Mexican Cartels found with 20,499 US made guns

[Uncensored2008]

About the Violence Policy Center

Each year, more than 30,000 Americans die in gun suicides, homicides, and unintentional shootings as a result of the ready availability, and accessibility, of specific classes of firearms. Gun violence is more than a crime issue; it is a broad-based public health crisis of which crime is merely the most recognized aspect.

So, it's a gun grabber blog.

And you have the nerve to impugn FOX?

Sigh, there is no hypocrisy like demopocrisy....

 

[BolshevikHunter]

who said anything about disarming citizens? why cant you understand gun control does not equal gun elimination. if you cant understand that, then we cant have a civil debate.

It's kind of like how dope (pot) leads to stronger drugs. I don't see a difference between gun control and banning all firearms. Gun control is just the first few steps on the ladder. Before you know it, everything is in their control. If you give these assholes an inch, you can bet your ass that they will take a mile. They can fuck off. ~BH

thats where your argument has to change. i never said anything about banning all guns. i said banning automatic weapons, large capacity clips, requiring background check for all gun purchases public and private, and ballistic testing all weapons that manufacturer so they can be traced back to owners. can you debate these facts?

I have not even debated the subject with you until now, I was enjoying the show. Now you're gonna start running your fucking pie hole to me? Ok then, That's just my kind of party bro. Hey dummy? What part of gun control leads to banning all guns does your weak minded brain not comprehend? Come on, try real hard now? ~BH

 

[Uncensored2008]

who said anything about disarming citizens?

You DO understand that Mexico is a separate and sovereign nation, right? Any gun control will by fact be applicable ONLY to US Citizens, have ZERO impact on Mexico.

Again, do you kill your own dog to get the dog down to street to stop barking?

 

[Uncensored2008]

now if you could only prove i said i wanted gun elimination....... oh wait, never said it!

"Gun control" seeks to disarm the population at large, that is the ONLY reason for it. Even the limitation of arms ensures the superiority of weapons in the hands of the rulers. The aristocracy employs murderers like FBI assassin Lon Horiuchi, armed with .50 cal weapons. The best the peasantry can get is a .30-06 - superior fire power is denied to the ruled populace.

A free people are equal in arms to the government - else they soon cease to be free. I live in California, the second-least free state in the union. The crushing of civil liberties in California was preceded by disarming the population. Now California is a police state - it was a better place when it was free.

 

[Missourian]

[FONT=arial,arial]These are the 13 states with the most pro-Second Amendment laws according to the Brady Center (Oklahoma being the most pro-Second Amendment in the nation) with total firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the Census Bureau:[/FONT]​

----------State-----------------------------# of Firearm Homicides-----------Population​

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

• Arkansas ----------------------130 ------------2,810,872
• [FONT=arial,arial]Idaho -------------------------------------------------25 ---------------------1,466,465[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]New Mexico ---------------------------------------81 ---------------------1,954,599[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]South Dakota ---------------------------------------4 -----------------------781,919[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]West Virginia --------------------------------------37 --------------------1,818,470[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Mississippi ---------------------------------------119 ---------------------2,910,540[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Alaska -----------------------------------------------21 --------------------- 670,053[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Louisiana ------------------------------------------455----------------------4,287,768[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Missouri -------------------------------------------247 ---------------------5,842,713[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]North Dakota ----------------------------------------3 -----------------------635,867[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Utah ---------------------------------------------------38 --------------------2,550,063[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Kentucky ------------------------------------------131 --------------------4,206,074[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,arial]Oklahoma -------------------------------- --------132 --------------------3,579,212[/FONT]

And the 13 strictest gun control states according to the Brady Center (California being the strictest in the nation) with total firearm murders from 2007 according to the FBI and population from the Census Bureau:

• California -----------------------1,605-----36,457,549
• New Jersey ----------------------260-------8,724,560
• Connecticut ----------------------57 -------3,504,809
• Massachusetts ------------------114 -------6,437,193
• Maryland ------------------------414------- 5,615,727
• New York ------------------------500 -----19,306,183
• Rhode Island -------------------- --9 ------ 1,067,610
• Hawaii -----------------------------3 -------1,285,498
• Illinois ---------------------------343* -----12,831,970
• Pennsylvania ---------------------527 ------12,440,621
• Michigan -------------------------444 ------10,095,643
• Delaware--------------------------22 ---------853,476
• North Carolina--------------------369 --------8,856,505

* incomplete data received by the FBI




The District of Columbia is not listed on the Brady Center ranking list but it did have the strictest gun control in the nation in 2007:

• District of Columbia-----------------181--------581,530

So here is the break down for firearm homicides per number of citizens per state plus the District of Columbia with Washington D.C. being the most dangerous place to live with 1 out of every 3,212 residents murdered by firearms and Hawaii being the safest with 1 out of every 428,499 residents murdered by firearms.




The number listed is the population divided by the total firearm homicides to render 1 homicide per (X) number of residents. (Red are Strict Gun Control, Blue are Pro-gun)

1. District of Columbia -----------1 / 3,212
2. Louisiana ---------------------1 / 9,423
3. Maryland ---------------------1 / 13,564
4. Arkansas ---------------------1 / 21,622
5. California ---------------------1 / 22,714
6. Michigan ---------------------1 / 22,737
7. Pennsylvania -----------------1 / 23,606
8. Missouri ----------------------1 / 23,654
9. North Carolina ----------------1 / 24,001
10. New Mexico ------------------1 / 24,130
11. Mississippi --------------------1 / 24,458
12. Oklahoma --------------------1 / 25,115
13. Alaska -----------------------1 / 31,907
14. Kentucky ---------------------1 / 32,107
15. New Jersey -------------------1 / 33,556
16. Illinois ------------------------1 / 37,410
17. New York ---------------------1 / 38,612
18. Delaware ---------------------1 / 38,794
19. West Virgina ------------------1 / 49,147
20. Massachusetts ----------------1 / 56,466
21. Idaho -------------------------1 / 58,658
22. Connecticut -------------------1 / 61,487
23. Utah --------------------------1 / 67,106
24. Rhode Island -------------------1 / 118,623
25. South Dakota ------------------1 / 195,479
26. North Dakota -------------------1 / 211,955
27. Hawaii -------------------------1 / 428,499

Bottom line, stricter firearm laws have no effect on firearm homicides.




That is why the Brady Center and VPC uses violent crime or firearm deaths instead of actual firearm homicides even though the firearm homicides are provided by the FBI online every year.






Link to FBI Stats Table 20 Murder, by state, type of weapon, 2007. - Free Online Library

Link to Brady Center state rankings list Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Population from the U.S. Census Bureau 2007 Population Estimates

If you don't have Excel, you can use the April 1, 2000 Census data from Wikipedia...It's not perfect, but so close that it makes the same point. List of U.S. states and territories by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.



http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-and-justice-system/94179-open-carry-firearms-our-2nd-amendment-right-10.html#post1794625

 

[Missourian]

The people in the low gun ownership states must find other methods of committing suicide.

once again, thanks for adding absolutely nothing to this conversation.

This is a scientifically proven statement.


From the American Journal of Psychiatry:

Guns and suicide: possible effects of some specific legislation

CL Rich, JG Young, RC Fowler, J Wagner and NA Black


[SIZE=-1]Department of Psychiatry, University of California, San Diego.[/SIZE]
The authors describe suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and methods used for suicide in Toronto for 5 years before and after enactment of Canadian gun control legislation in 1978. They also present data from San Diego, Calif., where state laws attempt to limit access to guns by certain psychiatric patients. Both sets of data indicate that gun control legislation may have led to decreased use of guns by suicidal men, but the difference was apparently offset by an increase in suicide by leaping. In the case of men using guns for suicide, these data support a hypothesis of substitution of suicide method.

Guns and suicide: possible effects of some specific legislation -- Rich et al. 147 (3): 342 -- Am J Psychiatry
​

 

[Missourian]

once again, thanks for adding absolutely nothing to this conversation.

You are an utter moron. The stats you provided are for all firearm related deaths, which includes suicides.

If someone wishes to kill himself, he'll find a way. The relevant stats are murder rates overall (again, if somebody wishes to kill someone else, he will find a way), and crimes prevented. Of course, a nattering nabob of nonsense such as yourself will continue to claim that guns cause crime. They don't. People cause crime.

and what do people use to commit crimes retard? GUNS! and when it is easy to get guns, they use them! someone of below average intelligence would understand that, but time and time again all youve shown is that you like to spout of talking points, without ever adding anything of substance to the conversation.

the article i posted from says nothing about suicide rates or suicide deaths, it simply says "GUN DEATHS." and those state with lax gun control laws have higher rates of death by gun. i didnt think that was too hard to understand. but apparently you can read or comprehend simple english sentences. so just neg rep me again and be on your way. fucking dumbass.

Gun deaths includes suicide...my list of gun homicide much more accurately reveals the failure of gun control to prevent crime.

Only by including suicide can the VPC and Brady Campaign massage the statistics to their agenda.

And yet, according to the American Journal of Psychiatry, Gun Control has no effect on suicide statistics. When folks didn't have a gun, they jumped off a bridge instead.

 

[Missourian]

At the risk of repeating myself, you ignored these points earlier.


We have more legally owned firearms in this country than ever before in our history.

We are in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression.


And yet...


Crime has reached historic lows.

FBI: 5.5 percent drop in violent crime - Politics - msnbc.com

​

The increase in gun ownership and spread of Conceal Carry has coincided with the reduction in crime at a time when the depressed economy would usually lead to higher crime rates.


With these facts in mind...not the correlation but the fact that there are more guns and less crime...make your case for gun control.

 

[johnrocks]

My opinion is this...

Guns are illegal for the most part in Mexico.
Drugs are illegal in the United States.

Legalize guns in Mexico
Legalize drugs in the United States

Kill both black markets in one fell swoop.

 

[The T]

"More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report."


I am not advocating for a repeal of the 2nd amendment at all, but what are your opinions on gun control laws now knowing that so many US made weapons have found their way into the hands of drug cartels in mexico?

Report: Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S. - CNN.com

Mexican cartels now using ‘tanks’


And?

Plying the Pacific, Subs Surface as Key Tool of Drug Cartels


Our government wanted a Drug War? They got one...

 

[liebuster]

"More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report."


I am not advocating for a repeal of the 2nd amendment at all, but what are your opinions on gun control laws now knowing that so many US made weapons have found their way into the hands of drug cartels in mexico?

Report: Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S. - CNN.com

Noticed how it says "submitted". In other words they only sent the firearms that were suspected of being from the U.S, not all the firearms that they confiscated.

That makes a big difference. There are about 90 million gun owners in the U.S with most of them owning more than one gun. With only 20,000 of them turning up in Mexico is not that bad.

 

[candycorn]

"More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report."


I am not advocating for a repeal of the 2nd amendment at all, but what are your opinions on gun control laws now knowing that so many US made weapons have found their way into the hands of drug cartels in mexico?

Report: Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S. - CNN.com

And who says we don't export anything...liars!

 

[whitehall]

A Border Patrol officer was killed with a gun supplied to criminals by our own ATF. The people inside the ATF or outside the ATF who planned, authorized or carried out the world class stupid plan should go to jail. You have to consider that congressional "investigations" are often exercises in CYA and you can bet your ass-ets that nothing would have been done if democrats still held the majority. Let's see if the few Tea Party congress people can put some backbone into the hearing.

 

[Missourian]

and what do people use to commit crimes retard? GUNS! and when it is easy to get guns, they use them! someone of below average intelligence would understand that, but time and time again all youve shown is that you like to spout of talking points, without ever adding anything of substance to the conversation.

the article i posted from says nothing about suicide rates or suicide deaths, it simply says "GUN DEATHS." and those state with lax gun control laws have higher rates of death by gun. i didnt think that was too hard to understand. but apparently you can read or comprehend simple english sentences. so just neg rep me again and be on your way. fucking dumbass.

You really are a gullible shill for government propaganda, you sad little hack.

The data you provided is garbage. It isn't broken down by cause of death, whether or not the gun was legally owned and registered, and gang violence.


Gun related suicides outnumber gun related homicides across the country. People intent on suicide are going to find away. Someone doesn't just get a whim to kill himself because he has access to a gun (unless he's a moron like you, in which case, your paranoia is duly noted).

Most gun related homicides in the country are the result of drug gang violence. Legal gun owners are not the cause of that.

thanks for making up facts.... cause your evidence is overwhelming... wait you didnt post any evidence...... damn fucked up again didnt you?

Ever heard of the Kansas City Gun Experiment?

Kansas City Gun Experiment -- Kansas City, MO
​

Key findings: ​

The results of the evaluation indicate that directed police patrols in gun crime “hot spots” can reduce gun crimes by increasing the seizures of illegally carried guns.

Specific findings include:​

Gun seizures by police in the target area increased by more than 65 percent, while gun crimes declined in the target area by 49 percent (see exhibit 1).

Neither gun crimes nor guns seized changed significantly in a similar beat several miles away, where the directed patrol was not used.​

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/kang.pdf

​

 

[whitehall]

Are you people nuts? This ain't a 2nd Amendment issue. It's a crime committed by a federal law enforcement agency.

 

[Missourian]

Why is the Kansas City Gun Experiment important?

Because Guns don't kill people, Cities kill people.​

Why do the rural communities with twice as many legal gun owners and four times the owned firearms have 25 times less gun crime than urban communities?


Look here for firearm ownership study


Of the 22 Missouri counties with populations between 25K and 50K, having a combined population of 806,764 persons, there were 163 total firearm assaults and 2604 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.

(The 22 counties are Pulaski, Taney, Callaway, Phelps, Butler, Scott, Pettis, Camden, Howell, Lawrence, Barry, Webster, Laclede, Lafayette, Dunklin, Stone, Stoddard, Warren, Polk, Marion, Audrain, and Randolph.

You could filter reports by population in 2009, but that feature no longer yields a report for 2006 data...if you wish to check my work, you'll have to do it one county at a time HERE.)
​

During the same period, in only the city of St. Louis and the city of Kansas City contained within the state of Missouri (half is in Kansas of course), with a combined population of 793,587 persons, there were a total of 4,143 firearm assaults and 8986 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.



MSHP stats for St. Louis (PDF)



MSHP stats for KC, MO (PDF)





The 2006 stats on Missouri crime came from this website : Missouri State Highway Patrol Statisical Analysis Center, they are the most recent available.

The 2004 rural/urban chart came from this website : Department of Health Policy and Management, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA 2004 study.








Originally posted in http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/57213-why-are-guns-so-important-to-americans-9.html#post763457

 

[whitehall]

Why is the Kansas City Gun Experiment important?

Because Guns don't kill people, Cities kill people.​

Why do the rural communities with twice as many legal gun owners and four times the owned firearms have 25 times less gun crime than urban communities?


Look here for firearm ownership study


Of the 22 Missouri counties with populations between 25K and 50K, having a combined population of 806,764 persons, there were 163 total firearm assaults and 2604 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.

(The 22 counties are Pulaski, Taney, Callaway, Phelps, Butler, Scott, Pettis, Camden, Howell, Lawrence, Barry, Webster, Laclede, Lafayette, Dunklin, Stone, Stoddard, Warren, Polk, Marion, Audrain, and Randolph.

You could filter reports by population in 2009, but that feature no longer yields a report for 2006 data...if you wish to check my work, you'll have to do it one county at a time HERE.)
​

During the same period, in only the city of St. Louis and the city of Kansas City contained within the state of Missouri (half is in Kansas of course), with a combined population of 793,587 persons, there were a total of 4,143 firearm assaults and 8986 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.



MSHP stats for St. Louis (PDF)



MSHP stats for KC, MO (PDF)





The 2006 stats on Missouri crime came from this website : Missouri State Highway Patrol Statisical Analysis Center, they are the most recent available.

The 2004 rural/urban chart came from this website : Department of Health Policy and Management, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA 2004 study.





.

Originally posted in http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/57213-why-are-guns-so-important-to-americans-9.html#post763457[/QUOTE]

It don't matter if statistics say that cities kill people or whatever Harvard's convoluted egg heads have to say. When the BATF (federal bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms) cause Americans to be killed by the firearms they intentionally placed in criminals hands it brings the issue to a whole different level..

 

[Missourian]

Are you people nuts? This ain't a 2nd Amendment issue. It's a crime committed by a federal law enforcement agency.

I agree 100%, and I think we established that by the end of page one. I base that on the fact that Skynet fastidiously ignored each and every one of those post.

S/he wanted to debate gun control instead.

So we humored him/her.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Are you people nuts? This ain't a 2nd Amendment issue. It's a crime committed by a federal law enforcement agency.

It's a crime committed by the executive branch of the federal government - including the DOJ.

 

[boedicca]

so people who commit or want to suicide arent mentally ill?

They may not be mentally ill at the time they purchase a gun. Are you advocating for the government to perform frequent psych evaluations on all gun owners?

There are also valid reasons for a sane person to commit suicide, such as facing excruciating pain from an incurable illness.

so youre claming someone who want to die because they are dying is the same as someone who wants to go out in a blaze of glory as the same?

it thin euthanasia should be legal, but thats a separate debate. what about a person who has been bullied their whole and see no way out but death? should that not be treated? what about the Loughner who shot Giffords, should he have been able to legally buy a gun knowing his mental background? these are "law abiding" citizens, who legally got guns and either killed people or committed suicide.

you can only control one point of gun distribution and that is at the seller. so there should be rules place to make those who purchase guns are responsible enough to use that gun. maybe you should be required to take a fire arms safety test, just the same way you take a drivers test. would you disagree with that?

We already have laws against selling guns to insane people, so you are spinning a strawman.