On Islam as a Violent Terrorist Religion

[1549]

I was watching the documentary "the Cult of the Suicide Bomber" made by a former CIA agent Robert Baer. I was not able to see the documentary in its entirety today (I will be seeing the second half on Monday), but I observed two points of interest:

1) Baer demonstrated the hatred of America inside of Iran. He went to an afternoon prayer at a University in Tehran. It happened to be the day after Americans at Guantanamo Bay were accused of desecrating the Qur'an. The man leading the prayer screamed hateful things about America including:

"They call themselves Christians, but they are lying! Death to America!"

2) A martyrdom was viewed before 1980 as any person that died for Islam. Interestingly, those that died for Iran in the war with Iraq were all martyrs. The Iraqi war was seen as a threat to Shi'ite Islam, and the first ever suicide bomber was used in that war: Ahmad Qassir, who independently decided to strap himself with explosives and jump under an Iraqi tank. When suicide bombers helped Iran win the war, Iran shamelessly promoted this new form of 'martyrdom'. They set up special 'martyr' cemetaries and holidays. Iran basically made martyrdom a religion of its own.

The movie basically displays profiles how the Iranian government is responsible for the proliferation of suicide bombing and quietly raged war with America. The bombings of the Beirut embassy and Marine base were likely orchestrated by the Iranian government.

Two conclusions that can be indirectly drawn from this film:

1) Islam rejects western culture, not Christianity. The infamous theats at Infidels in the Qu'ran could likely be directed at those who do not believe in Allah (Christians and Jews do believe in Allah, they just don't refer to God as Allah). Most scholars, theologists have been saying this along (as Judaism and Christianity are treated with respect in the Qu'ran), but I think the quote from the Tehran University could really drive the point home to the many skeptics.

2) Martyrdom is not a real Islamic concept, instead the government of Iran just portrayed martyrdom as a statement of religion. Doing so provided them with a powerful weapon. As Iran actively spread use of suicide tactics to Lebanon and Syria, it gained publicity and became a popular war tactic for all Islamic militants.

Thoughts?

 

[dilloduck]

I was watching the documentary "the Cult of the Suicide Bomber" made by a former CIA agent Robert Baer. I was not able to see the documentary in its entirety today (I will be seeing the second half on Monday), but I observed two points of interest:

1) Baer demonstrated the hatred of America inside of Iran. He went to an afternoon prayer at a University in Tehran. It happened to be the day after Americans at Guantanamo Bay were accused of desecrating the Qur'an. The man leading the prayer screamed hateful things about America including:

"They call themselves Christians, but they are lying! Death to America!"

2) A martyrdom was viewed before 1980 as any person that died for Islam. Interestingly, those that died for Iran in the war with Iraq were all martyrs. The Iraqi war was seen as a threat to Shi'ite Islam, and the first ever suicide bomber was used in that war: Ahmad Qassir, who independently decided to strap himself with explosives and jump under an Iraqi tank. When suicide bombers helped Iran win the war, Iran shamelessly promoted this new form of 'martyrdom'. They set up special 'martyr' cemetaries and holidays. Iran basically made martyrdom a religion of its own.

The movie basically displays profiles how the Iranian government is responsible for the proliferation of suicide bombing and quietly raged war with America. The bombings of the Beirut embassy and Marine base were likely orchestrated by the Iranian government.

Two conclusions that can be indirectly drawn from this film:

1) Islam rejects western culture, not Christianity. The infamous theats at Infidels in the Qu'ran could likely be directed at those who do not believe in Allah (Christians and Jews do believe in Allah, they just don't refer to God as Allah). Most scholars, theologists have been saying this along (as Judaism and Christianity are treated with respect in the Qu'ran), but I think the quote from the Tehran University could really drive the point home to the many skeptics.

2) Martyrdom is not a real Islamic concept, instead the government of Iran just portrayed martyrdom as a statement of religion. Doing so provided them with a powerful weapon. As Iran actively spread use of suicide tactics to Lebanon and Syria, it gained publicity and became a popular war tactic for all Islamic militants.

Thoughts?

I think your first conclusion is goofy.

 

[1549]

I think your first conclusion is goofy.

Because it contradicts what many posters here are steadfast on believing?

To be honest, there is little analysis involved in the first conclusion.
Fact: Christians and Jews believe in Allah (again, we say God...they say Allah...in the end it is the same being)
Fact: Christians and Jews are supposed to be treated with respect according to Muslim scripture

The film is involved with the first conclusion because there is evidence in the film that Muslims have nothing against Christianity. To repeat the quote:
"They call themselves Christians, but they are lying!" I do not have an exact quotes for the preceding lines, but the word "Godless" was used to describe America.

 

[onedomino]

What is the purpose of your post? You say that Islam rejects Western culture. Islam rejects everything that is not Islam. Are you claiming the Islam is not violent? What are they teaching you at Rutgers? Islam is successfully used all over the world to generate violence and brutality against individuals, governments, and other cultures. Let’s consider a list of countries where Islam and its concept of Jihad are currently being used to perpetrate murder and mayhem. This will be a long list; excuse me if I leave anyone out.

New York City
Canada: near miss in Toronto.
France
United Kingdom
Netherlands
Spain
Russia: Moscow, Chechnya, and elsewhere.
Turkey
Israel
Jordon
Lebanon
Algeria
Tunisia
Morocco
Darfur/Sudan
Egypt
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Somalia
Mozambique
Kenya
Tanzania
Iraq
Iran
Kyrgyzstan
Pakistan
Afghanistan
India
Sir Lanka
Thailand
Philippines
Indonesian
Western China

 

[José]

The only reason the palestinian armed struggle is portrayed as "perpetrating murder and mayhem" is because they are arabs fighting for their homeland in the Middle East.

If they were americans fighting for any part of the US they would be called freedom fighters, no matter how many civilians were killed in the process.

Einstein said it best:

"Only two things are infinite: the universe and the stupidity of a super patriotic american clown and I'm not sure about the former."

 

[Dr Grump]

What is the purpose of your post? You say the Islam rejects Western culture. Islam rejects everything that is not Islam. Are you claiming the Islam is not violent? What are they teaching you at Rutgers? Islam is successfully used all over the world to generate violence and brutality to individuals, governments, and other cultures. Let’s consider a list of countries where Islam and its concept of Jihad are currently being used to perpetrate murder and mayhem. This will be a long list; excuse me if I leave anyone out.

New York City
Canada: near miss in Toronto.
France
United Kingdom
Netherlands
Spain
Russia: Moscow, Chechnya, and elsewhere.
Turkey
Israel
Jordon
Lebanon
Algeria
Tunisia
Morocco
Darfur/Sudan
Egypt
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Somalia
Mozambique
Kenya
Tanzania
Iraq
Iran
Kyrgyzstan
Pakistan
Afghanistan
India
Sir Lanka
Thailand
Philippines
Indonesian
Western China

Fundamentalist Islam. Not everyday Islam. Huge difference. Jim Jones said he was a Christian. Did he represent Christianity?

As far as I know the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka are Tamils (hindu). Tanzania and Kenya were one offs. Both those countries do not have a history prior or post 1998 of Islamic extremism. Chechyna and Western China Muslims want independence from those countries (can you say Boston Tea Party?). Again, those European countries mentioned have the odd incidence perpetrated by a minority of Muslims. As for the rest, they are Muslim countries, so it is no surprise they are on the list. As long as they live in the dark ages, so they will be forever lost in that passage of time....

 

[onedomino]

Fundamentalist Islam. Not everyday Islam. Huge difference. Jim Jones said he was a Christian. Did he represent Christianity?

As far as I know the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka are Tamils (hindu). Tanzania and Kenya were one offs. Both those countries do not have a history prior or post 1998 of Islamic extremism. Chechyna and Western China Muslims want independence from those countries (can you say Boston Tea Party?). Again, those European countries mentioned have the odd incidence perpetrated by a minority of Muslims. As for the rest, they are Muslim countries, so it is no surprise they are on the list. As long as they live in the dark ages, so they will be forever lost in that passage of time....

We could not disagree more on this topic. Why does not "everyday" Islam come out and unequivocally and universally condemn terrorism and take strong positive action against it? Because in many corners of "everyday" Islam terrorism is implicitly, and sometimes explicitly, condoned. At least a third of the murderous Tamil Tigers attacking the Buddhists running Sir Lanka are Muslims. Moreover the recent suicide bombings in Sir Lanka, one of which killed more than 100 people, were the public works of the Muslim faction of the Tigers, not the Hindu component. The Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with murdering school children, killing innocents attending the theater, blowing up airliners, and destroying apartment buildings loaded with people. But these deplorable acts have all been perpetrated by Muslims from Chechnya. Nor did the Tea Party have anything to do with shooting policemen dead in the streets, or blowing up bus loads of innocent people, as the Muslim Uyghurs have done in China. Everywhere Islam comes in contact with another religion or culture there is despicable behavior, including the wanton murder of innocent women and children: Darfur, Kashmir, India, Sir Lanka, Thailand, Bali, China. And by the way, Thailand is not a Muslim country. The jihadist killers are of course Muslims from southern Thailand. Radical Islam has metastasized like a black malignancy across the planet and “everyday” Islam just sits by and recites the Koran in the local madras for murder.

 

[Dr Grump]

We could not disagree more on this topic. Why does not "everyday" Islam come out and unequivocally and universally condemn terrorism and take strong positive action against it?

Because they have no balls and they are running scared...

At least a third of the murderous Tamil Tigers attacking the Buddhists running Sir Lanka are Muslims.

Google the words "Tamil Tigers Muslim". Read the first dozen pieces then get back to me.

The Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with murdering school children, killing innocents attending the theater, blowing up airliners, and destroying apartment buildings loaded with people. But these deplorable acts have all been perpetrated by Muslims from Chechnya. Nor did the Tea Party have anything to do with shooting policemen dead in the streets, or blowing up bus loads of innocent people, as the Muslim Uyghurs have done in China.

Unfortunate that you take the most extreme and treat it as the norm. Chechnyan tactics are despicable to say the least. Ask yourself this - if Russia had let them decide their own destiny, would they have done what they did? I think not. In saying that, the kind of society they promote, doesn't bode them well. I wasn't trying to compare tactics, just point out that what they want seems to be the same that the colonies wanted back in the 18th century. Methods are untenable, of course, but nonetheless, still want the same. As for Urghurs, I just saw on the news last night Chinese border guards shooting Tibetans in cold blood trying to cross the Indian border to join the Dalai Llama. Last time I looked, those guards were not Muslims.

Everywhere Islam comes in contact with another religion or culture there is despicable behavior, including the wanton murder of innocent women and children: Darfur, Kashmir, India, Sir Lanka, Thailand, Bali, China.

Never said otherwise. I guess my main objection is, and always has been, is that people try and make out fundie Muslims are the norm. They are not. There is supposed to be 1 billion Muslims. IMO, to be the norm 500,000,001 Muslims have to be fundamental. I doubt even ten million of them are. THAT is MY point...in the long run...

And by the way, Thailand is not a Muslim country. The jihadist killers are of course Muslims from southern Thailand.

Tell me something I don't know. Thailand has bigger problems, like a coup, to deal with.

Radical Islam has metastasized like a black malignancy across the planet and “everyday” Islam just sits by and recites the Koran in the local madras for murder.

You are right about fundie Muslim, but incorrect about "everyday" Islam. Other than Afghanistan, and arguably Iran, where does fundamental Islam run a country? Libya? No. Indonesia? No. Tunisia? No. Mali? No? Morocco? No. Albania? No. Pakistan? No. Oman? No. Bahrain? No. Egypt? No. Qatar? No. Mauritania? No. Nigeria? No. UAE? No. Saudi Arabia? kinda, but they are allies, no? Djoubouti? No. Jordan? No. Turkey? No. Uzbekistan? no. Kazakstan? No. Turkmenistan? No. Kryzistan? No. Sudan? No. Malaysia? No.

 

[José]

Portraying the palestinian cause as being grounded in religion is a gross misrepresentation of reality.

Any timeline of Palestine reveals this mistake:

Birth of the palestinian cause: 1948

Creation of Hamas: 1987

The palestinian cause precedes its partial islamisation in almost 40 years.

Until 1987 the palestinian resistance movement was rigorously secular. All historians are in agreement on this.

The partial islamisation of the palestinian cause was an unfortunate development brought about by the frustration of the palestinian people with the stalemate and encouraged by Israel to undermine the PLO.

You don’t have to take my word for it.

The frustration that led to the creation of Hamas is clearly expressed in its chart:

Article Thirteen:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Had the legitimate grievances of the palestinian people been adressed in a fair manner during the 50’s, 60’s or 70’s and there wouldn’t even be a palestinian cause to be partially islamised in the 80’s anymore.

By adressing their legitimate grievances I mean the establishment of an international protectorate that conciliate the security needs of the jewish population with the right of the palestinian people to move freely and live anywhere they want in their historical homeland.

But don’t fool yourself, the palestinian issue was, is and will always be a nationalist cause not a religious one.

It existed well before the founding of Hamas and will continue to exist after it’s gone.

The palestinian issue is about the right of palestinian arabs to live in western Palestine.

But nothing I said invalidates your point about muslim fundamentalism.

As I’ve said many times before, the end of religiously inspired violence and anti americanism in the muslim world will only be achieved through structural changes in the societies of Saudi Arabia and Iran (as well as Palestine).

 

[José]

Comment by onedomino
Can't you think of any better insuly than "super patriot?"

Originally posted by GunnyL
As far as your slur against Americans

Let’s clarify this whole SPAC story once and for all

I don’t use this expression without burden of conscience.

The members of the US Message Board are such a polite lot (won’t cite any names cuz I’m referring to practically everybody) that I can’t help but feel bad everytime I use this derogatory expression.

But try to put yourself in my shoes for a moment, domino, Gunny...

It’s an extremely frustrating intellectual exercise to try and debate international politics with people who go into a shaking frenzy everytime they hear the “Star Spangled Banner” : )

 

[José]

But let me say that you are not the worst case of SPAC, domino.

On the contrary... you are the first one to ask for restraint whenever those super patriotic american clowns bordering on insanity start their mantra:

“Nuke the Middle East, blah, blah, blah”

 

[José]

And I also get upset when I use this expression because people like Grump and 1549 do not deserve to see me using this expression even though they obviously know I’m not referring to them.

They know the difference between someone who judges the US in a fair manner and the “I’m for my country and its allies right or wrong” crowd.

Grump, in particular, has stated what I consider the definitive evaluation/statement about the US.

I don’t remember your exact words Grump but it was something like this:

“I’m fed up with people all over the world blaming the US for everything. I think the US is right most of the times.”

Grump, buddy, you are not alone.

It also hurts me to see so many people around the world demonising the US.

It’s not envy as many posters have proposed in previous threads.

This is the root of 90% of anti americanism, son:

When an international crisis arises (like Kosovo), people all over the world witness the most powerful nation in the world bombing countries that have no way of defending themselves.

90% of the world population immediately imagine their own countries in the shoes of the country being attacked and this is the source of almost all anti americanism in the world.

People don’t ask a series of question they should ask about the bombing:

Is (let’s say) Serbia commiting war crimes?

Is the US protecting an even weaker population from state sponsored violence?

People don’t ask themselves these pertinent questions, Grump, they simply imagine their country being bombed, having its soveireignty disrespected.

So the US projects, in the eyes of the world, the image of a schoolyard bully, bombing small, defenceless countries like Serbia.

Take it from me, son.

As a non US citizen I’m in a position to assure you this is, by far, the main source of anti americanism in the world.

These individuals who judge the US based on a bombing campaign or any other isolated event are also clowns, Grump.

They are in fact the mirror image of the super patriotic american clowns of this message board.

The anti american clowns are blinded by their anti americanism just like the SPAC’s are blinded by their super patriotism.

Both groups are completely unable to judge the US in a fair manner.

To judge America or any other country in a fair manner you have to weigh two basic factors:

1)– what America is: which values does America stands for? What are the ideology behind America?

2)- what America does: what is the practical influence of America in the world?

Let’s answer the first question:

America stand for democracy, freedom of press, secularism, free enterprise, the rule of law.

So we haven’t found anything to blame America as far as its values are concerned.

Now let’s answer the second question: what America does, what is its influence in the world.

A classical example in which the economic interests of America coincided with the promotion of its values was America’s relationship with the Soviet Bloc and China.

A classical example in which the economic interests of America did not coincide with the promotion of its values was the alliance with Saudi Arabia (at least, until 9/11).

So any balanced assestment of America’s behaviour during most of this century reveals the fact that whenever the economic interest of America coincides with the promotion of its values America acts as a force for good in the world.

And thankfully, the first example (Soviet Bloc and China) corresponds to the vast majority of cases.

So we can conclude that America stands for the values of open societies and, for the most part, its actions promote these values throughout the world.

This conclusion is in perfect agreement with your previous statement:

“I’m fed up with people all over the world blaming the US for everything. I think the US is right most of the times.”

I couldn’t have said it better myself...

It’s really gratifying to see a young man with no formal education in political science like you (I assume) thinking like a real political scientist : )

 

[José]

The social pressure exerted on young americans to become super patriotic clowns is enormous, much greater than in most countries.

So it’s really moving to see two young men like Grump and 1549, two young americans who were somehow able to summon enough strength to reject the super patriotic indoctrination and brainwashing they were subjected to and manage to judge their country of birth in a fair manner.

They are the living proof that an american citizen can be proud of his country without becoming a clown.

They have my deepest admiration and I urge them to continue to reject all kinds of clownish political thinking and keep on judging the US the fair way all countries deserve to be judged.

 

[dmp]

Fact: Christians and Jews believe in Allah (again, we say God...they say Allah...in the end it is the same being)

Not Fact. Christians and Jews believe in God. Allah is NOT compatable with God. The Allah of the Koran is 180 degrees from the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Me.

 

[theHawk]

Portraying the palestinian cause as being grounded in religion is a gross misrepresentation of reality.


..........



There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

The thread is about Islam and violence. Palestine is a perfect example of that, just for the reason you pointed out.



There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad
This is the big mistake that Palestinians have made in regards to Israel. *If* Palestinians were capable of massive peaceful demonstrations protesting the wrongful creation of Israel by the UN on Arab soil then they'd probably get alot more sympathy from people like me. But when they declare "Jihad" and start blowing up women in buses, that is not something most people in this world are going to condone. And quite frankly, if they can't form a real army and take the land back by force then they don't have any right to cry about it. Resorting to terrorism only shows how cowardly and weak they are.

 

[glockmail]

...

Einstein said it best:

"Only two things are infinite: the universe and the stupidity of a super patriotic american clown and I'm not sure about the former."

I don't think Einstein ever said that.

 

[glockmail]

....
Fact: Christians and Jews are supposed to be treated with respect according to Muslim scripture
.....

What part of this is difficult for you to understand:

Koran 2:191-2 Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.)

 

[dilloduck]

What part of this is difficult for you to understand:

Cmon, Glock. You're just misunderstanding what the Koran really means to say! It's that ignorant conservative coming out in ya--not your fault.

 

[onedomino]

Good job hijacking 1549's thread Jose, but then I suppose hijacking comes naturally to someone of your political sympathies.

 

[glockmail]

Cmon, Glock. You're just misunderstanding what the Koran really means to say! It's that ignorant conservative coming out in ya--not your fault.

You're right. I should be ashamed. I'm so simple minded.