Zone1 Mormons outraged after Pentagon no longer counts LDS as Christian

[1srelluc]

Fair point. Religion basically breaks down into Eleven major groupings, so I'm not sure what that 31 might be, and out of that 11, they all merge back as all having come from a common nostratic pantheism originating about 20,000 years ago. Out of that grew (among others) Arabian pantheism, from which first came Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism in the 16th century, and finally, Mormonism in the 19th century.

So no, Mormonism isn't Christian, but it grew out from/evolved out from it, so shares some common aspects or attributes.

A ARFCOM member seems to remember there were just seven to choose from back in the 60s when he entered the service.

If that is true it just goes to show how our society has kowtowed to so-called religion.

 

[Care4all]

Here's what Jesus says about it....or a similar situation....perhaps?



Luke 9

Anyone Not Against Us Is for Us

⁴⁹ John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” ⁵⁰ But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

 

[onefour1]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that shortly after the apostles were killed, Jesus' church fell away into a state of global apostasy. It wasn't until 1830 that our Lord reestablished his church here upon the earth. The Catholics were in apostasy and didn't abide by many of the teachings of the Bible. We believe they even made up a false God from their creeds. Protestants eventually realized this and broke away from the Catholic church and tried to go back to the teachings of the Bible. But they lacked much of what the church Jesus established consisted of. One particular teaching that the Apostle Paul spoke of was the necessity of having Apostles and Prophets in the church.

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here we learn that apostles and prophets were to remain in the Church of Jesus Christ till we came to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Yet we find that due to apostasy, apostles and prophets were not had among the Catholic church nor among the protestant churches. It wasn't until the Lord restored his true church again upon the face of the earth that he again called apostles and prophets to be part of this church. These leaders of His church were to guide his church by inspiration and revelation. The heavens were no longer closed and the priesthood of Melchizedek and Aaron were restored to give man authority to extend priesthood to others and to perform the necessary ordinances of the gospel.

 

[Cassandro]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that shortly after the apostles were killed, Jesus' church fell away into a state of global apostasy. It wasn't until 1830 that our Lord reestablished his church here upon the earth. The Catholics were in apostasy and didn't abide by many of the teachings of the Bible. We believe they even made up a false God from their creeds. Protestants eventually realized this and broke away from the Catholic church and tried to go back to the teachings of the Bible. But they lacked much of what the church Jesus established consisted of. One particular teaching that the Apostle Paul spoke of was the necessity of having Apostles and Prophets in the church.

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here we learn that apostles and prophets were to remain in the Church of Jesus Christ till we came to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Yet we find that due to apostasy, apostles and prophets were not had among the Catholic church nor among the protestant churches. It wasn't until the Lord restored his true church again upon the face of the earth that he again called apostles and prophets to be part of this church. These leaders of His church were to guide his church by inspiration and revelation. The heavens were no longer closed and the priesthood of Melchizedek and Aaron were restored to give man authority to extend priesthood to others and to perform the necessary ordinances of the gospel.

This line of reasoning can be used by every street-corner evangelist. But the the underlying question of the OP is: What religion (if any) do Service members want listed on their dog tags? Do LDS members want to be listed as just another Christian denomination, or do they want to be listed as their own religion?

 

[Cassandro]

Here is the full list:

Agnostic (AN)
Baha'i faith (BH)
Buddhism (BU)
Christian - Assemblies of God (AG)
Christian - Baptist (BA)
Christian - Brethren (BR)
Christian - Catholic (CA)
Christian - Church of Christ (CC)
Christian - Church of God (CG)
Christian - Church of the Nazarene (CN)
Christian - Episcopal/Anglican (EA)
Christian - Evangelical (EV)
Christian - Jehovah's Witnesses (JW)
Christian - Lutheran (LU)
Christian - Methodist (ME)
Christian - Non Denominational (ND)
Christian - Orthodox (OX)
Christian - Other (CO)
Christian - Pentecostal (PE)
Christian - Presbyterian (PR)
Christian - Quaker (QU)
Christian - Reformed (RE)
Christian - Scientist (SC)
Christian - Seventh Day Adventist (SA)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (CJ)
Hindu (HI)
Islam (Muslim) (IS)
Judaism (Jewish) (JU)
No Religion (NR)
Other Religions (OR)
Sikh (SI)

How do Mormons want to be listed?

 

[onefour1]

This line of reasoning can be used by every street-corner evangelist. But the the underlying question of the OP is: What religion (if any) do Service members want listed on their dog tags? Do LDS members want to be listed as just another Christian denomination, or do they want to be listed as their own religion?

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints view themselves as believers in Jesus Christ. Thus we are Christian. We also view our religion as the one and only true church of Jesus Christ. As stated in my post above, we believe that all other Christian churches are a break off of the great apostasy that occurred shortly after the death of the original 12 apostles. We believe that through God the Father and Jesus Christ, the church was restored upon the earth through his prophet Joseph Smith. So we don't consider ourselves to be just another Christian denomination but the actual true church of Jesus Christ. To list us as not being a Christian church but just another made up religion is offensive. Pete Hegseth may not consider us to Christian but he is not the one to decide who is Christian and who is not as a government standard. I would imagine LDS service men would want to be listed as what we believe and not what an outsider determines.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The original Jewish democracy was led by prophets, not kings, hence the need for some being expressed; they had no aristocracy and were a theological democracy of sorts. 'Kings' didn't come along until much later, as a threat from the Sea Peoples, after wiping out the Canaanites along the coast, began moving inland, and the tribe of Benjamin came under siege from them, and centralized military response was needed. In later times there was a nostalgia for those simpler times. That seems to be the case with Mormon theology.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Tribe of Benjamin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Biblical narrative​

From after the conquest of the Promised Land by Joshua until the formation of the first Kingdom of Israel, the Tribe of Benjamin was a part of a loose confederation of Israelite tribes. No central government existed, and in times of crisis the people were led by ad hoc leaders known as Judges (see shophetim and the Book of Judges).

...

United Kingdom of Israel​

Responding to a growing threat from Philistine incursions, the Israelite tribes formed a strong, centralised monarchy during the eleventh century BC. The first king of this new entity was Saul, from the tribe of Benjamin (1 Samuel 9:1–2), which at the time was the smallest of the tribes. He reigned from Gibeah for 38 years (1 Samuel 8:31).

 

[SweetSue92]

They believe they are Christians, the govt is telling them, they are not...how does the govt have the knowledge or power to make this determination and most importantly why is the govt/military making this decision to exclude them, now???

They're not excluding them. The list is about recognized religions in the military. Mormons are absolutely recognized; they're just not categorizing them as Christians.

 

[Robert W]

Maybe we can have some our regular LDS members chime in on this. Robert W mikegriffith1 Cougarbear

So do you agree with Hegseth that LDS aren't true Christians?

I find no evidence he said that.

What Did Pete Hegseth Say and Do About Religion in the...

Executive summary Pete Hegseth, as Defense Secretary, has explicitly infused public Pentagon messaging and personnel policy with Christian-inflected rhet...

factually.co

 

[Cassandro]

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints view themselves as believers in Jesus Christ. Thus we are Christian. We also view our religion as the one and only true church of Jesus Christ. As stated in my post above, we believe that all other Christian churches are a break off of the great apostasy that occurred shortly after the death of the original 12 apostles. We believe that through God the Father and Jesus Christ, the church was restored upon the earth through his prophet Joseph Smith. So we don't consider ourselves to be just another Christian denomination but the actual true church of Jesus Christ. To list us as not being a Christian church but just another made up religion is offensive. Pete Hegseth may not consider us to Christian but he is not the one to decide who is Christian and who is not as a government standard. I would imagine LDS service men would want to be listed as what we believe and not what an outsider determines.

LOOK at the list of classifications. How would YOU like to be listed? Please be SPECIFIC.

 

[onefour1]

LOOK at the list of classifications. How would YOU like to be listed? Please be SPECIFIC.

Christian The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

[onefour1]

Here is an LDS video on the subject:

 

[Robert W]

They're not excluding them. The list is about recognized religions in the military. Mormons are absolutely recognized; they're just not categorizing them as Christians.

We LDS are Christians through and through. The Pentagon got rid of the following groups and did not remove the LDS.

MSN

Chaplins wore the rank of officers and that was changed. Now they wear the insignia denoting the religion they are in.

 

[JoeB131]

They aren't deciding legitimacy, just classifications. They aren't banning anything,

Assuming this isn't a bureaucratic screwup, telling a group that professes to be Christian (and in fact, have the Name of Jesus Christ in their official name) is kind of malicious.

That's the problem with the Trump/Hegseth regime. You can't tell the malice from the incompetence.

 

[JoeB131]

They're not excluding them. The list is about recognized religions in the military. Mormons are absolutely recognized; they're just not categorizing them as Christians.

But that shouldn't be the government's call.

The government should not be in the business of doing theological tests. They aren't qualified to do it.

 

[DGS49]

There is no need to speculate about whom/what is a Christian. It is detailed in the Nicene Creed.

I believe in one God, [Mormons are polytheistic, and believe THEY can become "gods" after death]
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come.
Mormons believe very little of this, and a whole boatload of other contradictory things. LDS is fine, but it ain't Christian, and especially not Christian because they claim to be Christian.

 

[pknopp]

The OT' literature is way over your head, You should join a cargo cult out in the Pacific somewhere. You will fit in a lot better.

People always comment on something I supposedly don't understand but then are completely unable to explain it.

 

[onefour1]

There is no need to speculate about whom/what is a Christian. It is detailed in the Nicene Creed.

I believe in one God, [Mormons are polytheistic, and believe THEY can become "gods" after death]
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come.
Mormons believe very little of this, and a whole boatload of other contradictory things. LDS is fine, but it ain't Christian, and especially not Christian because they claim to be Christian.

The biggest issue LDS have with the post New Testament creeds is that these creeds tend to paint God as three separate persons but also as a single being. LDS believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct persons and beings. They are only one in glory and purpose. If the oneness of God included the concept that the God consisted of a single being then one must believe that we too can become a single being and become one in this way with God.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[Moonglow]

For anyone reading along, if you want to know the kind of fraud Joseph Smith was, look into the Book of Abraham. The history of this reads like a satire but it's absolutely true. He bought an Egyptian document from something like a peddler and "translated" it to be the writings of Abraham.

Many years later, real Egyptologists translated and it was a common Egyptian funeral/"breathing" document. Not a single word that Smith "translated" was true.

Hilariously, Mormons cover for this abject fraud by saying "you have to read it in the spirit" or some mumbo jumbo.

Old Joe was usually trying to get many wives to join his harem.