Obama's ATF to ban popular rifle ammunition

[Dan Daly]

The AR-15 stye rifle was commercially available -well- before 1986

The handguns were not.

Others handguns chambered for 5.56/.223were, and the the ammunition was OK.
There's no rational reason to change the classification now.

there is no rational when it comes to the politics of tyranny

 

[M14 Shooter]

The battle will just move to debating whether or not M855 rounds are actually "armor piercing" rounds.
.

Copper jacket, lead core, steel insert.
According to the law: Not AP

Actually, the law has classified the green tip as armor piercing.

False.

Armor piercing ammunition
18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)
A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;
or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile

Firearms - Guides - Importation Verification of Firearms - Gun Control Act Definition - Ammunition ATF

SS109 ammo dies not fit either category

 

[g5000]

The SS109/M855 round is an armor piercing round. Armor piercing rounds have been banned since the Johnson Administration.

If you read the ATF determination, the 5.56 SS109/M855 armor piercing rounds were given an exemption to the ban on armor piercing rounds in 1986, before the AR-type rifles and handguns were commercially available.

Exemptions were allowed "if the Attorney General determined that the specific ammunition at issue is 'primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.'”

Since the AR-type rifles and handguns subsequently have become commercially available, the grounds for exempting the SS109/M855 rounds are no longer valid.

Uh...AR-type rifles were commercially available long before 1986. How old are you?

The issue that they are taking advantage of is that now there are actually HANDGUNS commercially available that are chambered for 5.56/.223. So it fits the political agenda of this administration to use that fact to twist the intent of the law to ban a popular rifle round, despite the fact that there is no evidence that those few handguns have been used in any sort of crime, let alone to shoot body-armor-clad police officers, not to mention that fact that ANY .223/5.56 round (and most center-fire rifle rounds in general) will penetrate the soft-armor typically worn by street cops.

First, don't mistake me as being in favor of this ban. I'm not. I am simply stating the ATF's argument. And as I acknowledged a moment ago, it is correct that the handgun is the issue, and it is also a fact the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

The rifle was available. I misspoke about that.

However, the ATF is using the handgun as the excuse to ban the ammo. And the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

 

[g5000]

The battle will just move to debating whether or not M855 rounds are actually "armor piercing" rounds.
.

Copper jacket, lead core, steel insert.
According to the law: Not AP

Actually, the law has classified the green tip as armor piercing.

False.

Armor piercing ammunition
18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)
A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;
or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile

Firearms - Guides - Importation Verification of Firearms - Gun Control Act Definition - Ammunition ATF

SS109 ammo dies not fit either category

Steel core. Watch him hit it with a hammer.

 

[g5000]

Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable

5.56 45mm NATO - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Dan Daly]

The SS109/M855 round is an armor piercing round. Armor piercing rounds have been banned since the Johnson Administration.

If you read the ATF determination, the 5.56 SS109/M855 armor piercing rounds were given an exemption to the ban on armor piercing rounds in 1986, before the AR-type rifles and handguns were commercially available.

Exemptions were allowed "if the Attorney General determined that the specific ammunition at issue is 'primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.'”

Since the AR-type rifles and handguns subsequently have become commercially available, the grounds for exempting the SS109/M855 rounds are no longer valid.

Uh...AR-type rifles were commercially available long before 1986. How old are you?

The issue that they are taking advantage of is that now there are actually HANDGUNS commercially available that are chambered for 5.56/.223. So it fits the political agenda of this administration to use that fact to twist the intent of the law to ban a popular rifle round, despite the fact that there is no evidence that those few handguns have been used in any sort of crime, let alone to shoot body-armor-clad police officers, not to mention that fact that ANY .223/5.56 round (and most center-fire rifle rounds in general) will penetrate the soft-armor typically worn by street cops.

First, don't mistake me as being in favor of this ban. I'm not. I am simply stating the ATF's argument. And as I acknowledged a moment ago, it is correct that the handgun is the issue, and it is also a fact the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

The rifle was available. I misspoke about that.

However, the ATF is using the handgun as the excuse to ban the ammo. And the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

the auto-loading handguns were not available in 86...but the single-shots like the TCC were.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Steel core.

According to the law, the round must be "constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium" or "A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile"

SS109 is not made entirely of steel.
SS109 is not larger than .22

Thus, not AP.

 

[mudwhistle]

The SS109/M855 round is an armor piercing round. Armor piercing rounds have been banned since the Johnson Administration.

If you read the ATF determination, the 5.56 SS109/M855 armor piercing rounds were given an exemption to the ban on armor piercing rounds in 1986, before the AR-type rifles and handguns were commercially available.

Exemptions were allowed "if the Attorney General determined that the specific ammunition at issue is 'primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.'”

Since the AR-type rifles and handguns subsequently have become commercially available, the grounds for exempting the SS109/M855 rounds are no longer valid.

Uh...AR-type rifles were commercially available long before 1986. How old are you?

The issue that they are taking advantage of is that now there are actually HANDGUNS commercially available that are chambered for 5.56/.223. So it fits the political agenda of this administration to use that fact to twist the intent of the law to ban a popular rifle round, despite the fact that there is no evidence that those few handguns have been used in any sort of crime, let alone to shoot body-armor-clad police officers, not to mention that fact that ANY .223/5.56 round (and most center-fire rifle rounds in general) will penetrate the soft-armor typically worn by street cops.

First, don't mistake me as being in favor of this ban. I'm not. I am simply stating the ATF's argument. And as I acknowledged a moment ago, it is correct that the handgun is the issue, and it is also a fact the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

The rifle was available. I misspoke about that.

However, the ATF is using the handgun as the excuse to ban the ammo. And the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

It was in 1993. I fired one myself. I didn't see the use of it because it only allowed on round at a time.

Obama is just trying to see what he can get away with. He'll ban this ammo and then move on to 9mm or something else. He has no right to ban this ammo anyway and my guess is another judge is gonna step on him like they did over amnesty.

 

[g5000]

Steel core.

According to the law, the round must be "constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium" or "A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile"

SS109 is not made entirely of steel.
SS109 is not larger than .22

Thus, not AP.

Tell that to the ATF. They classified the green tip as armor piercing, and then exempted it. Now they are removing the exemption.

 

[g5000]

The AR-15 handgun isn't something you can carry in your pocket. For a pistol, its freaking huge.

There's been a lot of bloviation about Obama doing "end runs". Well, THIS is what a real end run looks like.

They are using a handgun ammo ban to effectively ban a rifle.

Bogus.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The battle will just move to debating whether or not M855 rounds are actually "armor piercing" rounds.
.

Copper jacket, lead core, steel insert.
According to the law: Not AP

From the ATF determination to which I linked earlier:

Between 1986 and 2011, ATF received few exemption requests for armor piercing ammunition. In 1986, ATF exempted 5.56 mm (.223) SS109 and M855 “green tip” ammunition containing a steel core.

I cited federal law, not a bureaucratic interpretation of the law.
The law says it is not AP.
Given the text of the law, why do you believe the ATFs interpretation is correct?

 

[tyroneweaver]

well look for another rise in ammo prices

Wasn't it just a week ago the argument was whether zero was a commie

 

[M14 Shooter]

Perhaps the Obama admin's ban on rifle ammunition is legal after all.

The 2nd amendment states:

"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed if they can prove their weapons are for sporting purposes only."

Doesn't it?

You're a liar and ignorant of the law, well done.

And YOU deliberately missed his point.
What's that make you?

 

[Menerva Lindsen]

The Democrats are at it again.

Their unconstitutional attempts to ban guns having failed, now they're trying to ban ammo instead.

They seem unable to take the hint.

They seem to be basing their scheme on one of their weaker lies: That the Constitution protecting U.S. citizens' right to keep and bear arms, doesn't extend to the ammo for those arms. They actually expect people to believe the Framers who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights, would be OK with government banning ammo for the guns they protected.

How long will we let these silly people remain in office, with the power to impose laws on us?

----------------------------------------

Obama to ban bullets by executive action threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle WashingtonExaminer.com

Obama to ban bullets by executive action, threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle

By Paul Bedard | February 26, 2015 | 11:41 am

It’s started.

As promised, President Obama is using executive actions to impose gun control on the nation, targeting the top-selling rifle in the country, the AR-15 style semi-automatic, with a ban on one of the most-used AR bullets by sportsmen and target shooters.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is putting the ban on 5.56mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.

"The Obama administration was unable to ban America's most popular sporting rifle through the legislative process, so now it's trying to ban commonly owned and used ammunition through regulation," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA-ILA, the group's policy and lobby shop.

At issue is so-called “armor-piercing” ammunition, an exemption for those bullets mostly used for sport by AR-15 owners, and the recent popularity of pistol-style ARs that use the ammo.

The inexpensive 5.56 M885 ammo, commonly called green tips, have been exempt for years, as have higher caliber ammunition that also easily pierces the type of soft armor worn by police, because it’s mostly used by target shooters not criminals.

But now BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use. But, as Goodlatte noted, offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.

“This round is amongst the most commonly used in the most popular rifle design in America, the AR-15. Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet ATF has not even alleged – much less offered evidence – that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” said Goodlatte’s letter.

Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren't going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo. and a 17-year veteran police told the Springfield News-Leader. “As a police officer I'm not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It's the small gun in a guy's hand you can't see that kills you.”

Of course, he already shat on the constitution and got away with it, did anyone think that wouldnt embolden him to do it again? If so call me I have magic beans for you. The guy is a step away from announcing himself king. I blame the republicans just as much for allowing it to happen. I guess they forgot the message last election. Maybe I should vote for Clinton to remind them if I wanted democrat policy I would have simply voted for a democrat.

 

[Rexx Taylor]

The Democrats are at it again.

Their unconstitutional attempts to ban guns having failed, now they're trying to ban ammo instead.

They seem unable to take the hint.

They seem to be basing their scheme on one of their weaker lies: That the Constitution protecting U.S. citizens' right to keep and bear arms, doesn't extend to the ammo for those arms. They actually expect people to believe the Framers who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights, would be OK with government banning ammo for the guns they protected.

How long will we let these silly people remain in office, with the power to impose laws on us?

----------------------------------------

Obama to ban bullets by executive action threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle WashingtonExaminer.com

Obama to ban bullets by executive action, threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle

By Paul Bedard | February 26, 2015 | 11:41 am

It’s started.

As promised, President Obama is using executive actions to impose gun control on the nation, targeting the top-selling rifle in the country, the AR-15 style semi-automatic, with a ban on one of the most-used AR bullets by sportsmen and target shooters.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is putting the ban on 5.56mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.

"The Obama administration was unable to ban America's most popular sporting rifle through the legislative process, so now it's trying to ban commonly owned and used ammunition through regulation," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA-ILA, the group's policy and lobby shop.

At issue is so-called “armor-piercing” ammunition, an exemption for those bullets mostly used for sport by AR-15 owners, and the recent popularity of pistol-style ARs that use the ammo.

The inexpensive 5.56 M885 ammo, commonly called green tips, have been exempt for years, as have higher caliber ammunition that also easily pierces the type of soft armor worn by police, because it’s mostly used by target shooters not criminals.

But now BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use. But, as Goodlatte noted, offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.

“This round is amongst the most commonly used in the most popular rifle design in America, the AR-15. Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet ATF has not even alleged – much less offered evidence – that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” said Goodlatte’s letter.

Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren't going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo. and a 17-year veteran police told the Springfield News-Leader. “As a police officer I'm not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It's the small gun in a guy's hand you can't see that kills you.”

what next? canned foods? how will "The Children" defend themselves when local terrorists attempt to break into thier schools?

 

[Roadrunner]

The SS109/M855 round is an armor piercing round. Armor piercing rounds have been banned since the Johnson Administration.

If you read the ATF determination, the 5.56 SS109/M855 armor piercing rounds were given an exemption to the ban on armor piercing rounds in 1986, before the AR-type rifles and handguns were commercially available.

Exemptions were allowed "if the Attorney General determined that the specific ammunition at issue is 'primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.'”

Since the AR-type rifles and handguns subsequently have become commercially available, the grounds for exempting the SS109/M855 rounds are no longer valid.

Uh...AR-type rifles were commercially available long before 1986. How old are you?

The issue that they are taking advantage of is that now there are actually HANDGUNS commercially available that are chambered for 5.56/.223. So it fits the political agenda of this administration to use that fact to twist the intent of the law to ban a popular rifle round, despite the fact that there is no evidence that those few handguns have been used in any sort of crime, let alone to shoot body-armor-clad police officers, not to mention that fact that ANY .223/5.56 round (and most center-fire rifle rounds in general) will penetrate the soft-armor typically worn by street cops.

First, don't mistake me as being in favor of this ban. I'm not. I am simply stating the ATF's argument. And as I acknowledged a moment ago, it is correct that the handgun is the issue, and it is also a fact the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

The rifle was available. I misspoke about that.

However, the ATF is using the handgun as the excuse to ban the ammo. And the handgun was not commercially available in 1986.

It was in 1993. I fired one myself. I didn't see the use of it because it only allowed on round at a time.

Obama is just trying to see what he can get away with. He'll ban this ammo and then move on to 9mm or something else. He has no right to ban this ammo anyway and my guess is another judge is gonna step on him like they did over amnesty.

I had one, got it on a trade.

It was scoped.

A friend asked me to clean turtles out of his catfish pond; that sucker would hit a turtle head at 200 yards.

I didn't have much use for it, traded it off.

 

[Rexx Taylor]

The Democrats are at it again.

Their unconstitutional attempts to ban guns having failed, now they're trying to ban ammo instead.

They seem unable to take the hint.

They seem to be basing their scheme on one of their weaker lies: That the Constitution protecting U.S. citizens' right to keep and bear arms, doesn't extend to the ammo for those arms. They actually expect people to believe the Framers who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights, would be OK with government banning ammo for the guns they protected.

How long will we let these silly people remain in office, with the power to impose laws on us?

----------------------------------------

Obama to ban bullets by executive action threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle WashingtonExaminer.com

Obama to ban bullets by executive action, threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle

By Paul Bedard | February 26, 2015 | 11:41 am

It’s started.

As promised, President Obama is using executive actions to impose gun control on the nation, targeting the top-selling rifle in the country, the AR-15 style semi-automatic, with a ban on one of the most-used AR bullets by sportsmen and target shooters.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is putting the ban on 5.56mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.

"The Obama administration was unable to ban America's most popular sporting rifle through the legislative process, so now it's trying to ban commonly owned and used ammunition through regulation," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA-ILA, the group's policy and lobby shop.

At issue is so-called “armor-piercing” ammunition, an exemption for those bullets mostly used for sport by AR-15 owners, and the recent popularity of pistol-style ARs that use the ammo.

The inexpensive 5.56 M885 ammo, commonly called green tips, have been exempt for years, as have higher caliber ammunition that also easily pierces the type of soft armor worn by police, because it’s mostly used by target shooters not criminals.

But now BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use. But, as Goodlatte noted, offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.

“This round is amongst the most commonly used in the most popular rifle design in America, the AR-15. Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet ATF has not even alleged – much less offered evidence – that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” said Goodlatte’s letter.

Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren't going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo. and a 17-year veteran police told the Springfield News-Leader. “As a police officer I'm not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It's the small gun in a guy's hand you can't see that kills you.”

Say it Aint So !!! I will just kill myself if they take those Gun Shaped Pop-Tarts off the shelves !!!!!

 

[1stRambo]

Yo, no worry, ATF can`t make LAW!

"GTP"

 

[80zephyr]

The SS109/M855 round is an armor piercing round. Armor piercing rounds have been banned since the Johnson Administration.

If you read the ATF determination, the 5.56 SS109/M855 armor piercing rounds were given an exemption to the ban on armor piercing rounds in 1986, before the AR-type rifles and handguns were commercially available.

Exemptions were allowed "if the Attorney General determined that the specific ammunition at issue is 'primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.'”

Since the AR-type rifles and handguns subsequently have become commercially available, the grounds for exempting the SS109/M855 rounds are no longer valid.

Uh...AR-type rifles were commercially available long before 1986. How old are you?

The issue that they are taking advantage of is that now there are actually HANDGUNS commercially available that are chambered for 5.56/.223. So it fits the political agenda of this administration to use that fact to twist the intent of the law to ban a popular rifle round, despite the fact that there is no evidence that those few handguns have been used in any sort of crime, let alone to shoot body-armor-clad police officers, not to mention that fact that ANY .223/5.56 round (and most center-fire rifle rounds in general) will penetrate the soft-armor typically worn by street cops.

Well then, all ammo can be banned because the Thompson Center handguns are made in a shit ton of commercial rifle calibers.

Is this the "foot in the door"?

Mark

 

[Rexx Taylor]

what about those "Sniper Kittens" shooting at dogs from their windows? do they use different bullets?