No one can die to atone for the sins of another.

[guno]

The Tanakh is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'




This is why Jews do not believe there was any redemptive power at all in Jesus' death. Such a belief is unbiblical; it has no basis in the sacred text and no justification in Jewish theology. This doctrine can be seen as an invention for the sake of post-event rationalization, in other words, to give meaning and purpose to the crucifixion after the fact.

Some Christians may choose to interpret other verses in the Bible to indicate the opposite, that one CAN die for the sins of another. If that were the case, this would mean that Gd changed His mind, or that He did not mean what He said in Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'

But Gd does not change either His mind or His nature, as we read in Malachi 3:6,

For I am the Etrnl, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In a newer technique, some Christians are now quoting rabbinic writings to make it seem as if the rabbis accepted this concept of vicarious atonement. However, even if several respected rabbis did agree with this idea, we must still go by what the Bible states, and the Bible states, in no uncertain terms, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'

What Jews Believe: Essay #1: No Vicarious Atonement

 

[guno]

Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden, God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His “son” Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adam’s sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are ‘born again’ into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of ‘Original Sin’ forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Taking the bible out of context again huh?

All this energy thinking about something you say don't exist ...

Yea ok like I believe that.


.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Taking the bible out of context again huh?

All this energy thinking about something you say don't exist ...

Yea ok like I believe that.


.

It's to the point Guano starts a thread and one just rolls their eyes

 

[Mudda]

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. So relax, that debt is already paid.

 

[HaShev]

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. So relax, that debt is already paid.

1) that does not refute or answer the OP in fact it validates it because:
2)your figure was slew (hanged) and stoned the cross was always the predated sign of death used as the mark of the beast (power of death and destruction).
3)you are admitting & calling Jesus Lucifer who in iconograph does the same manipulation to the scales of justice and weight of your sins and deeds=saying debt is paid free get away with sins for everyone.
So your jails are filled with cross necklaces earing and tattoos, your riots riddled with church goers and more cross tattoos, and your 50 million murders and thousands of wars in the free get out of jail card you carry in Christian affiliation pride=failure to create the kingdom. Which means you have to create your kingdom in death to cover up the fact you screwed up the creators creation in life...way to go! You couldn't be more adversary Creator-Creation this way.
Debt paid nonsense=Satanism-anti life-anti paradise being created.

 

[HaShev]

1)First of all Yeshu son of Mary was hanged not crucified even your NT has 2 different accts! The Galilean tax revolter of 6bc was the one crucified as was the AD era christ Theudas.
source: Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree" Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree" Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree" 1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree" Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"
The Talmud depicts the son of Mary of 100bc sentenced on passover as being stoned and hanged not crucified.
2)The Jesus character says self testimony is not true. And worse then self testimony is Rome's testimony acct of self testimony characters.
3)Rome created the image for you to worship, you think you'd follow a failed prophet who dies and offers you no LIVE FOREVER get away with crimes promise that The SERPENT OFFERED EVE IN GENESIS?
4)Deut 21:22 of the Tanakh
5)The Hebrew Bible requires that the sacrificial ritual be administered by a Priest (Kohen) - we are told that Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers.
Second, the Hebrew Bible requires that the blood of the sacrifice had to be sprinkled on the altar in the Temple by the Priest - we are told that it wasn’t done.
Third, the Hebrew Bible requires that the sacrifice be without any physical defects or blemishes - we know that Jesus was beaten, whipped, and dragged on the ground before being crucified (not to mention that, as a Jew by birth, he was circumcised on the eighth day after being born, which is rendered as a mutilation in the New Testament).
Fourth, the Hebrew Bible specifies that the Passover sacrifice was offered on an individual basis, not as a communal offering.
Fifth, the Hebrew Bible requires that the Passover sacrifice had to be roasted and eaten.
Sixth, the Hebrew Bible states that the Passover sacrifice wasn’t offered for the removal of sins, it was a commemorative offering; a more appropriate time for a sin offering would have been on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement).
Seventh, the Hebrew Bible strictly forbids vicarious atonement.
Eighth, the Hebrew Bible strictly prohibits human sacrifices.

6)Jesus did not absorb the sins of people. For Jews, sins are removed not by Jesus' atonement but by seeking forgiveness. Jews seek forgiveness from God for sins against God and from other people (not just God) for sins against those people. Seeking forgiveness requires a sincere sense of repenting but also seeking directly to redress the wrong done to someone. Sins are partially removed through prayer which replaced animal sacrifice as a way of relieving sins. They are also removed by correcting errors against others.

7)the Jewish view is that humans are not born naturally good or naturally bad. They have both a good and a bad inclination in them, but they have the free moral will to choose the good and this free moral will can be more powerful than the evil inclination. Indeed, Jewish ethics requires the idea that humans decide for themselves how to act. This is so because temptation, and with it the possibility of sin, allows people to choose good and thus have moral merit. The Jewish view is not that humans are helpless in the face of moral error. We then get what we give as in reactions to our actions and chose to live in what we leave.


8)atoning for sins is not in blood
Hosea chapter 14 verses 2-3

9)Ezekiel condemns the doctrine thata righteous man can die for the sins ofthe wicked.
Vicarious atonement is condemned throughout by Ezekiel.
10)has this method and logic worked in the world=NO!

 

[Penelope]

RC's are not taught substitutionary atonement.

 

[Mudda]

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. So relax, that debt is already paid.

1) that does not refute or answer the OP in fact it validates it because:
2)your figure was slew (hanged) and stoned the cross was always the predated sign of death used as the mark of the beast (power of death and destruction).
3)you are admitting & calling Jesus Lucifer who in iconograph does the same manipulation to the scales of justice and weight of your sins and deeds=saying debt is paid free get away with sins for everyone.
So your jails are filled with cross necklaces earing and tattoos, your riots riddled with church goers and more cross tattoos, and your 50 million murders and thousands of wars in the free get out of jail card you carry in Christian affiliation pride=failure to create the kingdom. Which means you have to create your kingdom in death to cover up the fact you screwed up the creators creation in life...way to go! You couldn't be more adversary Creator-Creation this way.
Debt paid nonsense=Satanism-anti life-anti paradise being created.

WoW! That's a lot of fartsmoke, even for you.

Jesus died for our sins, so sin as much as you want, that debt is already paid.

And Jesus can't be the devil, because that's the Muslim god.

 

[irosie91]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

 

[hadit]

The OP's obsession with all things Christ continues...

May the conviction remain strong.

 

[irosie91]

The OP's obsession with all things Christ continues...

May the conviction remain strong.

uhm---he is a one trick pony

 

[Penelope]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

 

[irosie91]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

why the stutter Penny dear? Yes---they sacrifice animals in mecca on a MASSIVE SCALE-------so much that they do not know what to do with all those dead little lambs. Saudi arabia is working on it -----or so it is
rumoured. I have never been to mecca but
I have been told that EACH PERSON who does the HAJJ thing is expected to sacrifice
a lamb (???) don't quote me-----I may be wrong-----would seem to me like LOTS OF LAMBS.
You continue to make it obvious that you never read the bible. You have no
idea what "jews use to do"
Do you want to make a point?

 

[Penelope]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

why the stutter Penny dear? Yes---they sacrifice animals in mecca on a MASSIVE SCALE-------so much that they do not know what to do with all those dead little lambs. Saudi arabia is working on it -----or so it is
rumoured. I have never been to mecca but
I have been told that EACH PERSON who does the HAJJ thing is expected to sacrifice
a lamb (???) don't quote me-----I may be wrong-----would seem to me like LOTS OF LAMBS.
You continue to make it obvious that you never read the bible. You have no
idea what "jews use to do"
Do you want to make a point?

I don't believe they all have to sacrifice a lamb. You'd have to show me something proving that. What stutter. Yes the OT jews had scapegoats which was sent away from the tribe, carrying your sins away in it or on it , whatever , or sometimes the poor lamb was thrown off a cliff. Have you not read the OT?
27 ‘If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the Lord in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar

 

[irosie91]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

why the stutter Penny dear? Yes---they sacrifice animals in mecca on a MASSIVE SCALE-------so much that they do not know what to do with all those dead little lambs. Saudi arabia is working on it -----or so it is
rumoured. I have never been to mecca but
I have been told that EACH PERSON who does the HAJJ thing is expected to sacrifice
a lamb (???) don't quote me-----I may be wrong-----would seem to me like LOTS OF LAMBS.
You continue to make it obvious that you never read the bible. You have no
idea what "jews use to do"
Do you want to make a point?

I don't believe they all have to sacrifice a lamb. You'd have to show me something proving that. What stutter. Yes the OT jews had scapegoats which was sent away from the tribe, carrying your sins away in it or on it , whatever , or sometimes the poor lamb was thrown off a cliff. Have you not read the OT?

Of course I have read the OT----there was a ONCE PER YEAR ceremony ---involving one
person ----one of the high priests who did kill a lamb. ---the lamb being called in English---
the scapegoat. It was a symbolic ceremony ---now abandoned. For the Passover holiday---lambs were killed----and eaten. The rule was that the whole lamb had to be eaten----
if a family or group was too small to need a WHOLE lamb---they joined groups. People actually SIGNED ON to organized lamb eating suppers-------in Jerusalem which is what the LAST SUPPER is all about. I have my information about the "each person---a lamb"---during the HAJJ from muslims who did the HAJJ------I have no interest in seeking a link. I did not demand details like "girls too"?? or children?

 

[Penelope]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

why the stutter Penny dear? Yes---they sacrifice animals in mecca on a MASSIVE SCALE-------so much that they do not know what to do with all those dead little lambs. Saudi arabia is working on it -----or so it is
rumoured. I have never been to mecca but
I have been told that EACH PERSON who does the HAJJ thing is expected to sacrifice
a lamb (???) don't quote me-----I may be wrong-----would seem to me like LOTS OF LAMBS.
You continue to make it obvious that you never read the bible. You have no
idea what "jews use to do"
Do you want to make a point?

I don't believe they all have to sacrifice a lamb. You'd have to show me something proving that. What stutter. Yes the OT jews had scapegoats which was sent away from the tribe, carrying your sins away in it or on it , whatever , or sometimes the poor lamb was thrown off a cliff. Have you not read the OT?

Of course I have read the OT----there was a ONCE PER YEAR ceremony ---involving one
person ----one of the high priests who did kill a lamb. ---the lamb being called in English---
the scapegoat. It was a symbolic ceremony ---now abandoned. For the Passover holiday---lambs were killed----and eaten. The rule was that the whole lamb had to be eaten----
if a family or group was too small to need a WHOLE lamb---they joined groups. People actually SIGNED ON to organized lamb eating suppers-------in Jerusalem which is what the LAST SUPPER is all about. I have my information about the "each person---a lamb"---during the HAJJ from muslims who did the HAJJ------I have no interest in seeking a link. I did not demand details like "girls too"?? or children?

I have no problem with that , people getting together and sharing a lamb, really don't need to start sacrifices back up on the temple mount as an offering to Yahweh though. That would be crazy.

 

[irosie91]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

why the stutter Penny dear? Yes---they sacrifice animals in mecca on a MASSIVE SCALE-------so much that they do not know what to do with all those dead little lambs. Saudi arabia is working on it -----or so it is
rumoured. I have never been to mecca but
I have been told that EACH PERSON who does the HAJJ thing is expected to sacrifice
a lamb (???) don't quote me-----I may be wrong-----would seem to me like LOTS OF LAMBS.
You continue to make it obvious that you never read the bible. You have no
idea what "jews use to do"
Do you want to make a point?

I don't believe they all have to sacrifice a lamb. You'd have to show me something proving that. What stutter. Yes the OT jews had scapegoats which was sent away from the tribe, carrying your sins away in it or on it , whatever , or sometimes the poor lamb was thrown off a cliff. Have you not read the OT?

Of course I have read the OT----there was a ONCE PER YEAR ceremony ---involving one
person ----one of the high priests who did kill a lamb. ---the lamb being called in English---
the scapegoat. It was a symbolic ceremony ---now abandoned. For the Passover holiday---lambs were killed----and eaten. The rule was that the whole lamb had to be eaten----
if a family or group was too small to need a WHOLE lamb---they joined groups. People actually SIGNED ON to organized lamb eating suppers-------in Jerusalem which is what the LAST SUPPER is all about. I have my information about the "each person---a lamb"---during the HAJJ from muslims who did the HAJJ------I have no interest in seeking a link. I did not demand details like "girls too"?? or children?

I remembered MORE for you Penelope It is not ONLY for the HAJJ that muslims sacrifice lambs-------One of my informants told me that during Ramadan-----each FAMILY buys a lamb and on one of the days ----it was my impression from what the man said--- that the FATHER kills the lamb. The massive---everyone kills his own lamb thing is a HAJJ IN MECCA thing.

 

[irosie91]

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Cool it folks-----in Christian theology----IMHO---
Jesus is a kind of symbol of animal
sacrifice---even to the point of EATING
it. Of course animal sacrifices in both roman and jewish religious practice WERE eaten---so it makes sense---sorta. In roman practice
animal sacrifice was a kind of general worship as well as DISPLAY OF WEALTH by the biggest shot around. The meat was sold by
the temple of whatever "god" was honored
in the mass butchery---BIGTIME PICNIC for
the masses. In jewish practice---animal sacrifice was very specific and limited and the resulting edible stuff-----if any----was eaten by
priests and levites and their families only------ in compensation for the fact that they did not own land. There was a symbolic ceremony at the
beginning of the year in which a priest----kinda
laid upon the head of a little lamb-----all the sins of the nation-----then killed the lamb----that little lamb did not become shish kebob for anyone. The death of Jesus (sometimes called "LAMB OF G-D" became a symbol of
forever expiation of all sins for anyone who wants it. Interestingly---just about all societies of the past and present primitive societies engage in some sort of special ---religious ways----to establish a "meat distribution economy" -----here in the USA----all that stuff is POETRY. In some times and places -----it is a practical way to deal with the dilemma of WHAT TO DO WITH THE MEAT in the absence of FREEZERS. If they do the HAJJ-----I think they all kill tens of thousands of little lambs-----the dilemma of "what to do with the meat" remains a problem in Mecca

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

why the stutter Penny dear? Yes---they sacrifice animals in mecca on a MASSIVE SCALE-------so much that they do not know what to do with all those dead little lambs. Saudi arabia is working on it -----or so it is
rumoured. I have never been to mecca but
I have been told that EACH PERSON who does the HAJJ thing is expected to sacrifice
a lamb (???) don't quote me-----I may be wrong-----would seem to me like LOTS OF LAMBS.
You continue to make it obvious that you never read the bible. You have no
idea what "jews use to do"
Do you want to make a point?

I don't believe they all have to sacrifice a lamb. You'd have to show me something proving that. What stutter. Yes the OT jews had scapegoats which was sent away from the tribe, carrying your sins away in it or on it , whatever , or sometimes the poor lamb was thrown off a cliff. Have you not read the OT?

Of course I have read the OT----there was a ONCE PER YEAR ceremony ---involving one
person ----one of the high priests who did kill a lamb. ---the lamb being called in English---
the scapegoat. It was a symbolic ceremony ---now abandoned. For the Passover holiday---lambs were killed----and eaten. The rule was that the whole lamb had to be eaten----
if a family or group was too small to need a WHOLE lamb---they joined groups. People actually SIGNED ON to organized lamb eating suppers-------in Jerusalem which is what the LAST SUPPER is all about. I have my information about the "each person---a lamb"---during the HAJJ from muslims who did the HAJJ------I have no interest in seeking a link. I did not demand details like "girls too"?? or children?

I have no problem with that , people getting together and sharing a lamb, really don't need to start sacrifices back up on the temple mount as an offering to Yahweh though. That would be crazy.

why would anyone care about issues with which YOU have problems? I have no clue why the sacrifice of a lamb on the (???)temple mount---whatever in your wild unschooled mind you imagine the "TEMPLE MOUNT" to be ----- would be an issue for you----The Temple was a large complex---with lots of people and people do eat. Large
as it was-----the people who resided there
could not raise livestock there. In fact----
trying to raise livestock IN JERUSALEM would be quite a feat----the people who managed the WHOLE TEMPLE COMPLEX---
had no ownership of land. Sheeesh ---you
never read the bible at all. As to killing
a lamb now----within the temple complex---
and depriving the entire tribe of LEVI---of land------not likely

 

[Penelope]

Mary had a little lamb and he took all the sins of the Protestants upon him. I think they get this from the OT, when jews use to put their hands on a lambs head to transfer their sins and then sacrifice the lamb. RC's have to atone for their own transgressions, by saying a few Hail Mary's, Act of Contrition and Our Father. When one has to say the whole rosary that means that person was really bad.

The don't sacrifice animals in Mecca do they? If so they need to eat that meat.

why the stutter Penny dear? Yes---they sacrifice animals in mecca on a MASSIVE SCALE-------so much that they do not know what to do with all those dead little lambs. Saudi arabia is working on it -----or so it is
rumoured. I have never been to mecca but
I have been told that EACH PERSON who does the HAJJ thing is expected to sacrifice
a lamb (???) don't quote me-----I may be wrong-----would seem to me like LOTS OF LAMBS.
You continue to make it obvious that you never read the bible. You have no
idea what "jews use to do"
Do you want to make a point?

I don't believe they all have to sacrifice a lamb. You'd have to show me something proving that. What stutter. Yes the OT jews had scapegoats which was sent away from the tribe, carrying your sins away in it or on it , whatever , or sometimes the poor lamb was thrown off a cliff. Have you not read the OT?

Of course I have read the OT----there was a ONCE PER YEAR ceremony ---involving one
person ----one of the high priests who did kill a lamb. ---the lamb being called in English---
the scapegoat. It was a symbolic ceremony ---now abandoned. For the Passover holiday---lambs were killed----and eaten. The rule was that the whole lamb had to be eaten----
if a family or group was too small to need a WHOLE lamb---they joined groups. People actually SIGNED ON to organized lamb eating suppers-------in Jerusalem which is what the LAST SUPPER is all about. I have my information about the "each person---a lamb"---during the HAJJ from muslims who did the HAJJ------I have no interest in seeking a link. I did not demand details like "girls too"?? or children?

I have no problem with that , people getting together and sharing a lamb, really don't need to start sacrifices back up on the temple mount as an offering to Yahweh though. That would be crazy.

why would anyone care about issues with which YOU have problems? I have no clue why the sacrifice of a lamb on the (???)temple mount---whatever in your wild unschooled mind you imagine the "TEMPLE MOUNT" to be ----- would be an issue for you----The Temple was a large complex---with lots of people and people do eat. Large
as it was-----the people who resided there
could not raise livestock there. In fact----
trying to raise livestock IN JERUSALEM would be quite a feat----the people who managed the WHOLE TEMPLE COMPLEX---
had no ownership of land. Sheeesh ---you
never read the bible at all. As to killing
a lamb now----within the temple complex---
and depriving the entire tribe of LEVI---of land------not likely

No kidding that's why you didn't eat pork or one of the reasons. You do not have the temple mount , you have the wailing wall. I am aware of the big push for beginning sacrifices back up, how stupid. The temple was a money making scheme. The tribe of Levites, who gives a care about your tribes. Ezra said they turned into pagans.