CDZ Never Let a Good Waste Go to Crisis

Tom Paine 1949

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2020
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I found this article interesting and thoughtful. I mostly agree with its perspective on the failures of our two political parties, and on how our economic system seems self-destructive and fragile. I don't pretend to have solutions, but I do feel most Americans are ignoring the real challenges that threaten human survival in the future.

"It has been an article of faith during recent crises that temporary measures must be taken to bring about a return to normalcy, at which point a longer view can prevail. Following 9/11, the national security state that had been waning with the end of the Cold War was revived and given new prominence. Later, the Obama administration ‘held its nose’ as it bailed out the large banks, with the result being that the institutions that caused the crisis were fully restored and the balance of power and nature of ‘the economy’ were permanently altered.

"In the absence of real crises, there have been contrived emergencies like Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction and ‘foreign interference’ in U.S. elections that served more targeted purposes and constituencies. The George W. Bush administration’s WMD fraud served the neocon’s political purposes by generating the fear and loathing needed to launch an elective war. And the Democrat’s Russiagate fraud redirected political energy toward restoration of the neocon and national security state political order. The latter represents where the national Democrats are politically today.

"As might have been expected, these contrived crises have made resolving real crises that much more difficult. The UN environmental committee reports that were issued in 2018 and 2019 have fallen from the headlines, but the crises they detail haven’t been resolved. Taken together, they call for quick and far-reaching action to end dirty capitalist production and to radically reimagine how eight billion human beings can exist without destroying ourselves. By happenstance, the coronavirus pandemic demonstrated just how quickly adverse circumstances can impact human endeavors.

"The ‘lesson’ from the pandemic is that life is fragile. And this fragility needs to be respected. Reorganizing the planet along narrow notions of human interests, as capitalism does, assumes knowledge that the pandemic and looming environmental crises demonstrate doesn’t exist...."

 
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I found this article interesting and thoughtful. I mostly agree with its perspective on the failures of our two political parties, and on how our economic system seems self-destructive and fragile. I don't pretend to have solutions, but I do feel most Americans are ignoring the real challenges that threaten human survival in the future.

"It has been an article of faith during recent crises that temporary measures must be taken to bring about a return to normalcy, at which point a longer view can prevail. Following 9/11, the national security state that had been waning with the end of the Cold War was revived and given new prominence. Later, the Obama administration ‘held its nose’ as it bailed out the large banks, with the result being that the institutions that caused the crisis were fully restored and the balance of power and nature of ‘the economy’ were permanently altered.

"In the absence of real crises, there have been contrived emergencies like Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction and ‘foreign interference’ in U.S. elections that served more targeted purposes and constituencies. The George W. Bush administration’s WMD fraud served the neocon’s political purposes by generating the fear and loathing needed to launch an elective war. And the Democrat’s Russiagate fraud redirected political energy toward restoration of the neocon and national security state political order. The latter represents where the national Democrats are politically today.

"As might have been expected, these contrived crises have made resolving real crises that much more difficult. The UN environmental committee reports that were issued in 2018 and 2019 have fallen from the headlines, but the crises they detail haven’t been resolved. Taken together, they call for quick and far-reaching action to end dirty capitalist production and to radically reimagine how eight billion human beings can exist without destroying ourselves. By happenstance, the coronavirus pandemic demonstrated just how quickly adverse circumstances can impact human endeavors.

"The ‘lesson’ from the pandemic is that life is fragile. And this fragility needs to be respected. Reorganizing the planet along narrow notions of human interests, as capitalism does, assumes knowledge that the pandemic and looming environmental crises demonstrate doesn’t exist...."

35,491 Americans dead. "Doesn't exist."
 
Maybe I've just been reading here too long, but I don't think we, as the human race, are evolved enough to think globally, to respect the Big Blue Marble and the awesome responsibility we have as its caretakers. Hell, half the folks here can't think far enough in front of their nose to understand the concept of the U.N., let alone the Paris Agreement.

I'm not sure that capitalism is the devil incarnate, either. Removing it won't stop people from being narrow minded and selfish and greedy. IMO.

Lordy, I'm being cynical. Okay, reset: We must hold onto our ideals and aspire to become better; we must never lose our dream of perfection. It is all that separates us from the animals.
 
Well the thing about crisis is that it should brings people together. Then politicians step in and muck it up. Once that feeling of solitary is gone then its back to square one. As Maslow would say How can I be the most that one can be. Thus create the question How come I am not the same as the other person if we are both the most one can be.

9/11 was unifying moment and then Bush could not find the perp and channel it into a war with Iraq

corona virus should be a unifying moment but Trump has been inconsistent with his statements and his attacks on those who are unappreciative of him

The great recession should have been a unifying moment but the political divide demonized Obama for spending so much money on a stimulus package and now the same complainers easily pass bills costing trillions of dollars twice.

Russian interference should have been a unifying moment if it was so one sided in favor of one party and Trump does know how to build consensus instead his consensus is my way or hit the highway

The two party system works in the sense that each side gets a change at governing. Yet at the same time it creates a great divide.

The one party works in the sense that either you play along or be quite and quit your bitching. This works until the people have had enough or you have an enlightened leader who knows when to quite.

The mulit-party system works in the sense that you have to build a coalition of people with different objectives with being in and staying in power the main objective.

Religion should be a way to build unification but then they want to get involved in politics

If you respect others then it should be easy to respect yourself
 
I found this article interesting and thoughtful. I mostly agree with its perspective on the failures of our two political parties, and on how our economic system seems self-destructive and fragile. I don't pretend to have solutions, but I do feel most Americans are ignoring the real challenges that threaten human survival in the future.

"It has been an article of faith during recent crises that temporary measures must be taken to bring about a return to normalcy, at which point a longer view can prevail. Following 9/11, the national security state that had been waning with the end of the Cold War was revived and given new prominence. Later, the Obama administration ‘held its nose’ as it bailed out the large banks, with the result being that the institutions that caused the crisis were fully restored and the balance of power and nature of ‘the economy’ were permanently altered.

"In the absence of real crises, there have been contrived emergencies like Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction and ‘foreign interference’ in U.S. elections that served more targeted purposes and constituencies. The George W. Bush administration’s WMD fraud served the neocon’s political purposes by generating the fear and loathing needed to launch an elective war. And the Democrat’s Russiagate fraud redirected political energy toward restoration of the neocon and national security state political order. The latter represents where the national Democrats are politically today.

"As might have been expected, these contrived crises have made resolving real crises that much more difficult. The UN environmental committee reports that were issued in 2018 and 2019 have fallen from the headlines, but the crises they detail haven’t been resolved. Taken together, they call for quick and far-reaching action to end dirty capitalist production and to radically reimagine how eight billion human beings can exist without destroying ourselves. By happenstance, the coronavirus pandemic demonstrated just how quickly adverse circumstances can impact human endeavors.

"The ‘lesson’ from the pandemic is that life is fragile. And this fragility needs to be respected. Reorganizing the planet along narrow notions of human interests, as capitalism does, assumes knowledge that the pandemic and looming environmental crises demonstrate doesn’t exist...."

35,491 Americans dead. "Doesn't exist."

I'm sure you think you're being clever, but it has already been established that the numbers are inflated, and non COVID-19 deaths are being counted as COVID-19. In addition to that, even the testing is said to be unreliable.

But do go ahead and believe everything you're told by the controlled MSM and the corrupt powers-that-be who rely on trustful people to get scared into surrendering their rights and going along with their agendas. We talked about that earlier on this thread.
 
The government makes the guidelines. It will never be a precise. The death toll from any war is always an estimate and it will never be 100 percent accurate for various obvious reason. It just gives us a sense of what happen. Thus in the end that is all we can do is get a sense of what is happening now. We know people are dying from COVID-19. Just because the numbers may be under-counted or over counted, does mean that it is not useful. Trying to make it a political debate is useless.

It's akin the the God argument and in the end you either believe or you don't.

So if you say that it is over counted then does that make the government look bad

If you say that it is under counted then does that somehow make the government look better

It is just information. Many people have lambasted the Chinese for under counting. The US is lambasted for over counting.

It doesn't matter. It just something to wrap you head around when you think about fate.

whether this is an actually number of 4811 which will always have an error rate of plus or minus is irrelevant. Well even death is considered a certainty but is it if you believe in the afterlife. Family and friends have died. IF we blame covid-19 then maybe science will be motivated to find a cure or treatment. Maybe when the next situation then we will be better prepared. Number can provide a motivation and in the end it is better than no numbers.

Stats like below will be used to develop strategies.

As the nation faces a shortage of COVID-19 testing, compounded by issues with false negatives in testing and people dying in their homes without positive tests, the National Center for Health Statistics has also established guidelines for certification when testing is not available.

Statistics have uncertainty and it is how you count things. Yet someone defines how it is counted.

Its a government thing and who runs the government

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/coronavirus/Alert-1-Guidance-for-Certifying-COVID-19-Deaths.pdf


Data as of April 17, 2020

Week ending date in which the death occurredCOVID-19 Deaths (U07.1)1Deaths from All CausesPercent of Expected Deaths2Pneumonia Deaths
(J12.0–J18.9)3
Deaths with Pneumonia and COVID-19
(J12.0–J18.9 and U07.1)3
Influenza Deaths
(J09–J11)4
Population5
Total Deaths13,130582,5659245,0195,9025,228327,167,434
2/1/2020056,589953,6390454327,167,434
2/8/2020057,114963,6330488327,167,434
2/15/2020056,143953,6380499327,167,434
2/22/2020055,690963,4910516327,167,434
2/29/2020555,036963,5163586327,167,434
3/7/20202054,476943,61411566327,167,434
3/14/20204452,704923,58622558327,167,434
3/21/202045452,271924,005209479327,167,434
3/28/20202,33953,687965,1851,090368327,167,434
4/4/20205,45752,992956,5492,620371327,167,434
4/11/20204,81135,863654,1631,947343327,167,434


 
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I found this article interesting and thoughtful. I mostly agree with its perspective on the failures of our two political parties, and on how our economic system seems self-destructive and fragile. I don't pretend to have solutions, but I do feel most Americans are ignoring the real challenges that threaten human survival in the future.

I sort of think I know where you are coming from and why and how you are reading this piece, but... really?

I find an author playing fast and loose with the facts, starting out with noted Obama administration official, Hank Paulson, bailing out the banks. He argues as if the Clinton-Democrats of 1999 were still in charge, and as if the Bernie thing never happened. He fundamentally misunderstands, in the most startling fashion, how and why Russia-gate fell apart under Barr's disinformation campaign, and why the lessons to be learned from the Mueller investigation were either not learned at all, or not implemented. Not least, he went through the whole thing without so much as mentioning that the whole thing was started by Trump's obviously corrupt firing of Comey, and Mueller (R) was set on Trump's trail by Rosenstein (R), not Democrats. That he also misrepresents Mueller's findings doesn't surprise, given all that. Raising the impression Putin's attack on the 2016 elections didn't happen, and the ongoing operation targeting the 2020 elections going entirely unmentioned, is just the icing on that cake. That's just for starters.

As to the core: "The ‘lesson’ from the pandemic is that life is fragile." Because we really, really didn't know that before coronavirus hit. No one could ever have known that beforehand. Let me present my conclusion: Good governance, driven by a solid and persistent respect for facts and science, not to mention democratic institutions and the rule of law, in conjunction with learning from the past, matter. Without that, you never even get to the point of envisioning how to implement the policies paying tribute to the fragility of life. That's assuming the best of intentions, whereof there is a staggering, devastating dearth of late. I really don't even want to deal with that anti-capitalist nonsense, as if the Anglo-American, cut-throat casino-capitalism were the last word on that, or to question the history of anti-capitalists and their respect for the fragility of life.

I also think that pseudo-witty, juvenile title should have been a warning, as should have been embarrassing bloopers such as "standard fair", and "red hoards". He is as sloppy in his treatment of language as he is in his treatment of facts. All in all, he represents the leftarded version of the "both sides" bullshit that grips much of the public debate these days, working back from that preordained conclusion to arrange and bend "facts" and conclusions to support it.
 
sort of think I know where you are coming from and why and how you are reading this piece,
I don't.

If you...

... deeply care about humans.

... find them in dire predicaments, heading for a future that is more dire, still.

... find them enmeshed in a political, economic and financial system not able to alleviate that.

... find the powers-that-be don't even really try...


... you might want to give radical alternatives a reading that is more hopeful, more forgiving, less critical than is warranted, opting for a change of course for the sake of a changed course because the path ahead is unbearable. Or so was my interpretation. Tom will sure correct me in case I am off the mark.
 
Good governance, driven by a solid and persistent respect for facts and science, not to mention democratic institutions and the rule of law, in conjunction with learning from the past, matter.
I think the article posted in the OP was just a warning bell that we're not in that place, don't you?

I really don't even want to deal with that anti-capitalist nonsense, as if the Anglo-American, cut-throat casino-capitalism were the last word on that, or to question the history of anti-capitalists and their respect for the fragility of life.
Yes.

I've had to read this whole thread about as many times as I had to read "The Love Song of Alfred J. Prufrock" in order to get more than a foggy sense of what's being said. I thank you for your assistance.
 
I found this article interesting and thoughtful. I mostly agree with its perspective on the failures of our two political parties, and on how our economic system seems self-destructive and fragile. I don't pretend to have solutions, but I do feel most Americans are ignoring the real challenges that threaten human survival in the future.

I sort of think I know where you are coming from and why and how you are reading this piece, but... really?

I find an author playing fast and loose with the facts, starting out with noted Obama administration official, Hank Paulson, bailing out the banks. He argues as if the Clinton-Democrats of 1999 were still in charge, and as if the Bernie thing never happened. He fundamentally misunderstands, in the most startling fashion, how and why Russia-gate fell apart under Barr's disinformation campaign, and why the lessons to be learned from the Mueller investigation were either not learned at all, or not implemented. Not least, he went through the whole thing without so much as mentioning that the whole thing was started by Trump's obviously corrupt firing of Comey, and Mueller (R) was set on Trump's trail by Rosenstein (R), not Democrats. That he also misrepresents Mueller's findings doesn't surprise, given all that. Raising the impression Putin's attack on the 2016 elections didn't happen, and the ongoing operation targeting the 2020 elections going entirely unmentioned, is just the icing on that cake. That's just for starters.

As to the core: "The ‘lesson’ from the pandemic is that life is fragile." Because we really, really didn't know that before coronavirus hit. No one could ever have known that beforehand. Let me present my conclusion: Good governance, driven by a solid and persistent respect for facts and science, not to mention democratic institutions and the rule of law, in conjunction with learning from the past, matter. Without that, you never even get to the point of envisioning how to implement the policies paying tribute to the fragility of life. That's assuming the best of intentions, whereof there is a staggering, devastating dearth of late. I really don't even want to deal with that anti-capitalist nonsense, as if the Anglo-American, cut-throat casino-capitalism were the last word on that, or to question the history of anti-capitalists and their respect for the fragility of life.

I also think that pseudo-witty, juvenile title should have been a warning, as should have been embarrassing bloopers such as "standard fair", and "red hoards". He is as sloppy in his treatment of language as he is in his treatment of facts. All in all, he represents the leftarded version of the "both sides" bullshit that grips much of the public debate these days, working back from that preordained conclusion to arrange and bend "facts" and conclusions to support it.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, OldEurope. The article is certainly depressing, and has its weaknesses, as you well note. I also don’t care to deal with the author’s views on “socialism.” He is not very clear as to what exactly that means to him. I assume he supported Bernie’s candidacy, without illusions, but I’m not sure. I still think the article was thought provoking.

I’m not a prophet of doom and gloom. Covid-19 will pass. It is just a minor stress-test for our society. But it ought to be a wake-up call, especially assuming ecological scientists are at all accurate in their dire predictions. Ordinary life for hundreds of millions in the Third World and underdeveloped countries are where we may be slowly headed. Riots and chaos in poor countries, where economic fallout is far worse than this pandemic’s direct health consequence, is already occurring, and will continue. That is not even to mention the likelihood of wars.

I disagree with you about “Russia-gate.” I think that Trump was a fool playing games with Putin publicly (“Send us Hillary’s emails”) but I put the blame on Democratic politicians long wedded to real “military-industrial-security-state Cold War imperialist policies” for pursuing this as far as they did — and still do. I think that Trump Republicans are playing a similar childish and exaggerated game vis-a-vis their charges that Democrats are “soft on China.”

Of course I want to see Trump’s divisive and incompetent regime gone. But I’m pretty certain the DNC in alliance with a “liberal capitalist security state” — even when we finally emerge from this health and economic crisis — will only lead us into another one waiting just down the road. Perhaps there will be some changes. Some rethinking. I would like to think it is possible.

Anyway I respect your view, even though we may disagree.
 
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This thread is nothing more than a libtard therapy session masquerading as Clean Debate.
 
I found this article interesting and thoughtful. I mostly agree with its perspective on the failures of our two political parties, and on how our economic system seems self-destructive and fragile. I don't pretend to have solutions, but I do feel most Americans are ignoring the real challenges that threaten human survival in the future.

"It has been an article of faith during recent crises that temporary measures must be taken to bring about a return to normalcy, at which point a longer view can prevail. Following 9/11, the national security state that had been waning with the end of the Cold War was revived and given new prominence. Later, the Obama administration ‘held its nose’ as it bailed out the large banks, with the result being that the institutions that caused the crisis were fully restored and the balance of power and nature of ‘the economy’ were permanently altered.

"In the absence of real crises, there have been contrived emergencies like Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction and ‘foreign interference’ in U.S. elections that served more targeted purposes and constituencies. The George W. Bush administration’s WMD fraud served the neocon’s political purposes by generating the fear and loathing needed to launch an elective war. And the Democrat’s Russiagate fraud redirected political energy toward restoration of the neocon and national security state political order. The latter represents where the national Democrats are politically today.

"As might have been expected, these contrived crises have made resolving real crises that much more difficult. The UN environmental committee reports that were issued in 2018 and 2019 have fallen from the headlines, but the crises they detail haven’t been resolved. Taken together, they call for quick and far-reaching action to end dirty capitalist production and to radically reimagine how eight billion human beings can exist without destroying ourselves. By happenstance, the coronavirus pandemic demonstrated just how quickly adverse circumstances can impact human endeavors.

"The ‘lesson’ from the pandemic is that life is fragile. And this fragility needs to be respected. Reorganizing the planet along narrow notions of human interests, as capitalism does, assumes knowledge that the pandemic and looming environmental crises demonstrate doesn’t exist...."


8gu41mh.png
 
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, OldEurope. The article is certainly depressing, and has its weaknesses, as you well note. I also don’t care to deal with the author’s views on “socialism.” He is not very clear as to what exactly that means to him. I assume he supported Bernie’s candidacy, without illusions, but I’m not sure. I still think the article was thought provoking.

I’m not a prophet of doom and gloom. Covid-19 will pass. It is just a minor stress-test for our society. But it ought to be a wake-up call, especially assuming ecological scientists are at all accurate in their dire predictions. Ordinary life for hundreds of millions in the Third World and underdeveloped countries are where we may be slowly headed. Riots and chaos in poor countries, where economic fallout is far worse than this pandemic’s direct health consequence, is already occurring, and will continue. That is not even to mention the likelihood of wars.

I disagree with you about “Russia-gate.” I think that Trump was a fool playing games with Putin publicly (“Send us Hillary’s emails”) but I put the blame on Democratic politicians long wedded to real “military-industrial-security-state Cold War imperialist policies” for pursuing this as far as they did — and still do. I think that Trump Republicans are playing a similar childish and exaggerated game vis-a-vis their charges that Democrats are “soft on China.”

Of course I want to see Trump’s divisive and incompetent regime gone. But I’m pretty certain the DNC in alliance with a “liberal capitalist security state” — even when we finally emerge from this health and economic crisis — will only lead us into another one waiting just down the road. Perhaps there will be some changes. Some rethinking. I would like to think it is possible.

Anyway I respect your view, even though we may disagree.

No, the author does most assuredly not support Bernie. Rather, Bernie is his greatest inconvenience on his path toward depicting and decrying Democrats as the neo-liberal ultra-capitalists, worse than Republicans, which is why he doesn't mention Bernie at all, as if he didn't happen, as if Biden didn't hire Bernie's staff in large numbers to have them help write the Democratic platform.

Covid-19 is a major, major stress test, resulting in Great Depression-level unemployment and throwing every weakness and injustice - from economic inequality to unequal health and treatment to unequal access to healthcare to unequal living conditions etc. etc. etc. - into sharp relief. And yes, climate change, as a conflict multiplier, will exacerbate every single one of these conflict lines.

I hope I don't do you injustice, but you should read the Mueller report. Goofing around with "Hillary's emails" was hardly mentioned, if memory serves, and it sure played no role at all. The wrongdoing was wide-spread, pervasive, and so was the lying about it. Mueller's report was an amazing feat - a cover-up in plain sight, as assisted by Barr's propaganda spree. And no, safeguarding elections against foreign interference is not a sign of “military-industrial-security-state Cold War imperialist policies”. I can't even begin to understand your thinking here. Of course, Trumpletons have to play their silly "Soft on China" game. They have a little, inconvenient problem in the form of Trump's love affair with Xi (and Kim) to distract from.

I tentatively agree with the penultimate paragraph, in a way. The DNC cohorts have one last chance, in my assessment, to demonstrate conclusively that they are not just Republicans-light, with a bit of marriage equality and minus the overt racism. If a Biden administration ignores Bernie, I think they are done. So yeah, there has to be not just "Some rethinking," but real change. I think nothing less will do. Here's why: Covid-19 will cause major devastation. Many, particularly small, businesses will probably not come back, many jobs won't, either. Many will lose their healthcare, and economic and social life will be disrupted and curtailed for months to come. Any Democratic administration that doesn't address that resolutely and conclusively, and the suffering of the bottom half in particular, will have hell to pay.

Rest assured, the respect is mutual, and let's respectfully disagree on things about which reasonable people can reasonably disagree.
 
Good governance, driven by a solid and persistent respect for facts and science, not to mention democratic institutions and the rule of law, in conjunction with learning from the past, matter.
I think the article posted in the OP was just a warning bell that we're not in that place, don't you?

No, not at all. Good governance - say, the Clinton-Obama-model of carefully crafted policies in the realm of the possible, advised by science and the best available data without a change of system - isn't even on the author's radar screen. He's an anti-capitalist, and he has chosen to besmirch any and all efforts to make capitalism a system providing a decent living for everyone as the worst form of capitalism. That's how he arrived at the judgment that Democrats are worse, more ideologically driven capitalists than Republicans - in the age of Trump.
 

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