperview]

I'm sorry, I don't remember the thread but there was one a couple weeks back that had a link to the people who did the research. They admitted to some of the flaws in their research, such as they asked people if they had insurance in the initial interview and then tracked them from I think 1984 - 2000 and never tracked their insurance information. So, if they died in 1997 and had health insurance they were considered to have been uninsured. I am sure you can see the problem with that. Not everyone seems to understand that, including Rep. Grayson.

Immie

I would love to see that link.

You can search for it as easily as I can.

I believe it was in the healthcare forum, but who knows, it may have been moved to the flame zone.

I'm not sure, but the thread may have been started by Plymco_Pilgrim.

Search for "1984" or "2000" or better yet search my posts for 1984 to narrow it down. I don't have time to go back and read all those threads, but it is there somewhere.

edit:Here's the link to the thread see post #27:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/health-and-lifestyle/92424-names-of-the-dead-2.html

Immie

Thank you for the link.

I see what was quoted about that study is a Michelle Malkin op-ed. Forgive me for my underwhelment, but I have rarely found Malkin to be truthful in her articles. There is always a gross amount of omission, overstated rhetoric and outright lies.

I am going to look into it further, but to use a Malkin article as proof is as about as disingenuous as me linking a Michael Moore op-ed and expecting you to see it as fair and balanced.

 

[Immanuel]

I would love to see that link.

You can search for it as easily as I can.

I believe it was in the healthcare forum, but who knows, it may have been moved to the flame zone.

I'm not sure, but the thread may have been started by Plymco_Pilgrim.

Search for "1984" or "2000" or better yet search my posts for 1984 to narrow it down. I don't have time to go back and read all those threads, but it is there somewhere.

edit:Here's the link to the thread see post #27:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/health-and-lifestyle/92424-names-of-the-dead-2.html

Immie

Thank you for the link.

I see what was quoted about that study is a Michelle Malkin op-ed. Forgive me for my underwhelment, but I have rarely found Malkin to be truthful in her articles. There is always a gross amount of omission, overstated rhetoric and outright lies.

I am going to look into it further, but to use a Malkin article as proof is as about as disingenuous as me linking a Michael Moore op-ed and expecting you to see it as fair and balanced.

Here is a link to the actual study please see "limitations" on page 5:

http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdf

And no, Malkin is 1000 times more reliable than Michael Moore, but that is not saying a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

 

[paperview]

I found this Factcheck link provided much better context Immie:

Dying from Lack of Insurance | FactCheck.org

 

[paperview]

While Malkin may have been correct in slicing the numbers some, it is extremely difficult to arrive at a solid set of numbers based on hypotheticals and inability to compile truly objective stats -
there is still no doubt a great many people die from lack of health insurance.

While you and Malkin are free to undercut the study, to disregard it (as well as the other studies noted in the above link) completely is absurd. If you folks wish to though, I recommend a great no-cost-no-coverage health care program you can lock you into for the rest of your lives, if you dare.

 

[Immanuel]

I found this Factcheck link provided much better context Immie:

Dying from Lack of Insurance | FactCheck.org

While Malkin may have been correct in slicing the numbers some, it is extremely difficult to arrive at a solid set of numbers based on hypotheticals and inability to compile truly objective stats -
there is still no doubt a great many people die from lack of health insurance.

While you and Malkin are free to undercut the study, to disregard it (as well as the other studies noted in the above link) completely is absurd. If you folks wish to though, I recommend a great no-cost-no-coverage health care program you can lock you into for the rest of your lives, if you dare.

The way I remember Grayson's comments was that these people died for no other reason than the lack of insurance. That was a flat out lie. People with and without insurance die every day. People without health insurance are never turned away from life-saving health care. Basically, he was calling members of the Medical profession murderers.

According to your link people without health insurance may have a 25% greater chance of dying, but there are other factors to be considered as in how well they take care of themselves i.e. fitness.

There has been some criticism of this type of research and its ability to find a direct causal link. A 2003 commentary by Richard Kronick in Medical Care Research and Review questioned whether other factors beyond uninsurance would reduce the greater mortality for the uninsured. Kronick recreated the Franks study using more recent data and, after adjusting for various factors, also found a 25 percent greater risk of death for the uninsured. But he said: "It seems likely that if we were able to control for additional factors, such as health-related behaviors (smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity, and risk-taking behaviors more generally), wealth, or value placed on health or health care, the estimated effect of being uninsured would be reduced further. What is uncertain is whether the reduction would bring the estimated hazard ratio all the way down to 1.0 or whether an independent effect of being uninsured would remain." (Other studies, including the Franks study, did adjust for smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity and income.)

Rep Grayson deliberately distorted the facts. He lied for political purposes. He lied in order to make his opponents look bad. Politicians suck and Rep Grayson sucks with the rest of them.

Unfortunately, many people believed him and now claim that 45,000 people die every year because they do not have health insurance. The question people really should be asking is how many of those 45,000 would not have died if they had health insurance? It is possible that some of those who died would not have died if they had insurance. Maybe they would have gone and had tests done that would have found their cancer before it was too late... and for that I suppose Rep Grayson would blame the insurance companies.

Immie

 

[mattskramer]

YouTube - Bill O'Reilly Correspondent Griff Jenkins Tracks Down Flordia Rep. Alan Grayson - 10/28/09

What a fucking pussy, instead of answering he says 'make an appointment' which they tried ten times.

Just another gutless shit.

So FOX sent its goons out to track down this guy and demand that he answer questions. I’m still waiting for Bill to answer questions concerning his relationship with Andrea Mackris. Come on, O'Reilly. How much money was paid to Andrea? Is she free to give away the audio tapes without facing legal repercussions? People want to know. I have very little respect, if any, for Bill O’Reilly. He is a bully who can dish it out but is unwilling to hold himself to the same standards that he sets for others. Hey, here is a word for Bill: Hypocrite.

 

[saveliberty]

YouTube - Bill O'Reilly Correspondent Griff Jenkins Tracks Down Flordia Rep. Alan Grayson - 10/28/09

What a fucking pussy, instead of answering he says 'make an appointment' which they tried ten times.

Just another gutless shit.

So FOX sent its goons out to track down this guy and demand that he answer questions. I’m still waiting for Bill to answer questions concerning his relationship with Andrea Mackris. Come on, O'Reilly. How much money was paid to Andrea? Is she free to give away the audio tapes without facing legal repercussions? People want to know. I have very little respect, if any, for Bill O’Reilly. He is a bully who can dish it out but is unwilling to hold himself to the same standards that he sets for others. Hey, here is a word for Bill: Hypocrite.

An imperfect person has no right to express their opinion or seek the facts. What are you doing here hypocrite?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Just two words for Billo the Clown..."Luffa much?"

 

[rdean]

What a bunch of funny clowns. You guys point to "factcheck" as "proof" that the 45,000 number is wrong. Did anyone on the right actually read it? What was written by "factcheck"? What a bunch of clowns. They said 45,000 might be on the high end, but didn't discount it. What's worse, with statements like the one below, the count could actually be a lot higher. Fools!

The right hates America, there can't be any other possible explanation.

Dying from Lack of Insurance | FactCheck.org

Ayanian’s testimony to Congress, March 2009: Uninsured Americans frequently delay or forgo doctors’ visits, prescription medications, and other effective treatments, even when they have serious disease or life-threatening conditions. … Because uninsured adults seek health care less often than insured adults, they are often unaware of health problems such as high blood pressure, high cholesterol, or early-stage cancer. Uninsured adults are also much less likely to receive vaccinations, cancer screening services such as mammography and colonoscopy, and other effective preventive services.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I found this Factcheck link provided much better context Immie:

Dying from Lack of Insurance | FactCheck.org

While Malkin may have been correct in slicing the numbers some, it is extremely difficult to arrive at a solid set of numbers based on hypotheticals and inability to compile truly objective stats -
there is still no doubt a great many people die from lack of health insurance.

While you and Malkin are free to undercut the study, to disregard it (as well as the other studies noted in the above link) completely is absurd. If you folks wish to though, I recommend a great no-cost-no-coverage health care program you can lock you into for the rest of your lives, if you dare.

The way I remember Grayson's comments was that these people died for no other reason than the lack of insurance. That was a flat out lie. People with and without insurance die every day. People without health insurance are never turned away from life-saving health care. Basically, he was calling members of the Medical profession murderers.

According to your link people without health insurance may have a 25% greater chance of dying, but there are other factors to be considered as in how well they take care of themselves i.e. fitness.

There has been some criticism of this type of research and its ability to find a direct causal link. A 2003 commentary by Richard Kronick in Medical Care Research and Review questioned whether other factors beyond uninsurance would reduce the greater mortality for the uninsured. Kronick recreated the Franks study using more recent data and, after adjusting for various factors, also found a 25 percent greater risk of death for the uninsured. But he said: "It seems likely that if we were able to control for additional factors, such as health-related behaviors (smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity, and risk-taking behaviors more generally), wealth, or value placed on health or health care, the estimated effect of being uninsured would be reduced further. What is uncertain is whether the reduction would bring the estimated hazard ratio all the way down to 1.0 or whether an independent effect of being uninsured would remain." (Other studies, including the Franks study, did adjust for smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity and income.)

Rep Grayson deliberately distorted the facts. He lied for political purposes. He lied in order to make his opponents look bad. Politicians suck and Rep Grayson sucks with the rest of them.

Unfortunately, many people believed him and now claim that 45,000 people die every year because they do not have health insurance. The question people really should be asking is how many of those 45,000 would not have died if they had health insurance? It is possible that some of those who died would not have died if they had insurance. Maybe they would have gone and had tests done that would have found their cancer before it was too late... and for that I suppose Rep Grayson would blame the insurance companies.

Immie

<center><a href=http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-lack-health-coverage>New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage </a></center>

It's not a "claim" Immie...It's a fact supported by the Harvard study cited above. Get over it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I found this Factcheck link provided much better context Immie:

Dying from Lack of Insurance | FactCheck.org

While Malkin may have been correct in slicing the numbers some, it is extremely difficult to arrive at a solid set of numbers based on hypotheticals and inability to compile truly objective stats -
there is still no doubt a great many people die from lack of health insurance.

While you and Malkin are free to undercut the study, to disregard it (as well as the other studies noted in the above link) completely is absurd. If you folks wish to though, I recommend a great no-cost-no-coverage health care program you can lock you into for the rest of your lives, if you dare.

The way I remember Grayson's comments was that these people died for no other reason than the lack of insurance. That was a flat out lie. People with and without insurance die every day. People without health insurance are never turned away from life-saving health care. Basically, he was calling members of the Medical profession murderers.

According to your link people without health insurance may have a 25% greater chance of dying, but there are other factors to be considered as in how well they take care of themselves i.e. fitness.

There has been some criticism of this type of research and its ability to find a direct causal link. A 2003 commentary by Richard Kronick in Medical Care Research and Review questioned whether other factors beyond uninsurance would reduce the greater mortality for the uninsured. Kronick recreated the Franks study using more recent data and, after adjusting for various factors, also found a 25 percent greater risk of death for the uninsured. But he said: "It seems likely that if we were able to control for additional factors, such as health-related behaviors (smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity, and risk-taking behaviors more generally), wealth, or value placed on health or health care, the estimated effect of being uninsured would be reduced further. What is uncertain is whether the reduction would bring the estimated hazard ratio all the way down to 1.0 or whether an independent effect of being uninsured would remain." (Other studies, including the Franks study, did adjust for smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity and income.)

Rep Grayson deliberately distorted the facts. He lied for political purposes. He lied in order to make his opponents look bad. Politicians suck and Rep Grayson sucks with the rest of them.

Unfortunately, many people believed him and now claim that 45,000 people die every year because they do not have health insurance. The question people really should be asking is how many of those 45,000 would not have died if they had health insurance? It is possible that some of those who died would not have died if they had insurance. Maybe they would have gone and had tests done that would have found their cancer before it was too late... and for that I suppose Rep Grayson would blame the insurance companies.

Immie

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage ​

It's not a "claim" Immie...It's a fact supported by the Harvard study cited above. Get over it.

 

[Immanuel]

I found this Factcheck link provided much better context Immie:

Dying from Lack of Insurance | FactCheck.org

The way I remember Grayson's comments was that these people died for no other reason than the lack of insurance. That was a flat out lie. People with and without insurance die every day. People without health insurance are never turned away from life-saving health care. Basically, he was calling members of the Medical profession murderers.

According to your link people without health insurance may have a 25% greater chance of dying, but there are other factors to be considered as in how well they take care of themselves i.e. fitness.

There has been some criticism of this type of research and its ability to find a direct causal link. A 2003 commentary by Richard Kronick in Medical Care Research and Review questioned whether other factors beyond uninsurance would reduce the greater mortality for the uninsured. Kronick recreated the Franks study using more recent data and, after adjusting for various factors, also found a 25 percent greater risk of death for the uninsured. But he said: "It seems likely that if we were able to control for additional factors, such as health-related behaviors (smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity, and risk-taking behaviors more generally), wealth, or value placed on health or health care, the estimated effect of being uninsured would be reduced further. What is uncertain is whether the reduction would bring the estimated hazard ratio all the way down to 1.0 or whether an independent effect of being uninsured would remain." (Other studies, including the Franks study, did adjust for smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity and income.)

Rep Grayson deliberately distorted the facts. He lied for political purposes. He lied in order to make his opponents look bad. Politicians suck and Rep Grayson sucks with the rest of them.

Unfortunately, many people believed him and now claim that 45,000 people die every year because they do not have health insurance. The question people really should be asking is how many of those 45,000 would not have died if they had health insurance? It is possible that some of those who died would not have died if they had insurance. Maybe they would have gone and had tests done that would have found their cancer before it was too late... and for that I suppose Rep Grayson would blame the insurance companies.

Immie

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage ​

It's not a "claim" Immie...It's a fact supported by the Harvard study cited above. Get over it.

It is not a fact and they even pointed out the flaws in their study. Maybe you should get over the fact that your latest hero is nothing but another liar in Washington.

And as rdean stated it was on the high end. But what he refused to point out was that they also stated that there is no evidence that these 45k deaths per year were in fact related to not having insurance as your hero claimed.

They very clearly stated that some (maybe even all) of those deaths could be related to other factors like not having access to preventative medicine, but they also stated that it could be other factors as well such as the poor not having the resources to keep physically fit.

Maybe you both should actually read the factcheck page before you start spouting Grayson Bullshit? Grayson is a liar just like every other politician in Washington. He is exactly the kind of lunatic that needs to keep spouting the shit he does so that we can defeat this attempt to allow the US Government to destroy the free market system along with our medical profession.

Immie

 

[rdean]

The way I remember Grayson's comments was that these people died for no other reason than the lack of insurance. That was a flat out lie. People with and without insurance die every day. People without health insurance are never turned away from life-saving health care. Basically, he was calling members of the Medical profession murderers.

According to your link people without health insurance may have a 25% greater chance of dying, but there are other factors to be considered as in how well they take care of themselves i.e. fitness.



Rep Grayson deliberately distorted the facts. He lied for political purposes. He lied in order to make his opponents look bad. Politicians suck and Rep Grayson sucks with the rest of them.

Unfortunately, many people believed him and now claim that 45,000 people die every year because they do not have health insurance. The question people really should be asking is how many of those 45,000 would not have died if they had health insurance? It is possible that some of those who died would not have died if they had insurance. Maybe they would have gone and had tests done that would have found their cancer before it was too late... and for that I suppose Rep Grayson would blame the insurance companies.

Immie

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage ​

It's not a "claim" Immie...It's a fact supported by the Harvard study cited above. Get over it.

It is not a fact and they even pointed out the flaws in their study. Maybe you should get over the fact that your latest hero is nothing but another liar in Washington.

And as rdean stated it was on the high end. But what he refused to point out was that they also stated that there is no evidence that these 45k deaths per year were in fact related to not having insurance as your hero claimed.

They very clearly stated that some (maybe even all) of those deaths could be related to other factors like not having access to preventative medicine, but they also stated that it could be other factors as well such as the poor not having the resources to keep physically fit.

Maybe you both should actually read the factcheck page before you start spouting Grayson Bullshit? Grayson is a liar just like every other politician in Washington. He is exactly the kind of lunatic that needs to keep spouting the shit he does so that we can defeat this attempt to allow the US Government to destroy the free market system along with our medical profession.

Immie

Umm, actually, you need to go where the data leads. There certainly is evidence for "cause and effect". Since there are millions who are uninsured, it is very likely that the number could be lower or much higher. But, after reading the statement below, what does your reasoning tell you?

Because uninsured adults seek health care less often than insured adults, they are often unaware of health problems such as high blood pressure, high cholesterol, or early-stage cancer. Uninsured adults are also much less likely to receive vaccinations, cancer screening services such as mammography and colonoscopy, and other effective preventive services.

 

[mattskramer]

YouTube - Bill O'Reilly Correspondent Griff Jenkins Tracks Down Flordia Rep. Alan Grayson - 10/28/09

What a fucking pussy, instead of answering he says 'make an appointment' which they tried ten times.

Just another gutless shit.

So FOX sent its goons out to track down this guy and demand that he answer questions. I’m still waiting for Bill to answer questions concerning his relationship with Andrea Mackris. Come on, O'Reilly. How much money was paid to Andrea? Is she free to give away the audio tapes without facing legal repercussions? People want to know. I have very little respect, if any, for Bill O’Reilly. He is a bully who can dish it out but is unwilling to hold himself to the same standards that he sets for others. Hey, here is a word for Bill: Hypocrite.

An imperfect person has no right to express their opinion or seek the facts. What are you doing here hypocrite?

Please don’t try to put words into my mouth. Perhaps you should read my post more carefully. Imperfect people have the right to express opinions and ask questions. I do the same. I am bringing up the fact that Bill is a hypocrite. It would be nice if he were to apply the same standard to himself that he applies to others. I am not a hypocrite.

 

[Cryptick`]

O'Reily is poison...

 

[rdean]

YouTube - Bill O'Reilly Correspondent Griff Jenkins Tracks Down Flordia Rep. Alan Grayson - 10/28/09

What a fucking pussy, instead of answering he says 'make an appointment' which they tried ten times.

Just another gutless shit.

So FOX sent its goons out to track down this guy and demand that he answer questions. I&#8217;m still waiting for Bill to answer questions concerning his relationship with Andrea Mackris. Come on, O'Reilly. How much money was paid to Andrea? Is she free to give away the audio tapes without facing legal repercussions? People want to know. I have very little respect, if any, for Bill O&#8217;Reilly. He is a bully who can dish it out but is unwilling to hold himself to the same standards that he sets for others. Hey, here is a word for Bill: Hypocrite.

During the trial, one of the tapes WAS released. Bill was on his show calling her a liar and extortionist. The tape was released where he said, "We need to go get a hotel room and get this thing over with". Within a week, the case was settled out of court.

Then there is the case of Shawn Hornbeck. Shawn was an eleven year old boy grabbed off the streets and raped. As the rapist wrapped his hands around Shawn's neck to kill him, the boy pleaded and said he would be the guy's slave if he let him live. The rapist told Shawn that he knew where the kids family lived and would kill them if Shawn ever told or tried to escape. For 5 years, Shawn lived with this monster until the rapist brought another child home to rape and then kill. Shawn escaped with the new victim.

Bill said Shawn was having a "good time" and didn't have to go to school. Bill said Shawn could have left at any time, but was having "too much fun".

Shawn's parents, on national TV, begged Bill to stop saying these things because people believe what Bill says. They asked Bill to apologize to fix some of the damage he caused. Instead, Bill simply said, "I'm not going to talk about this anymore", and never apologized.

Bill, "A Bold Fresh Steaming Piece of Humanity". No wonder Republicans like and admire him. A man of convictions who stands behind his words.