Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Meriweather]

A lesson I learned from others, and one I see others have learned for themselves is that belief can cause divisions and tribalism and hate/distrust for those outside of the circle of like minded believers. I do find real arrogance in that believers are often quick to point out that their conception of the faith is true and inerrant in comparison to the conceptions of others and that can be a group and/or individual bias.

While people who choose to leave the tribe are not arrogant of all, and seldom--if ever--give anyone the impression their conclusions, conceptions, and perceptions are clearly superior to those within the tribe.

 

[Grumblenuts]

try to imagine a dolphin, who creates all existence - what do you see?

The exact same thing as imagining some god doing it. Silliness.

I have to give you back your compliment. You are an agressive idiot, who tries to avoid to think. Imagine it was nothing - and then "suddenly" was something - including space and time. That's an idea which is about 1700 years old in the Christian world. His word of creation is timeless. This qualitative idea - interesting, but not really necessary for the Christian faith - finds a nice quantitative realisation in the theory of relativity.

I would say the very big problem of atheists is often the little word "not". Yes and no are not like + and - in mathematics or 0 and 1 in a computer. Example: If somehting is not a stone - then this something is able to be everything what is not a stone. But no one knows everything. Not to know everything makes no one silly. So to say: "it was not this way" means only it was an unknown other way - but not which way. In the end knows no one anything any longer. And in a situation of nothing god created the world. Was god existing when he created existence? Who knows? If he exists not now - will he exist in the next second? Who knows? Do you really think all others, who do not think like you are doing, are only silly? If so: What made you unsilly? How to prove this?

Great. You asked for an opinion. I gave you mine. You're welcome.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I can’t say I know what, if any, themes as presented in the Bible reflect an original author (with regard to the oft-named apostles). Original authors of the Bible are in question thus any original themes are in question. One seemingly obvious question to the gods would be “why did you put your message in a book written by largely unknown humans who corrupted some alleged holy message with errors and contradictions.”

The question I have of you (because I am curious) is who, exactly, are you giving a hard time...and why?

Oh, oh, I know! Let me! Bible thumpers of any stripe ...and because it strikes us as bullshit! Thus why we call ourselves atheists! We choose never to "study" or "worship" such bullshit. No matter how cleverly served up. Hooray!

 

[zaangalewa]

try to imagine a dolphin, who creates all existence - what do you see?

The exact same thing as imagining some god doing it. Silliness.

I have to give you back your compliment. You are an agressive idiot, who tries to avoid to think. Imagine it was nothing - and then "suddenly" was something - including space and time. That's an idea which is about 1700 years old in the Christian world. His word of creation is timeless. This qualitative idea - interesting, but not really necessary for the Christian faith - finds a nice quantitative realisation in the theory of relativity.

I would say the very big problem of atheists is often the little word "not". Yes and no are not like + and - in mathematics or 0 and 1 in a computer. Example: If somehting is not a stone - then this something is able to be everything what is not a stone. But no one knows everything. Not to know everything makes no one silly. So to say: "it was not this way" means only it was an unknown other way - but not which way. In the end knows no one anything any longer. And in a situation of nothing god created the world. Was god existing when he created existence? Who knows? If he exists not now - will he exist in the next second? Who knows? Do you really think all others, who do not think like you are doing, are only silly? If so: What made you unsilly? How to prove this?

Great. You asked for an opinion. I gave you mine. You're welcome.

I asked not for an opinion. I suggested sealybobo to use the picture, he had created on his own, to find an entry into the being of god and his creation.

 

[zaangalewa]

... We choose never to "study" or "worship" such bullshit. No matter how cleverly served up. Hooray!

What exactly is the reason why you "communicate" with others?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Human beings are social animals.

 

[ding]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, oh, I know! Let me! Bible thumpers of any stripe ...and because it strikes us as bullshit! Thus why we call ourselves atheists! We choose never to "study" or "worship" such bullshit. No matter how cleverly served up. Hooray!

Do you feel pressured now to study and/or worship? Or, have you in the past?

 

[Andylusion]

Gravity can't be explained scientifically.

Of course it can:

A warping of space caused by mass within that space.

Explained. What sort of explanation are you looking for?

Why does that happen?

Gravity mysteries: What is gravity?

The Newtonian idea of gravity was nice and simple, then Einstein turned things upside down, and even that isn't the end of the story

www.newscientist.com

We don't know. Again you are describing what happens, not explaining why it happens.

As Fort Fun knows, I happen to fundamentally disagree with his (and Einstein's.. along with practically the entire current scientific status quo's..) theory regarding this (what gravity is). However, I recognize his as both a scientific theory and one having a lot of consensus in support. That equals a measure of "We knowing" by scientific definition. Having a scientifically, unfalsifiable, repeatably testable theory.. is knowing something. Certainly more than can be said for any gods. The math, at least, works out . The logic and results otherwise are where I take issue and opt for, what seems to me at least, a far more satisfying overall explanation, effectively resulting in the same math. But I'm not going to devote the next ten years required to deprogram you or anyone else here trying to explain it all. Been there, tested that idea. Doing so just proved a waste of my time.

Suffice it to say, you or "newscientist.com" declaring something a "mystery" doesn't logically qualify it as such for everyone("We"). Have you even tried Googling "Theories explaining gravity" or the equivalent, for example? Try it. I think you'll find lots to chew on.. Don't just look at the first results..

Yeah, don't waste your time trying to "deprogram" me. You can't. It's impossible, because I have met G-d. I knew he exists, because he has directly answered prayers, in real direct ways.

He's as real to me as you are. In fact, more real in some ways, because I only know you as "Grumblenuts" which is nothing. You could be anywhere, doing anything. You could be a bot, or cutting and pasting this from some other person. Who knows. And same for me, right?

But G-d to me, has directly moved in my life. He is there. He hears my prayers. He doesn't always answer how I want, but he does answer.

So... yeah, you are not going to de-program me, or whatever. Not going to happen.

I love science. I read science articles for fun. My favorite topic of choice is nuclear physics. Now I'm no expert or something, but I enjoy science.

And sure I've read articles on "Theories explaining gravity" Sure. They explain very well the math of how gravity works. They explain what gravity does. They explain very well the mechanics involved.

"Every point mass attracts every single point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is directly proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses."

Right?

But what science cannot answer is.... why? Why does this happen? We can calculate it. We can demonstrate it. We can document and describe it. But it still doesn't explain.... why?

Sure we have hypothesis. That's great. But, anyone can make a guess.

My only statement in this thread was, the OP said Science can explain everything. No... it can't. Science can do many many things, but it can't "explain everything".

Here's a thought. Use science in nature, to explain morality. You certainly don't see morality in nature. Nor does the science of the material world explain morality. So where did the idea that something can be morally right or morally wrong, if we're just animals from evolution?

I think we can use nature to explain morality. I'll cite Jane Goodall's study of chimpanzees as the natural analogy to human tribal customs that evolves into law (and which codes morality). Furthermore, we consistently see humans -- with no specific religious connotation, have survival-based laws that preclude wanton murder and thievery. Further still, we see simple indigenous tribes have better morality than industrial nations have -- for instance, many tribes have no concept of thievery because they communally share everything.

Not sure if that makes the case you think it does.

Is the Chimp making a moral judgement, or is it acting on instincts?

And saying humans with no specific religious connotation, have moral laws.. would actually support the Biblical narrative.

Remember, we Christians believe that Man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Meaning that all human beings are born with a moral compass. That compass may be heavily influenced by the culture they are in, but they have it.

As for tribes, I'm not sure if you can really conclude their morality is "better", when they have nothing to steal.

If you don't own anything, then nothing can be stolen from you. That doesn't mean your morals are better. And I don't know which specific tribes you refer to, but I don't know of any that are better to live in, than modern civilization.

 

[sealybobo]

try to imagine a dolphin, who creates all existence - what do you see?

The exact same thing as imagining some god doing it. Silliness.

I know. I'm trying to keep it respectful and polite but I think we see where the theist starts to go off the deep end. Doing such things as insisting their god is not of this physical world.

I think it should be ok for us to call bullshit on the bullshit. This thread started off with normal people admitting no one can know for sure but now we have a bunch of theists who claim to know and even though I told them I won't take any holy books seriously, they continue to want to use it as a source.

 

[sealybobo]

So you are saying religion isn't standing up to the test of time?

Time has a way of changing all things. It is not so much religion not standing up to the test of time, it clearly has. However, I do believe it wise to be aware of at what point in time a change occurred. My favorite example is with Bishop in the 1600s. He decided that based on an English translation from the Hebrew, he could calculate the age of the earth.

In the late 1800s, there came the advent of "Rapture", once again redefining a word during its translation.

I've been speaking how it is best that the Bible be studied, not read--an ancient Jewish proverb that was tossed out the window by some during the 1500s and the Protestant Reformation. Some decided the Bible could be easily understood during a single reading by anyone.

And, don't get me started on "End Times".

Your religion has also changed with the times.

Listen. I think I said in the beginning that I have an open mind to gods being real but I don't have an open mind to any organized religions. Your holy book is not a history book and it is not filled with facts. So I am not open minded when it comes to Christianity. I notice you can't help but push it on us.

 

[sealybobo]

try to imagine a dolphin, who creates all existence - what do you see?

The exact same thing as imagining some god doing it. Silliness.

I have to give you back your compliment. You are an agressive idiot, who tries to avoid to think. Imagine it was nothing - and then "suddenly" was something - including space and time. That's an idea which is about 1700 years old in the Christian world. His word of creation is timeless. This qualitative idea - interesting, but not really necessary for the Christian faith - finds a nice quantitative realisation in the theory of relativity.

I would say the very big problem of atheists is often the little word "not". Yes and no are not like + and - in mathematics or 0 and 1 in a computer. Example: If somehting is not a stone - then this something is able to be everything what is not a stone. But no one knows everything. Not to know everything makes no one silly. So to say: "it was not this way" means only it was an unknown other way - but not which way. In the end knows no one anything any longer. And in a situation of nothing god created the world. Was god existing when he created existence? Who knows? If he exists not now - will he exist in the next second? Who knows? Do you really think all others, who do not think like you are doing, are only silly? If so: What made you unsilly? How to prove this?

This post is kind of silly.


It's like asking what is obscene? It's hard to define but you know it when you see it or hear it.

I know the difference between silly thoughts and serious thoughts.

 

[sealybobo]

Oh, oh, I know! Let me! Bible thumpers of any stripe ...and because it strikes us as bullshit! Thus why we call ourselves atheists! We choose never to "study" or "worship" such bullshit. No matter how cleverly served up. Hooray!

Do you feel pressured now to study and/or worship? Or, have you in the past?

I’ll say it again. I have an open mind that god may exist. But, I don’t have an open mind when it comes to any organized religions. Or I should say I have just as open a mind towards Christianity as you have for Islam or Mormonism.

 

[sealybobo]

Gravity can't be explained scientifically.

Of course it can:

A warping of space caused by mass within that space.

Explained. What sort of explanation are you looking for?

Why does that happen?

Gravity mysteries: What is gravity?

The Newtonian idea of gravity was nice and simple, then Einstein turned things upside down, and even that isn't the end of the story

www.newscientist.com

We don't know. Again you are describing what happens, not explaining why it happens.

As Fort Fun knows, I happen to fundamentally disagree with his (and Einstein's.. along with practically the entire current scientific status quo's..) theory regarding this (what gravity is). However, I recognize his as both a scientific theory and one having a lot of consensus in support. That equals a measure of "We knowing" by scientific definition. Having a scientifically, unfalsifiable, repeatably testable theory.. is knowing something. Certainly more than can be said for any gods. The math, at least, works out . The logic and results otherwise are where I take issue and opt for, what seems to me at least, a far more satisfying overall explanation, effectively resulting in the same math. But I'm not going to devote the next ten years required to deprogram you or anyone else here trying to explain it all. Been there, tested that idea. Doing so just proved a waste of my time.

Suffice it to say, you or "newscientist.com" declaring something a "mystery" doesn't logically qualify it as such for everyone("We"). Have you even tried Googling "Theories explaining gravity" or the equivalent, for example? Try it. I think you'll find lots to chew on.. Don't just look at the first results..

Yeah, don't waste your time trying to "deprogram" me. You can't. It's impossible, because I have met G-d. I knew he exists, because he has directly answered prayers, in real direct ways.

He's as real to me as you are. In fact, more real in some ways, because I only know you as "Grumblenuts" which is nothing. You could be anywhere, doing anything. You could be a bot, or cutting and pasting this from some other person. Who knows. And same for me, right?

But G-d to me, has directly moved in my life. He is there. He hears my prayers. He doesn't always answer how I want, but he does answer.

So... yeah, you are not going to de-program me, or whatever. Not going to happen.

I love science. I read science articles for fun. My favorite topic of choice is nuclear physics. Now I'm no expert or something, but I enjoy science.

And sure I've read articles on "Theories explaining gravity" Sure. They explain very well the math of how gravity works. They explain what gravity does. They explain very well the mechanics involved.

"Every point mass attracts every single point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is directly proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses."

Right?

But what science cannot answer is.... why? Why does this happen? We can calculate it. We can demonstrate it. We can document and describe it. But it still doesn't explain.... why?

Sure we have hypothesis. That's great. But, anyone can make a guess.

My only statement in this thread was, the OP said Science can explain everything. No... it can't. Science can do many many things, but it can't "explain everything".

Here's a thought. Use science in nature, to explain morality. You certainly don't see morality in nature. Nor does the science of the material world explain morality. So where did the idea that something can be morally right or morally wrong, if we're just animals from evolution?

I think we can use nature to explain morality. I'll cite Jane Goodall's study of chimpanzees as the natural analogy to human tribal customs that evolves into law (and which codes morality). Furthermore, we consistently see humans -- with no specific religious connotation, have survival-based laws that preclude wanton murder and thievery. Further still, we see simple indigenous tribes have better morality than industrial nations have -- for instance, many tribes have no concept of thievery because they communally share everything.

Not sure if that makes the case you think it does.

Is the Chimp making a moral judgement, or is it acting on instincts?

And saying humans with no specific religious connotation, have moral laws.. would actually support the Biblical narrative.

Remember, we Christians believe that Man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Meaning that all human beings are born with a moral compass. That compass may be heavily influenced by the culture they are in, but they have it.

As for tribes, I'm not sure if you can really conclude their morality is "better", when they have nothing to steal.

If you don't own anything, then nothing can be stolen from you. That doesn't mean your morals are better. And I don't know which specific tribes you refer to, but I don't know of any that are better to live in, than modern civilization.

There are tribes in the rain forest who don’t know the word steal or lie. Our modern civilization can’t say that.

 

[sealybobo]

A lesson I learned from others, and one I see others have learned for themselves is that belief can cause divisions and tribalism and hate/distrust for those outside of the circle of like minded believers. I do find real arrogance in that believers are often quick to point out that their conception of the faith is true and inerrant in comparison to the conceptions of others and that can be a group and/or individual bias.

While people who choose to leave the tribe are not arrogant of all, and seldom--if ever--give anyone the impression their conclusions, conceptions, and perceptions are clearly superior to those within the tribe.

Same thing is true for people who leave Scientology.

 

[Meriweather]

So I am not open minded when it comes to Christianity. I notice you can't help but push it on us.

In what way am I pushing it on you? And, are you pushing atheism on me? For my part, I see us as merely a discussion or presenting of alternate views, not a pushing of a single view.

 

[Meriweather]

Your holy book is not a history book and it is not filled with facts.

Correct, a point that was made in one of my grade school religion classes. We were taught that Bible is derived from the root of a word designating a library. The Bible, like the library has a bit of everything--biographies, fiction, non-fiction, poetry, songs, law, history, at least one play, etc. Later, we were introduced to allegory.

Is that your beef with the Bible--that it is not an encyclopedia of facts only?

 

[sealybobo]

Gravity can't be explained scientifically.

Of course it can:

A warping of space caused by mass within that space.

Explained. What sort of explanation are you looking for?

Why does that happen?

Gravity mysteries: What is gravity?

The Newtonian idea of gravity was nice and simple, then Einstein turned things upside down, and even that isn't the end of the story

www.newscientist.com

We don't know. Again you are describing what happens, not explaining why it happens.

As Fort Fun knows, I happen to fundamentally disagree with his (and Einstein's.. along with practically the entire current scientific status quo's..) theory regarding this (what gravity is). However, I recognize his as both a scientific theory and one having a lot of consensus in support. That equals a measure of "We knowing" by scientific definition. Having a scientifically, unfalsifiable, repeatably testable theory.. is knowing something. Certainly more than can be said for any gods. The math, at least, works out . The logic and results otherwise are where I take issue and opt for, what seems to me at least, a far more satisfying overall explanation, effectively resulting in the same math. But I'm not going to devote the next ten years required to deprogram you or anyone else here trying to explain it all. Been there, tested that idea. Doing so just proved a waste of my time.

Suffice it to say, you or "newscientist.com" declaring something a "mystery" doesn't logically qualify it as such for everyone("We"). Have you even tried Googling "Theories explaining gravity" or the equivalent, for example? Try it. I think you'll find lots to chew on.. Don't just look at the first results..

Yeah, don't waste your time trying to "deprogram" me. You can't. It's impossible, because I have met G-d. I knew he exists, because he has directly answered prayers, in real direct ways.

He's as real to me as you are. In fact, more real in some ways, because I only know you as "Grumblenuts" which is nothing. You could be anywhere, doing anything. You could be a bot, or cutting and pasting this from some other person. Who knows. And same for me, right?

But G-d to me, has directly moved in my life. He is there. He hears my prayers. He doesn't always answer how I want, but he does answer.

So... yeah, you are not going to de-program me, or whatever. Not going to happen.

I love science. I read science articles for fun. My favorite topic of choice is nuclear physics. Now I'm no expert or something, but I enjoy science.

And sure I've read articles on "Theories explaining gravity" Sure. They explain very well the math of how gravity works. They explain what gravity does. They explain very well the mechanics involved.

"Every point mass attracts every single point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is directly proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses."

Right?

But what science cannot answer is.... why? Why does this happen? We can calculate it. We can demonstrate it. We can document and describe it. But it still doesn't explain.... why?

Sure we have hypothesis. That's great. But, anyone can make a guess.

My only statement in this thread was, the OP said Science can explain everything. No... it can't. Science can do many many things, but it can't "explain everything".

Here's a thought. Use science in nature, to explain morality. You certainly don't see morality in nature. Nor does the science of the material world explain morality. So where did the idea that something can be morally right or morally wrong, if we're just animals from evolution?

I said everything can be explained scientifically and what can’t is unknowable.

ill give you an example. What was before the Big Bang is scientifically explainable but also something we can never know.

Humans were moral before jewdaoism and christianity right? So then since these are the only two real religions, one can conclude that humans can be moral without religion or the real god who only revealed himself first to Moses.

Do you think Moses’ parents were immoral animals?

 

[Meriweather]

I’ll say it again. I have an open mind that god may exist. But, I don’t have an open mind when it comes to any organized religions. Or I should say I have just as open a mind towards Christianity as you have for Islam or Mormonism.

Please do not forget Hinduism and Buddhism. I have friends in those as well. It is good you have an equally open mind, but I was of that opinion already.

 

[sealybobo]

So I am not open minded when it comes to Christianity. I notice you can't help but push it on us.

In what way am I pushing it on you? And, are you pushing atheism on me? For my part, I see us as merely a discussion or presenting of alternate views, not a pushing of a single view.

Christianity has no value here. Or it has the same value as Mormonism.