Of Salvation

[Shazbot]

A branch from the thread entitled "Government-Christian Groups Lock Horns over Anti-Conversion Bill"

You have said a mouthful. Let's go over your points separately.

1) What happens to the countless millions upon millions who were born before Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem or those who never had the opportunity of hearing about him while alive on earth?

Apparently Christianity believes that these folks live in a kind of limbo, somewhere between heaven and hell.

2) What about the millions of Jews murdered in the holocaust or the millions of non-Christians who were murdered in countries and places like the mountains of Loas or the Himalaya mountains.

Obviously, they had their chance to believe on Jesus Christ of Nazareth and therefore are burning in fires and brimstone of hell.

3) Maybe those people who never accepted Jesus Christ as their savior during their life after the resurrection will have a chance to accept Jesus Christ in that limbo I was talking about. So if that be the case, why be a Christian at all since you will get a chance to believe on him after you are long dead and hanging around in limbo?

4) Then if mass murderers accept Jesus before they die, they may or may not get salvation. St. Paul said that we are not saved because we do good works. We are saved because of Christ's death for us which is received through faith.

The Scriptural Proof:


Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:20-28; Galatians 2:16, 21; Matthew 5:48; Galatians 3:10; Galatians 5:1-5; James 2:10; Romans 10:1-13; Titus 3:4-7; John 3:16, 36; John 6:40; John 1:29; Acts 16:30-31.

So works (murder) are not what saves men but simply the belief in Christ's death for forgiveness from ALL Sin.

For me the answer is very simple. No one is saved by the sacrifice of another person or a god's sacrificial death. For me, everyone is responsible for their own deeds and works on earth. Everyone knows from the TEN commandments the difference between good and evil things. Everything in life is a choice and whatever happens to men after death is not our concern or business for we are nothing more than consciousness who has the free will to make our choices in this short life on this little planet at the edge of the milky way.

And you say that I said a mouthful! Ok, point by point, eh?

1)It is held that Christ's sacrifice was infinite and eternal - applying to those alive during His time, to those who would yet be born, and to all those who ever had lived. The Atonement of Christ is therefore retroactive. Indeed, in my faith, the very Law of Moses, apart from being a moral code to prepare the Israelites, was a symbol of the Great and Last sacrifice to be made by Christ.

2)I have already stated my views on this matter. Those who did/do not have the opportunity to accept the Gospel of Christ in this life, will have said opportunity in the life hereafter.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6 (KJV)
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

3) The concept of receiving the opportunity of Salvation in the life hereafter is not a second-chance theory. If I know all about Christ, but reject His Gospel, then I cannot hope to get a second chance after I die.

4) A common misconception. Many people take individual scriptures which focus on the fact that faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation (which it is), and translate it as meaning that this faith is the only requirement for salvation. What about all the times Jesus taught his disciples what they should do and how they should act? What about following the commandments? Can I say that I have faith, accept Christ, and then not follow the commandments? I think not. Then, there is this scripture:

James 2:17-20 (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without they works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Basically, true faith in Christ is the primary requisite - salvation is a gift, not something that we can earn through our merits. However, we have to exercise that faith, and show God that we are willing to follow Him and do all He has asked of us. Right there is where good works come in.

-Douglas

 

[ajwps]

[I=Shazbot]A branch from the thread entitled "Government-Christian Groups Lock Horns over Anti-Conversion Bill"

And you say that I said a mouthful! Ok, point by point, eh?
1)It is held that Christ's sacrifice was infinite and eternal - applying to those alive during His time, to those who would yet be born, and to all those who ever had lived. The Atonement of Christ is therefore retroactive. Indeed, in my faith, the very Law of Moses, apart from being a moral code to prepare the Israelites, was a symbol of the Great and Last sacrifice to be made by Christ.

It is held about Christ's eternal sacrifice but by whom was it held? So you believe that the very law of Moses was somehow nothing more than a preparation for the Israelites (not gentiles) getting prepared for Christ's sacrifice. Powerful reasoning.

Would you agree that Christ's first coming was somehow a symbol of a second coming of Christ when he met Joseph Smith in Philadelphia, PA?

It is held that somehow this second coming was a foreshadowing a brand new covenant with his new church of the Latter Day Saints. By the same ones who held Christs first eternal sacrifice no less.

Can you follow your reasoning here?

2)I have already stated my views on this matter. Those who did/do not have the opportunity to accept the Gospel of Christ in this life, will have said opportunity in the life hereafter.

So after a non-believer is dead and ready to understand that an afterlife and a Creator are no longer in question, then Jesus will come along and preach to this new choir of the lost dead who will believe him. I'll bet it won't take much convincing.

3) The concept of receiving the opportunity of Salvation in the life hereafter is not a second-chance theory. If I know all about Christ, but reject His Gospel, then I cannot hope to get a second chance after I die.

Oops my mistake. I see, this chance for salvation is gonna be offered for a 'one-time opportunity' only to those who weren't told of this miraculous god in life on earth or lived before he was born. That sounds fair to me.

4) A common misconception. Many people take individual scriptures which focus on the fact that faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation (which it is), and translate it as meaning that this faith is the only requirement for salvation. What about all the times Jesus taught his disciples what they should do and how they should act? What about following the commandments? Can I say that I have faith, accept Christ, and then not follow the commandments? I think not. Then, there is this scripture: Basically, true faith in Christ is the primary requisite - salvation is a gift, not something that we can earn through our merits. However, we have to exercise that faith, and show God that we are willing to follow Him and do all He has asked of us. Right there is where good works come in.

Okay

For Salvation with Christ

1) faith in Christ
+
2) Christ told his disciples what and how to do things. (The Jewish disciples had to be aware of the Ten Commandments before Jesus advised them of same).

GIFT OF SALVATION

salvation is a gift, not something that we can earn through our merits.

and

Right there is where good works come in.

So Christ asks you to do good works but they are not necessary for salvation. Why do good works at all if they are not necessary?

This is also the differentiation between Christianity and Judaism.

Christianity is a religion of CREED (for reward of paradise with Christ)

Judaism is a religion of DEED (with no guarantee of a prize or reward in any afterlife)

I think I will take the one with no guarantee for doing good deeds and only for the happiness in doing them without a treat at the end.

 

[Shazbot]

It is held about Christ's eternal sacrifice but by whom was it held?

It is held by myself and many other like Christians. The idea is based on the fact that God is a just and fair God, and is no respecter of persons. Those who live after Christ are no more special than those who lived before. Furthermore, it is supported by such scriptures as 1 Cor. 15:22.

So you believe that the very law of Moses was somehow nothing more than a preparation for the Israelites (not gentiles) getting prepared for Christ's sacrifice. Powerful reasoning.

Had they been ready and prepared for it, the Israelites would have lived by a form of the Gospel which Jesus taught, only looking forward to Christ instead of looking back on His sacrifice. We see from the history of the Israelites that the Law of Moses served as a baser law which they were ready for, which would prepare the people as a whole for the Gospel Jesus would teach. By living the Law, the Israelites would be able to understand better the coming of the Son of God. Furthermore, they would be a light to all the gentiles around them, showing them that the God that attended the Israelites was and is the one true God.

Would you agree that Christ's first coming was somehow a symbol of a second coming of Christ when he met Joseph Smith in Philadelphia, PA?

Not at all. BTW it was in New York, not Pennsylvania.

It is held that somehow this second coming was a foreshadowing a brand new covenant with his new church of the Latter Day Saints. By the same ones who held Christs first eternal sacrifice no less.

The Church of Latter Day Saints does not claim any new covenant with God - only the restoration of the gospel as it was formerly had by the early church of Christ. The covenant is the same one made to Noah and to Abraham.

So after a non-believer is dead and ready to understand that an afterlife and a Creator are no longer in question, then Jesus will come along and preach to this new choir of the lost dead who will believe him. I'll bet it won't take much convincing.

That depends on the knowledge of said "new choir." If I die right now, considering I am a non-believer, why would I suddenly understand that an afterlife with my Creator is out of the question? Remember that as I placed my views before, this opportunity to accept the Gospel after death takes place before the time of Judgement before God.

Oops my mistake. I see, this chance for salvation is gonna be offered for a 'one-time opportunity' only to those who weren't told of this miraculous god in life on earth or lived before he was born. That sounds fair to me.

Admittedly, I am sure it is all a bit more of a complex situation, which only God is capable of judging. Here's a question I have always had - at what point does a person actually reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I used to be one of those missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There were lots of people who ran away after simply seeing us. There were others who just slammed doors in our faces. There were others who listened to us and then said no. There were others who listened to us and seriously contemplated the issue and then said no. Then there were others who were members of the church, and then fell away afterwards. I leave it to God to be the judge. All He has revealed is that Christ is the only way to salvation, and that all will have the opportunity to accept that fact.

So Christ asks you to do good works but they are not necessary for salvation. Why do good works at all if they are not necessary?

Who said that good works are not necessary? I hold it quite firm that if I clearly understand who Christ is, and have true faith in him, and don't act on it, then it avails me nothing. I must have faith and hope that Christ died for me, but I must also exercise and show that faith through my actions.

This is also the differentiation between Christianity and Judaism.
Christianity is a religion of CREED (for reward of paradise with Christ)
Judaism is a religion of DEED (with no guarantee of a prize or reward in any afterlife)

The concept of a reward is very real, and may be a driving factor behind many of us in our attempts to be righteous. However, I think that a truly Christlike person will live righteously out of love for God and for fellow men.

-Douglas

 

[ajwps]

It is held by myself and many other like Christians. The idea is based on the fact that God is a just and fair God, and is no respecter of persons. Those who live after Christ are no more special than those who lived before. Furthermore, it is supported by such scriptures as 1 Cor. 15:22.

Did you say that G-d is a just and fair G-d and no respector of persons. And G-d gave mankind the Ten Commandments which were His own moral and ethical laws of life. G-d said, "Thou shalt not MURDER."

Then you say that G-d violated His own Commandment by ordering the crucifixion MURDER of His son on the cross of Calvary. What kind of just and fair G-d violates His own Commandments of life for mankind? Does a just and fair G-d need to kill His own offspring to somehow justify the sinful nature of mankind that were placed in His flawed human creations? That is not the kind of G-d that I can find in the Eternal Creator.

Had they been ready and prepared for it, the Israelites would have lived by a form of the Gospel which Jesus taught, only looking forward to Christ instead of looking back on His sacrifice. We see from the history of the Israelites that the Law of Moses served as a baser law which they were ready for, which would prepare the people as a whole for the Gospel Jesus would teach. By living the Law, the Israelites would be able to understand better the coming of the Son of God. Furthermore, they would be a light to all the gentiles around them, showing them that the God that attended the Israelites was and is the one true God.

Ready for it you say? Why there was no warning of such a momentous event in the Bible before the Gospels! Even Jesus himself never claimed being a sacrificial diety during his lifetime but only after many years did a pretence Jew Paul make this claim and in the same breath condemned those who knew Jesus. The same Jews who were Jesus' father, mother, brothers, disciples, apostles, friends, relatives even his carpenter customers. And from Paul the same condemnation of Jewish Jesus and all their progeny throughout time. Paul put the words into Jesus' mouth in his Gpspels that Christ and the Jews were sons of Satan and worthy of being cursed throughout time. No Jesus would hang his head in shame if he knew what had been claimed for him so many years after his death like so many of his brothers. You go ahead and follow the Gospel's claims for Jesus but I choose to follow the Father.

Not at all. BTW it was in New York, not Pennsylvania.
The Church of Latter Day Saints does not claim any new covenant with God - only the restoration of the gospel as it was formerly had by the early church of Christ. The covenant is the same one made to Noah and to Abraham.

You say a restoration Covenant given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was also given to Joseph Smith? You say Noah received a covenant from G-d?

"The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ." The Book of Mormon is the new covenant of Jesus Christ. From the Gospel of the Mormons:

"And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written-" (84:57)

The following is a picture representation of the gold plates Jesus gave to Joseph Smith in the USA (New York, Philadelphia ?)

That depends on the knowledge of said "new choir." If I die right now, considering I am a non-believer, why would I suddenly understand that an afterlife with my Creator is out of the question? Remember that as I placed my views before, this opportunity to accept the Gospel after death takes place before the time of Judgement before God.

Were you born a Christian, raised up in the church of Jesus Christ and taught all your beliefs in salvation theology by your parents and your church? If so, why would you not recognize the divinity of Vishnu or the monkey god? They are as real to their believers as Jesus and his free gift of salvation is to you? Other than the Gospel versions with its inclusion of the Old Testament, how would you know about Judgement time or the resurrection of the dead? How can you save yourself for eternity if not for the sacrificial death of a god? How many ancient g-ds do you think were crucified just like Jesus Christ?

Admittedly, I am sure it is all a bit more of a complex situation, which only God is capable of judging. Here's a question I have always had - at what point does a person actually reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I used to be one of those missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There were lots of people who ran away after simply seeing us. There were others who just slammed doors in our faces. There were others who listened to us and then said no. There were others who listened to us and seriously contemplated the issue and then said no. Then there were others who were members of the church, and then fell away afterwards. I leave it to God to be the judge. All He has revealed is that Christ is the only way to salvation, and that all will have the opportunity to accept that fact.

How many of those people doors opened to you accepted the Latter Day Saints New Covenant with Jesus Christ? Do you know that unless your name is inscribed in the roles kept by the Mormons below their mountain can never be saved even by accepting Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

Why is it that Christians are singularly concerned with their own salvation after death instead of how to live the gift of this life in righteousness for its own reward? You have accepted the words of St. Paul of Tarsus who curses all other non-believers and I will accept my existence as a gift with which I have the opportunity to follow my G-d and His laws of mercy, justice and charity. Not a hard decision.

Who said that good works are not necessary? I hold it quite firm that if I clearly understand who Christ is, and have true faith in him, and don't act on it, then it avails me nothing. I must have faith and hope that Christ died for me, but I must also exercise and show that faith through my actions.

That is a very confusing point in the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Paul says good works are dead and cannot save you and then he says believing in Jesus Christ must include good works. VERY CONFUSING.....

Yes you must HOPE that Christ died for you because you have now a very large vested interest in this theology of salvation in the sweet bye-and-bye. Think about it for a second. If you are wrong about Jesus dying for you and your sins, you will have only your actions toward others and to G-d Himself to answer for in that same sweet bye-and-bye.

The concept of a reward is very real, and may be a driving factor behind many of us in our attempts to be righteous. However, I think that a truly Christlike person will live righteously out of love for God and for fellow men.

Have you ever heard of the Pavlov's dog effect? Many variations of this experiment demonstrates that animals can be made to do actions (or in this case beliefs) in the anticipation of a reward or treat at the end of the action.

From an outside perspective of Christianity, this is exactly what the Gospels and Pavlov have in common.

G-d created everything including you and me. Whatever happens after death is in His hands and somehow I don't think He meant for humans to jump through hoops or accept a man-god son for a treat or reward in that great beyond.

NO OFFENSE MEANT TO YOUR BELIEFS

 

[dilloduck]

AJ if God made the jews to be alight unto the people, yours if fading. Your whole goal in your last post was to desecrate the Christian religion.

 

[ajwps]

AJ if God made the jews to be alight unto the people, yours if fading. Your whole goal in your last post was to desecrate the Christian religion.

Actually my last post was never meant to desecrate Christianity but actually to place a little light unto those who read these posts. There was no intent to convert or denigrate anyone's beliefs but was actually meant to give some insight to those who claim skepticism about an ultimate knowledge of everything.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Does a just and fair G-d need to kill His own offspring to somehow justify the sinful nature of mankind that were placed in His flawed human creations?

It is the logic of all sacrifice. Why does a just and fair god need to kill innocent animals and burn the flesh for apparently no logical reason. See Leviticus.

We just decided to move the sacrifice to backstory and eliminate a lot of gore in the story present.

It is a GOOD BOOK.

 

[dilloduck]

Actually my last post was never meant to desecrate Christianity but actually to place a little light unto those who read these posts. There was no intent to convert or denigrate anyone's beliefs but was actually meant to give some insight to those who claim skepticism about an ultimate knowledge of everything.

Well hopefully you can convert some people into your way of thinking by giving them insight!

 

[ajwps]

It is the logic of all sacrifice. Why does a just a fair god need to kill innocent animals and burn the flesh for apparently no logical reason. See Leviticus.

The reason Jews were commanded to bring animal sacrifices and not HUMAN sacrifices. The purpose of animal sacrifice was to reject idolatry (belief in other gods). In ancient times the Egyptians worshiped lambs. The Kasdiyim people worshiped goats and the people of Hodo worshiped cattle. One of G-d's reasons for sacrificing these animal gods was for the Jewish people to reject this type of idolatry. Human sacrifice is an abomination to G-d and yet He would send a human man-god to be sacrificed? Not likely.....

We just decided move the sacrifice to backstory and eliminate a lot of gore in the story present.

Did we eliminate a lot of gore in the Gospel? Did you see Mel Gibson's version of the "Passion of the Christ." Not much gore there don't you think?

It is a GOOD FICTIONAL BOOK.

 

[ajwps]

Well hopefully you can convert some people into your way of thinking by giving them insight!

Only thinking people are capable of insight.....

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The reason Jews were commanded to bring animal sacrifices and not HUMAN sacrifices. The purpose of animal sacrifice was to reject idolatry (belief in other gods). In ancient times the Egyptians worshiped lambs. The Kasdiyim people worshiped goats and the people of Hodo worshiped cattle. One of G-d's reasons for sacrificing these animal gods was for the Jewish people to reject this type of idolatry.

You could just show a rejection of idolatry by NOT worshipping idols. It's not logical to command animals be killed for this reason. Just Don't worship idols. Actually the sacrifice stuff is just a throwback to the animistic desert cults of the surrounding area at the time. Civilization takes time, and logical patches such as this are needed to bridge the gap.

Human sacrifice is an abomination to G-d and yet He would send a human man-god to be sacrificed? Not likely.....

In a way it's a theological patch like your sacrifice one, to undo the barbaric and inconvenient levitic messiness of daily life.

Did we eliminate a lot of gore in the Gospel? Did you see Mel Gibson's version of the "Passion of the Christ." Not much gore there don't you think?

But the gore is moved out of daily life and into the mind, made symbolic. Are you still doing your daily animal sacrifices at the temple?

It is a GOOD FICTIONAL BOOK.

We get it. We get it. Judaism = real. christianity = fake.

 

[ajwps]

You could just show a rejection of idolatry by NOT worshipping idols. It's not logical to command animals be killed for this reason. Just Don't worship idols. Actually the sacrifice stuff is just a throwback to the animistic desert cults of the surrounding area at the time. Civilization takes time, and logical patches such as this are needed to bridge the gap.

You are asking me and not G-d why He commanded animal sacrifice? So you think that animal sacrifice is just a throwback to animistic desert cults of the surrounding areas of the time.

Lets see to what early god crucifixions are also a throwback.

CRUCIFIXION OF GOD CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO GOD SAKIA, 600 B.C.
GOD THAMMUZ OF SYRIA CRUCIFIED, 1160 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF WITTOBA GOD OF THE TELINGONESIC, 552 B.C.
GOD IAO OF NEPAUL CRUCIFIED, 622 B.C.
GOD HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.
QUEXALCOTE GOD OF MEXICO CRUCIFIED, 587 B.C.
SAVIOR QUIRINUS OF ROME CRUCIFIED, 506 B.C.
GOD AESCHYLUS PROMETHEUS CRUCIFIED, 547 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS GOD OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF GOD INDRA OF TIBET, 725 B.C.
GOD ALCESTOS OF EURIPIDES CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
GOD ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.
GOD CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.
GOD BALI OF ORISSA CRUCIFIED, 725 B.C.
GOD MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.

And there is a common thread in ALL of these pre-Christian god crucifixions.

having been conceived and brought forth by a virgin.
their lifes were sought by the reigning king.
they were of royal blood, and mother being of kingly descent.
"put to death by wicked hands" -- i.e., crucified.
At mortal exit the whole earth was enveloped in darkness, as in the case of Christ, Chrishna, and Prometheus.
finally all resurrected, and ascends back to heaven.

What are the chances of these coincidences from before Christ

In a way it's a theological patch like your sacrifice one, to undo the barbaric and inconvenient levitic messiness of daily life.

How barbaric was it to crucify a man-god repeated over and over and over again. Messy business that...

But the gore is moved out of daily life and into the mind, made symbolic. Are you still doing your daily animal sacrifices at the temple?

Sorry but G-d commanded animal sacrifice only at the Temple Mount altar. Since the time of the 2nd Temple's destruction prayer and repentence has sufficied.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You are asking me and not G-d why He commanded animal sacrifice? So you think that animal sacrifice is just a throwback to animistic desert cults of the surrounding areas of the time.

Lets see to what early god crucifixions are also a throwback.

CRUCIFIXION OF GOD CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO GOD SAKIA, 600 B.C.
GOD THAMMUZ OF SYRIA CRUCIFIED, 1160 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF WITTOBA GOD OF THE TELINGONESIC, 552 B.C.
GOD IAO OF NEPAUL CRUCIFIED, 622 B.C.
GOD HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.
QUEXALCOTE GOD OF MEXICO CRUCIFIED, 587 B.C.
SAVIOR QUIRINUS OF ROME CRUCIFIED, 506 B.C.
GOD AESCHYLUS PROMETHEUS CRUCIFIED, 547 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS GOD OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF GOD INDRA OF TIBET, 725 B.C.
GOD ALCESTOS OF EURIPIDES CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
GOD ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.
GOD CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.
GOD BALI OF ORISSA CRUCIFIED, 725 B.C.
GOD MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.

And there is a common thread in ALL of these pre-Christian god crucifixions.

having been conceived and brought forth by a virgin.
their lifes were sought by the reigning king.
they were of royal blood, and mother being of kingly descent.
"put to death by wicked hands" -- i.e., crucified.
At mortal exit the whole earth was enveloped in darkness, as in the case of Christ, Chrishna, and Prometheus.
finally all resurrected, and ascends back to heaven.

What are the chances of these coincidences from before Christ

But the real burning question is: What about their foreskins?

How barbaric was it to crucify a man-god repeated over and over and over again. Messy business that...

No. It happened once. The blood festival of biblically prescribed judaism is something altogether different.

Sorry but G-d commanded animal sacrifice only at the Temple Mount altar. Since the time of the 2nd Temple's destruction prayer and repentence has sufficied.

Why? Convenience? Your faith too messy for ya? Sounds like a patch.

 

[ajwps]

But the real burning question is: What about their foreskins?

You'll have to ask Jesus that question when you meet him on the other side of the River Jordan.

No. It happened once. The blood festival of biblically prescribed judaism is something altogether different.

Apparently Jesus has been crucified over and over and over again on the Friday anniversary of the Mel Gibson passion every year of every century. Actually the biblically proscribed circumcision at the eight day after birth is almost blood-less. But one drop of blood is required to be seen for the brit milah to be according to Jewish law.

Why? Convenience? Your faith too messy for ya? Sounds like a patch.

No not at all. The Creator Himself ordered this one place for an altar to make offerings and supplications. God said to Abraham, "Take, I beg of you, your son, your only son, whom you love, Yitzhak, and get yourself to the land of Moriah and offer him up there as an offering on one of the mountains on which I will tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

On Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, Abraham nearly offered his only son Isaac as a sacrifice. Note that G-d prevented any human sacrifices to Him. When Abraham raises his hand to slaughter Isaac, who has been bound to the altar, an angel of God tells Abraham not to kill the boy and informs him that he has passed God's test of faith. The story of Abraham's binding of Isaac is seen as the supreme example of faith in God and willingness to obey the will of G-d.

Messy, I wouldn't know but hopefully the Temple will be rebuilt where G-d commanded and we all will know of the sacrifices as prescribed the L-rd G-d.

By the way, if Jesus proves to be just another crucified god, you might get saved by another listed above.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Apparently Jesus has been crucified over and over and over again on the Friday anniversary of the Mel Gibson passion every year of every century.

I don't know what you're referring to with this Mel Gibson reference. As far as I know, christ was crucified once.

Actually the biblically proscribed circumcision at the eight day after birth is almost blood-less. But one drop of blood is required to be seen for the brit milah to be according to Jewish law.

I'm talking about the animal sacrifice to get forgiveness of sins from god, as outlined in leviticus. The briss is not gory. But that wasn't the issue.

No not at all. The Creator Himself ordered this one place for an altar to make offerings and supplications. God said to Abraham, "Take, I beg of you, your son, your only son, whom you love, Yitzhak, and get yourself to the land of Moriah and offer him up there as an offering on one of the mountains on which I will tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

On Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, Abraham nearly offered his only son Isaac as a sacrifice. Note that G-d prevented any human sacrifices to Him. When Abraham raises his hand to slaughter Isaac, who has been bound to the altar, an angel of God tells Abraham not to kill the boy and informs him that he has passed God's test of faith. The story of Abraham's binding of Isaac is seen as the supreme example of faith in God and willingness to obey the will of G-d.

That's a nice story. But god accepted jesus as a sacrifice. This time it was ok. God said.

Messy, I wouldn't know but hopefully the Temple will be rebuilt where G-d commanded and we all will know of the sacrifices as prescribed the L-rd G-d.

By the way, if Jesus proves to be just another crucified god, you might get saved by another listed above.

If I'm in The Elect? Let me go flail myself.

 

[musicman]

AJ:

To paraphrase the George Bush campaign ad, "There's what AJ says, and then there's what AJ does".

You claim that the Mel Gibson movie, "The Passion", didn't burn your ass. Yet, it's clear, from your posts, that you are absolutely obsessed with it.

You say thet you do not loathe Christianity, yet, you spend an extraordinary amount of time trying to portray Christians as fools.

If you could let go of your crippling arrogance and rapidly wearing persecution complex for five minutes, you might see that Jews, and the State of Israel, have no better friends on earth than the American Christian right. Have you checked the Democrat, secular humanist stand on American sovereignty vis-a-vis the U.N.? Have you checked the leanings of the U.N. vis-a-vis Israel? We're not asking you to smile and wave, and say, "Hello, friend", or even, God forbid, "Thanks for having our backs". How about just not attacking us?

 

[ajwps]

AJ:

To paraphrase the George Bush campaign ad, "There's what AJ says, and then there's what AJ does".

You claim that the Mel Brooks movie, "The Passion", didn't burn your ass. Yet, it's clear, from your posts, that you are absolutely obsessed with it.

You say thet you do not loathe Christianity, yet, you spend an extraordinary amount of time trying to portray Christians as fools.

If you could let go of your crippling arrogance and rapidly wearing persecution complex for five minutes, you might see that Jews, and the State of Israel, have no better friends on earth than the American Christian right. Have you checked the Democrat, secular humanist stand on American sovereignty vis-a-vis the U.N.? Have you checked the leanings of the U.N. vis-a-vis Israel? We're not asking you to smile and wave, and say, "Hello, friend", or even, God forbid, "Thanks for having our backs". How about just not attacking us?

There is no reason to loathe Christianity for it poses no real and current threat to Judasim. It is only my antipathy toward those who feel it is their duty to SAVE ME and the Jews for Christ that cause consternation and resentment.

I am aware of the American friends of Israel and the bitter American enemies of Israel. You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time being defensive and paranoid at my humble postings. Mel Gibson's movie is his own definition of the last 'passion of Christ.' Gibson's message is made clear by he and his father's own words about those Jews as illustrated very clearly in his movie.

Israel has had many, many allies in their long history. In the end, friendships can be counted on only as long as times are good. But if things begin to look glum and the US gets into a big war with Islam, there is always the Jews and Israel to blame. Just look now as many say, 'if only the US was not allied with Israel, the terrorists would have no reason to hate America.'

Many people choose to believe that falacy now and eventually the entire country can fall into the same trap. Israel, no matter how much they ally with the US must always watch their back.

The US State Department and its policies have always been an enemy of Israel.

 

[musicman]

AJ:

"Israel has had many, many alliances in their long history".

Your need to minimize, or dismiss outright, America's role in Israel's very existence is almost a reflex. Why is that?

"In the end, friendships can be counted on only as long as times are good".

Times weren't too good during the sinking of the USS Liberty. Times were downright rotten on September 11, 2001. Deride Christianity all you want - it only shows your lack of understanding. The American Christian Right will never allow this nation to abandon Israel. You ought to be rooting for us. We are besieged on all fronts by enemies foreign and domestic. It would be nice if we could live in peace with our friends.

P.S. - I hate to break this to you, but America IS in a big war with Islam.

 

[musicman]

Correction: The Liberty wasn't sunk - merely the victim of an unprovoked attack by an ally. Sorry.

 

[8236]

People woffle on about being of this religion or that religion. They fight wars about it. Do pennance and and go to church for it. Live for it. Die for it. Bla bla. When actually they know very little about it (not that I do).

The reality is that they are BORN into it. Never question it. Sleep through it (in church prob). SHEEP.

Open your eyes folks: YOU ARE YOUR OWN GOD. I am my own god.

And if that is not the case, then I swear upon whatever bit of matter that you want, that I will come and pester you when I die, and that'll be at some point in the future.