Kevin Tillman... Take It As You See Fit

NATO AIR

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Reactions? Remember he signed up to kill Taliban & Al-Qaeda...
not to fight in Iraq which hadn't happened at the time of their enlistment.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we got out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/
 

onedomino

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Man overboard! NATO, I could not disagree more with your recent posts. The article posted above reads like the kind of twisted crap one finds published in Le Monde. I am not going to dispute the outrageous tripe written by Kevin Tillman, who wears sympathy for his brother like a political campaign button. It is, however, interesting to observe that in an article where he shits all over the "illegal invasion" of Iraq, Kevin Tillman reminds us that he is Pat Tillman's brother, but somehow fails to recall for his readers that Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. It sucks ass when someone uses sympathy for another, not to educate with fact, but rather to bloviate a political agenda. He uses his dead brother (how do we know what Pat's views on Iraq would be?) as a crutch because he does not have the strength to let his own arguments rise or fall as they may. I would say that Kevin Tillman has dishonored the memory of his brother, if not for the fact that nothing, not even political excrement, could ever dishonor Pat's sacrifice.
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trobinett

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Man overboard! NATO, I could not disagree more with your recent posts. The article posted above reads like the kind of twisted crap one finds published in Le Monde. I am not going to dispute the outrageous tripe written by Kevin Tillman, who wears sympathy for his brother like a political campaign button. It is, however, interesting to observe that in an article where he shits all over the "illegal invasion" of Iraq, Kevin Tillman reminds us that he is Pat Tillman's brother, but somehow fails to recall for his readers that Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. It sucks ass when someone uses sympathy for another, not to educate with fact, but rather to bloviate a political agenda. He uses his dead brother (how do we know what Pat's views on Iraq would be?) as a crutch because he does not have the strength to let his own arguments rise or fall as they may. I would say that Kevin Tillman has dishonored the memory of his brother, if not for the fact nothing, not even political excrement, could ever dishonor Pat's sacrifice.
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Wow, great post onedomino.

Kinda nailed his hide to the ground, not much wiggle room there!

They don't make many like Pat Tillman anymore.:rock:
 

Annie

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I can understand a brother being very upset by his brother's death, especially in light to the way his brother died. However, that doesn't make his 'points' anymore factual than those found on DU, etc.

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that. I guess this is supposed to be about the 'reasons' for Iraq invasion, that were never solely about WMD and never about Nigerian yellow cake.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is. This means what?

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military. Again, if enough things are 'thrown' some might stick. In any case, these are all they types of things that should have have been 'secret' but obviously weren't as we all, including Kevin, know about them.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat. Ok, so we shouldn't have kids write to soldiers? That will help?

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes. I can't believe someone posted this was well written. Did you mean without spelling errors?

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground. This is sounding more and more like John Kerry in the 1970's.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started. Even moreso

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated. Who is he talking about? Our soldiers? Why mercyme, could this all be about Bush?

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated. Oh my, why do I hear 'Halliburton?'

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated. Now who is supposed to be? We know well over 2k US military killed. Any ninny would assume about 10X or more Iraqis, either civilians or insurgents. Hundreds? Would that be Afghanistan? Nope, would have to assume more there too. So where?

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated. Uh, yeah, right.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe. With Congress and US Supreme Court in basic agreement.

Somehow torture is tolerated. Ok, once again this is getting just off.

Somehow lying is tolerated. ditto

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense. ditto

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world. Right, this is getting old.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality. :tinfoil:

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is. :cuckoo:

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world. That started well before 9/11, much less Iraq.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance. Maybe in his world.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country. No, in actuality they are trying to win Nov. 7 and TAKE control of what they can.

Somehow this is tolerated. As oppossed to assissination or what? :dunno:

Somehow nobody is accountable for this. On this perhaps we can agree, go vote.
 
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NATO AIR

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According to an assortment of documents he wrote himself and from statements made to numerous family members, Pat Tillman was against the Iraq War and a critic of Pres. Bush.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

The above article also references the combat service of Pat & Kevin in both Iraq & Afghanistan. Color me unimpressed with any attempts to label Kevin or Pat a pinko. These were and continue to be rational criticisms founded in personal experience and passionate belief. Whether I agree with them or not is not the issue, I respect the sacrifice they made and after the hell this family has gone through with the Army lying every step of the way about what happened to their fallen son, I have that MUCH MORE respect for what he's saying.

Given the fact that we are losing (by our own definitions, please for God's sake stop reading delusional rags like NRO & the Weekly Standard and listen to both the military and the respectable news outlets like the Wall Street Journal that are being realistic about the challenges we face) in both Afghanistan & Iraq, that we've just signed into law dubious legislation of questionable worth and value regarding what can be done to US citizens in violation of the most basic tenets of the US Constitution, that we continue to be utterly unserious about fighting and succeeding in the wars we are in and the challenges we face, I'm sorry if my recent posts seem negative.

If so, hey, my bad, I'm just accepting the truth and trying to offer some ideas and different perspective.

For example, I post Lind's letter to Gen. Jim Jones about how to fight a better war in Afghanistan, I know Lind knows what he's talking about because we continue to bomb houses with innocent people in them far too often on the word of an informer who we're paying for obviously dubious information. Because our NATO allies are not serious about securing Afghanistan, because Pakistan plays a deadly double game with us on the border regions where the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are recovering, and because we lack both a basic cultural and geographical understanding of Afghanistan, let alone Iraq.

You seem to think this is giving up on Afghanistan & Iraq. Its not, its being realistic about the precarious situations we are in. WE ARE LOSING. REPEAT.. WE ARE FUCKING LOSING. Its a harsh truth, but its there. In the facts, in the numbers, on the ground. LOSING!

So we have to respond to this emergency by not cutting and running or blindly following useless strategy & tactics, but recognizing things like (a) sitting down and talking seriously with Syria & Iran about shutting the Iraqi border and cooling it down, before the millions of refugees fleeing the violence stream across the borders into these countries and others and destablize them and (b) realizing we have no option but to co-opt the majority ethnic group in Afghanistan, the Pashtuns, away from the Taliban.

Ignoring these realities and indeed mindlessly criticising them is only going to lose the wars even worse than they are being lost now.
 

jillian

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I guess this is supposed to be about the 'reasons' for Iraq invasion, that were never solely about WMD and never about Nigerian yellow cake.
No? It was about "imminent risk"... that reason turned out to be wrong, so they went to the next...

Again, if enough things are 'thrown' some might stick. In any case, these are all they types of things that should have have been 'secret' but obviously weren't as we all, including Kevin, know about them.
Which part of the statement isn't true? we already know that we have secret prisons; that people are being "detained" without attorneys, without charges, without trial. Just because we call them "illegal combatants" doesn't mean they are... it means someone decided they are and they can't challenge the assertion.

Ok, so we shouldn't have kids write to soldiers? That will help?
Where did he say that? He was saying that it's not going to protect them when they're attacked. I think he means supporting the troops means not getting them blown up for nebulous reasons.

I can't believe someone posted this was well written. Did you mean without spelling errors?
You not hear Bush's speech this morning? He said: we can't get out of Iraq because a lot of people have already died. I'd say that's pretty close to what Tillman's brother said. No?

This is sounding more and more like John Kerry in the 1970's.
Could be because this situation is as messed up as that one was.

Even moreso
Nope... he's just saying the chicken hawks, like the one who got 5 deferrments from service in Vietnam are the ones who are being so cavalier in their decisions.

Why mercyme, could this all be about Bush?
If the shoe fits.

Oh my, why do I hear 'Halliburton?'
Ditto....

you mean Haliburton hasn't profited? Or is war profiteering ok by you?

So where?
Oh... I dunno... perhaps starting with the latest state department reports? I'd say the new figures are high... but the 10's of thousands things is a bare minimum we can all agree on, no?

Uh, yeah, right.
Uh, yeah... right.

With Congress and US Supreme Court in basic agreement.
You mean Bush's Congress and Bush's Court? RAFLMAO!

Ok, once again this is getting just off.
Apparently you haven't read that little gem of a bill passed a couple of weeks ago where the pres gets to decide what torture is and who it can be used against?

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Right, this is getting old.
Because your opinion doesn't concur?

That started well before 9/11, much less Iraq.
Except that now we have no international credibility. You can decide you don't care about it, but it's fact.

Maybe in his world.
If you ask the average person, they have no clue what's going on. It's only a small percentage of us who follow these things closely. (and by us, I'm not referring to any particular "side", but to the politics junkies).

No, in actuality they are trying to win Nov. 7 and TAKE control of what they can.
I think I'll go with his definitions. ;)

As oppossed to assissination or what?
Oh my... where'd he say that?

On this perhaps we can agree, go vote./QUOTE]

It's a start.

Oh... and if you don't want the garbage that comes off of the blogs, you might want to check out this site... real Iraq and Afghanistan vets talking about the real things they're facing.

http://www.iava.org/index.php
 

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