Mass genocide, last 100 years, incl. Holocaust (on 6 million Jews)

[Intense]

Grandma -

This is actually my field of expertise as a journalist, so I'm going to claim I actually know what I am talking about on this one!

Mot experts consider genocide to be a deliberate attempt to wipe a people off the map. So what we consider 'a people' could be defined in several different ways.

But it's usually considered that it is one group (i.e. Germans, Australians) attacking another group (Namibian Herero, Tasmanian Aborigines).

I do not believe Stalin, Mao nor Pol Pot committed genocide, because they did not (by and large) target specific ethnicities, religions or tribes. They committed mass murder.

However, Rwanda did experience genocide (Hutu against Tutsi) in 1994, and there have been several other instances in this century.

Still breaks down to "Us and Them".

 

[Saigon]

Still breaks down to "Us and Them".

Not really, no.

When Mao had normal Chinese people kiled or tortured, he was largely murdering his own people. Likewise a Pinochet or Stalin.

Neither Pol Pot, Mao nor Stalin* regularly or systematically attached particular ethnic groups to any great degree.

Pol Pot's Cambodia was not a very multi-cultural society, with only small groups of Karen, Shan and Hmong living largely along the borders. No doubt he would have targetted them had they been more sizeable, but there is no evidence that he ever sought to wipe any of the groups out prior to the Viet Namese invasion.

*Stalin did target ethnic Germans and later in his life began to target Jews, but these are more exceptions than examples of common practice. One could also claim that he oppressed Ukranians, but his inner circle included a half dozen different ethnicities (Azeris, Armenians, Latvians, etc).

 

[mememe]

You left out Stalin and Pol Pot.

Also, Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, another Bush, Obama and scores of British PMs.

 

[mememe]

Btw., in "victims of Holocaust" were counted

1. Jews that were killed or died during WW2;
2. Jews that LEFT Europe either for US or Palestine (but they were alive);
3. Jews that after the WW2 were no longer counted as "Jews" by US Zionists because they were not religious or Christian (but they were alive).

 

[mememe]

Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 6,000,000 (the gulags plus the purges plus Ukraine's famine)

Let's do simple math, shall we?

In 1926 in the USSR there lived about 147 million people;
in 1937 -- 163 million;
in 1939 -- 170 million people...

Now, according to you, "Stalin" murdered 60 million just in prisons, plus (what was the number given to you by Dr. Goebbelse for "Ukrainian Holodomor"? 7 million?) 7 million in Ukraine, plus 29 million killed during WW2, plus 3 million (according to you) killed as German POW, plus let's say 2 million who died because of old age, crimes and illnesses... It leaves us with about 69 million total Soviet population by the end of WW2????!!!!!!! And in 1959 (after 15 years!) the population of the USSR was already 209 million people!!!!!!!

You are not just STOOPID in repeating your propaganda mantras and slogans without a slightest attempt at thinking. You are INFINITELY DUMB! And clearly, in US Math is not a subject taught at schools.

 

[mememe]

Stalin targeted religious minorities and specific ethnic groups and nationalities.


.

Name them, please.

 

[Colin]

Ismail Enver did not commit any genocide.
He combatted terrorists.

Yeh, right. I guess that's why Ismail Enver was convicted by the Turkish court and condemned to death for "the extermination and destruction of the Armenians."

"The Ottoman Empire should be cleansed of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation." -- Enver Pasha, May 1916

The Genocide Begins

At this time, about forty thousand Armenian men were serving in the Turkish Army. In the fall and winter of 1914, all of their weapons were confiscated and they were put into slave labor battalions building roads or were used as human pack animals. Under the brutal work conditions they suffered a very high death rate. Those who survived would soon be shot outright. For the time had come to move against the Armenians.

The decision to annihilate the entire population came directly from the ruling triumvirate of ultra-nationalist Young Turks. The actual extermination orders were transmitted in coded telegrams to all provincial governors throughout Turkey. Armed roundups began on the evening of April 24, 1915, as 300 Armenian political leaders, educators, writers, clergy and dignitaries in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were taken from their homes, briefly jailed and tortured, then hanged or shot.

Next, there were mass arrests of Armenian men throughout the country by Turkish soldiers, police agents and bands of Turkish volunteers. The men were tied together with ropes in small groups then taken to the outskirts of their town and shot dead or bayoneted by death squads. Local Turks and Kurds armed with knives and sticks often joined in on the killing.

Then it was the turn of Armenian women, children, and the elderly. On very short notice, they were ordered to pack a few belongings and be ready to leave home, under the pretext that they were being relocated to a non-military zone for their own safety. They were actually being taken on death marches heading south toward the Syrian Desert.

Armenian Genocide | United Human Rights Council

And turkey remains the only major country to deny the Armenian genocide!

 

[Saigon]

Colin -

In totally agree - the Armenian Genocide is as clear an example of genocide as we are ever likely to see, and it is to the eternal shame of Turkey that they deny it.

 

[Unkotare]

Pol Pot targeted city-dwellers, anyone with even a moderate level of education (if you wore glasses, well...), ethnic Chinese and Vietnamese were identified and slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands, the Cham indigenous minority in Cambodia were particularly singled out and systematically exterminated, Muslims were put to death, more than half the Cambodian Catholics 'disappeared' almost overnight and all houses of worship destroyed.

That's genocide.

 

[Unkotare]

Stalin targeted the Chechens and the Ingush, foreign ethnicities such as Poles, Germans, and Koreans were executed in the hundreds of thousands, mass deportations resulted in the loss of almost half of several groups subjected to such treatment (think Trail of Tears x 100,000). Hundreds of thousands of Russian Orthodox members, nuns, and priests were executed, their houses of worship destroyed. Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, and other religious minorities were also targeted.


That's genocide.

 

[Unkotare]

Mao targeted Tibetans, Uyghurs (ask a member of either group for details, if you have the stomach for it), Christians, ethnic Koreans were singled out, the Dai people of Yunnan were targeted as well as others of China's many ethnic minorities.


That's genocide.

 

[mememe]

Stalin targeted the Chechens and the Ingush,

foreign ethnicities such as Poles,

Germans, and

Koreans were executed in the hundreds of thousands,


Russian Orthodox members, nuns, and priests were executed, their houses of worship destroyed.

Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims,

1. Not "deportations" but RESETTLEMENTS. For Crimean Tatars, Chechens and Ingush they were obligatory for the acts of genocide against non-Chechen/Ingush/Crimean Tatar citizens during WW2; for Poles they were VOLUNTARY.
And yes, regarding Chechens, Ingush and Crimean Tatars Stalin demonstrated undue leniency: according to war time laws practically all males of a certain age had to be executed, instead they were simply send with their families to live in other parts of the country.
How is that "genocide", you twat?

With Poles and West Ukrainians actively engaged in mass murders of each other during German occupation of West Ukraine, the only sensible option to stop mutual hatred was to allow Poles to leave for Poland and to allow West Ukrainians to move from Poland to West Ukraine.
How is that "genocide", you twat?

2. Germans were also sent away from the front lines. Unlike US that put all of its people of Japanese ethnicity into the CONCENTRATION CAMPS just because of their ethnicity!
How is that "genocide", you twat?

3. Koreans were also RESETTLED, not "deported" to other parts of the USSR to remove them from zone of continuous conflicts in the Far East.
For comparison see example with US Japanese population.
How is that "genocide", you twat?

4. Russian Orthodoxy came under repressions as part of LENIN-TROTSKY RED TERROR policy. Stalin not only stopped it, he issued a number of decrees returning the rights and the property to Russian Orthodox Church.
Try to INVESTIGATE the issue before stomping into discussion with your patent American ignorance, you stoopido!
How is that "genocide", you twat?

5. Neither of these religions came under repressions.

 

[Unkotare]

Stalin targeted the Chechens and the Ingush,

foreign ethnicities such as Poles,

Germans, and

Koreans were executed in the hundreds of thousands,


Russian Orthodox members, nuns, and priests were executed, their houses of worship destroyed.

Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims,

1. Not "deportations" but RESETTLEMENTS. For Crimean Tatars, Chechens and Ingush they were obligatory for the acts of genocide against non-Chechen/Ingush/Crimean Tatar citizens during WW2; for Poles they were VOLUNTARY.
And yes, regarding Chechens, Ingush and Crimean Tatars Stalin demonstrated undue leniency: according to war time laws practically all males of a certain age had to be executed, instead they were simply send with their families to live in other parts of the country.


With Poles and West Ukrainians actively engaged in mass murders of each other during German occupation of West Ukraine, the only sensible option to stop mutual hatred was to allow Poles to leave for Poland and to allow West Ukrainians to move from Poland to West Ukraine.


2. Germans were also sent away from the front lines. Unlike US that put all of its people of Japanese ethnicity into the CONCENTRATION CAMPS just because of their ethnicity!


3. Koreans were also RESETTLED, not "deported" to other parts of the USSR to remove them from zone of continuous conflicts in the Far East.
For comparison see example with US Japanese population.


4. Russian Orthodoxy came under repressions as part of LENIN-TROTSKY RED TERROR policy. Stalin not only stopped it, he issued a number of decrees returning the rights and the property to Russian Orthodox Church.


5. Neither of these religions came under repressions.

Congratulations on being able to live with yourself being an apologist shill eagerly lying and spinning on behalf of a murderous tyrant scumbag like Stalin. Be sure and rub that shit all over yourself and deep into every pore, you sub-human son of a bitch. You are not just ignorant of history, you are willfully and actively antagonistic to humanity itself.

 

[Saigon]

It's a wonderful thing to watch two childish lightweights feast on each others flesh...it's like a civil war between fleas.

Except that fleas there is always the vague chance one might have heard of the Shan or the Ingushetians.

 

[Unkotare]

It's a wonderful thing to watch two childish lightweights.

I can imagine how that might make someone like you feel (more) insecure.

 

[Saigon]

Maybe we can get back to the topic with a BBC definition of genocide:

"It is the mass extermination of a whole group of people, an attempt to destroy an entire group and wipe them out of existence."

To my mind this patently excludes many of the events thus far listed in this thread. I think we can assume that neither Mao nor Stalin intended to wipe their own people out of existence - though this hardly excuses the numbers they did exterminate.

The BBC lists the the obvious cases from recent history:

- The mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks between 1915-1920

- The Holocaust, during which more than six million Jews were killed

- Rwanda, where an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus died in the 1994 genocide

Other less clear cases ilisted by the BBC nclude:

- In Bosnia, the 1995 massacre at Srebrenica has been ruled to be genocide by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).

- And others give a long list of what they consider cases of genocide, including the Soviet man-made famine of Ukraine (1932-33), the Indonesian invasion of East Timor (1975), and the Khmer Rouge killings in Cambodia in the 1970s.

- The International Criminal Court in 2010 issued an arrest warrant for the President of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, on genocide charges.

BBC News - Analysis: Defining genocide

I would also highlight some very clear earlier cases:

- Australian settlers wiping out the Tasmanian aborigines (early 19th century)

- German settlers wiping out the Herero people in Namibia (early 20th century)

I also think the wholesale slaughter of Congolese people by Leopold's Belgian forces in the late 19th century must come very close to genocide.

 

[Unkotare]

Maybe we can get back to the topic with a BBC definition of genocide:

"It is the mass extermination of a whole group of people, an attempt to destroy an entire group and wipe them out of existence."

To my mind this patently excludes many of the events thus far listed in this thread. .

Why don't you try reading some of the thread, jackass?

 

[syrenn]

genocide...mass murder.... who gives a flying fuck what version of semantics you want to use....

does it really matter the splinting of the hair?

 

[Saigon]

genocide...mass murder.... who gives a flying fuck what version of semantics you want to use....

does it really matter the splinting of the hair?

It doesn't matter to the people who died, that's for sure!

It's just something I have become interested in because of covering Namibia, Rwanda, Nagorno-Karabakh and Cambodia. They are each so different as conflicts that I feel the need to use a different vocabulary.

I do think the question of intention is important - that the Hutu set out with the express purpose of removing Tutsi from the face of the earth is to my mind a far deeper evil than other less planned and less mechanised and orchestrated acts of mass murder such as we have seen in so many places around the world.

 

[syrenn]

genocide...mass murder.... who gives a flying fuck what version of semantics you want to use....

does it really matter the splinting of the hair?

It doesn't matter to the people who died, that's for sure!

It's just something I have become interested in because of covering Namibia, Rwanda, Nagorno-Karabakh and Cambodia. They are each so different as conflicts that I feel the need to use a different vocabulary.

I do think the question of intention is important - that the Hutu set out with the express purpose of removing Tutsi from the face of the earth is to my mind a far deeper evil than other less planned and less mechanised and orchestrated acts of mass murder such as we have seen in so many places around the world.

yes... the hutu/tutsi sprung to my mind to... but was in the subsequent list.

at this point.... i really dont care about the semantics of it...... its ALL mass murder.... i really dont give a shit what the "reason" is.