Justice In Modern America

[Billy_Kinetta]

I mean, really.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/07/teen-takes-plea-deal-in-killing-of-classmate-who-rejected-prom-invite/

 

[bullwinkle]

I mean, really.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/07/teen-takes-plea-deal-in-killing-of-classmate-who-rejected-prom-invite/

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

I'd fry him. Really.

Some people are just evil. It's a fact.

 

[Auld Phart]

I mean, really.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/07/teen-takes-plea-deal-in-killing-of-classmate-who-rejected-prom-invite/

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

 

[bullwinkle]

I mean, really.

Teen gets off easy for killing classmate who rejected prom invite | New York Post

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society? This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime? The really hardened and beyond redemption from the stupid and careless? Are you aware of anyone who really deserves a second chance but can't get it because of a record?

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

I mean, really.

Teen gets off easy for killing classmate who rejected prom invite | New York Post

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society?

I don't completely fathom the practice of returning garbage to society. Is it some kind of societal hoarding instinct?

This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime?

Sure. Most prisoners shouldn't even be in jail. Offer them a choice of cell time or snap a tracker on them for the duration of their sentence and assign them work.

There is no reason to retain the truly dangerous and violent among us.

 

[bullwinkle]

I mean, really.

Teen gets off easy for killing classmate who rejected prom invite | New York Post

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society?

I don't completely fathom the practice of returning garbage to society. Is it some kind of societal hoarding instinct?

This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime?

Sure. Most prisoners shouldn't even be in jail. Offer them a choice of cell time or snap a tracker on them for the duration of their sentence and assign them work.

There is no reason to retain the truly dangerous and violent among us.

Now Ms. Scarlett, don't give yourself the vapors! Our current system isn't redeeming. It is like a Mark of Cain. so I asked someone more experienced than me to comment and suggest. I have no sympathy for violent criminals but I'm guessing that there are a lot more who could be salvaged as decent citizens than we are currently doing if we work on it.

 

[jon_berzerk]

reading the original story it looks like he planned it

the problem is plea deals

they should end that practice

 

[bullwinkle]

reading the original story it looks like he planned it

the problem is plea deals

they should end that practice

I've heard arguments for and against plea deals, but I can't figure what this kid has to deal with. It isn't like he can offer info that would convict an accomplice.

 

[jon_berzerk]

reading the original story it looks like he planned it

the problem is plea deals

they should end that practice

I've heard arguments for and against plea deals, but I can't figure what this kid has to deal with. It isn't like he can offer info that would convict an accomplice.

exactly the plea was save the time and trouble of a long drawn out court case

 

[Disgruntled_American]

I mean, really.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/07/teen-takes-plea-deal-in-killing-of-classmate-who-rejected-prom-invite/

Sorry I don't think the punishment fits the crime in this case. He shouldn't be allowed to walk free ever IMO. 13 years from now when he gets out, the girl is still dead and her parents, friends and family will have to deal with that loss far more than 13 years. For those worried about ruining his life with a harsher sentence, I say "What about the family and their harsh life they now have to live without their daughter?".

While this kid isn't a gang member, it is a primary reason why gangs recruit underage people to do "dirty" work because they get off far easier in juvenile courts. juvenile courts need serious reform. IMO, murder even as a teenager should be tried as an adult.

 

[Disgruntled_American]

reading the original story it looks like he planned it

the problem is plea deals

they should end that practice

I've heard arguments for and against plea deals, but I can't figure what this kid has to deal with. It isn't like he can offer info that would convict an accomplice.

exactly the plea was save the time and trouble of a long drawn out court case

I'm sure the parents of the teen appreciate that tax money is saved.

 

[Conservative65]

I mean, really.

Teen gets off easy for killing classmate who rejected prom invite | New York Post

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society? This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime? The really hardened and beyond redemption from the stupid and careless? Are you aware of anyone who really deserves a second chance but can't get it because of a record?

If someone that is hardened and beyond redemption commits the same crime with the same result as someone doing something stupid, what's the difference? If an innocent person dies, how is the innocent person killed by someone stupid any less dead than the innocent person killed by a hardened criminal?

 

[bullwinkle]

I mean, really.

Teen gets off easy for killing classmate who rejected prom invite | New York Post

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society? This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime? The really hardened and beyond redemption from the stupid and careless? Are you aware of anyone who really deserves a second chance but can't get it because of a record?

If someone that is hardened and beyond redemption commits the same crime with the same result as someone doing something stupid, what's the difference? If an innocent person dies, how is the innocent person killed by someone stupid any less dead than the innocent person killed by a hardened criminal?

Good point, conservative. And like you, I believe everyone should pay for their mistakes. But I am not talking violent criminals, intentional or stupid. Let me explain where I'm coming from. Before I retired I was a bean counter for several managers at a large international corporation. One of my 'peeps' managed a unit in Pennsylvania. He had an employee so dependable who excelled at whatever job he did. This manager wanted to place this man in a supervisory position. Alas, it came to light that this 26 year old man had served time 7 years ago for theft, and instead of a promotion, this manager had to fire this excellent employee, for lying on his app. He had paid for his mistake, and at the rate we are going, he will pay for the rest of his life. Conversely, if he hadn't lied on his app, he would never have been considered, and now all his effort to redeem himself circles the drain. Anyway, this is what I had in mind when I queried advice on system changes. I repeat I have no sympathy for violence, or theft, but I was thinking of after the conviction has been marked "Paid!".

 

[Katzndogz]

I mean, really.

Teen gets off easy for killing classmate who rejected prom invite | New York Post

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society? This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime? The really hardened and beyond redemption from the stupid and careless? Are you aware of anyone who really deserves a second chance but can't get it because of a record?

If someone that is hardened and beyond redemption commits the same crime with the same result as someone doing something stupid, what's the difference? If an innocent person dies, how is the innocent person killed by someone stupid any less dead than the innocent person killed by a hardened criminal?

Good point, conservative. And like you, I believe everyone should pay for their mistakes. But I am not talking violent criminals, intentional or stupid. Let me explain where I'm coming from. Before I retired I was a bean counter for several managers at a large international corporation. One of my 'peeps' managed a unit in Pennsylvania. He had an employee so dependable who excelled at whatever job he did. This manager wanted to place this man in a supervisory position. Alas, it came to light that this 26 year old man had served time 7 years ago for theft, and instead of a promotion, this manager had to fire this excellent employee, for lying on his app. He had paid for his mistake, and at the rate we are going, he will pay for the rest of his life. Conversely, if he hadn't lied on his app, he would never have been considered, and now all his effort to redeem himself circles the drain. Anyway, this is what I had in mind when I queried advice on system changes. I repeat I have no sympathy for violence, or theft, but I was thinking of after the conviction has been marked "Paid!".

And this stellar employee just never tried for an expungement or pardon? Funny that. Why not? Possibly because on-going criminal activity made it impossible.

 

[Conservative65]

I mean, really.

Teen gets off easy for killing classmate who rejected prom invite | New York Post

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society? This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime? The really hardened and beyond redemption from the stupid and careless? Are you aware of anyone who really deserves a second chance but can't get it because of a record?

If someone that is hardened and beyond redemption commits the same crime with the same result as someone doing something stupid, what's the difference? If an innocent person dies, how is the innocent person killed by someone stupid any less dead than the innocent person killed by a hardened criminal?

Good point, conservative. And like you, I believe everyone should pay for their mistakes. But I am not talking violent criminals, intentional or stupid. Let me explain where I'm coming from. Before I retired I was a bean counter for several managers at a large international corporation. One of my 'peeps' managed a unit in Pennsylvania. He had an employee so dependable who excelled at whatever job he did. This manager wanted to place this man in a supervisory position. Alas, it came to light that this 26 year old man had served time 7 years ago for theft, and instead of a promotion, this manager had to fire this excellent employee, for lying on his app. He had paid for his mistake, and at the rate we are going, he will pay for the rest of his life. Conversely, if he hadn't lied on his app, he would never have been considered, and now all his effort to redeem himself circles the drain. Anyway, this is what I had in mind when I queried advice on system changes. I repeat I have no sympathy for violence, or theft, but I was thinking of after the conviction has been marked "Paid!".

Depends on what you call paid. If someone gets 10 and serves less than 10, the bill isn't paid. My mortgage, when I took it out, was for 15 years. At the 10 year point, because I had paid regularly and on time, does that mean I no longer have to pay the remaining balance?

 

[bullwinkle]

When you are 18, 13 years is a long time. I know the article is in the NYPost which is pretty good at sensationalism, but this kid sounds unrepentant and very very crazy. If he can't cope with a date turn-down, What will he do if he gets laid off or doesn't win at euchre? I doubt prison will teach him to cope better.

18?

The cons will love the fresh meat.

He may learn a lot of things in the next 13 years.

Will, if it were within your power, what changes would you make to our prison system to bring it into line with our best intent of returning reformed people to society? This would be way over my head, but is it possible to separate prisoners by category of crime? The really hardened and beyond redemption from the stupid and careless? Are you aware of anyone who really deserves a second chance but can't get it because of a record?

If someone that is hardened and beyond redemption commits the same crime with the same result as someone doing something stupid, what's the difference? If an innocent person dies, how is the innocent person killed by someone stupid any less dead than the innocent person killed by a hardened criminal?

Good point, conservative. And like you, I believe everyone should pay for their mistakes. But I am not talking violent criminals, intentional or stupid. Let me explain where I'm coming from. Before I retired I was a bean counter for several managers at a large international corporation. One of my 'peeps' managed a unit in Pennsylvania. He had an employee so dependable who excelled at whatever job he did. This manager wanted to place this man in a supervisory position. Alas, it came to light that this 26 year old man had served time 7 years ago for theft, and instead of a promotion, this manager had to fire this excellent employee, for lying on his app. He had paid for his mistake, and at the rate we are going, he will pay for the rest of his life. Conversely, if he hadn't lied on his app, he would never have been considered, and now all his effort to redeem himself circles the drain. Anyway, this is what I had in mind when I queried advice on system changes. I repeat I have no sympathy for violence, or theft, but I was thinking of after the conviction has been marked "Paid!".

And this stellar employee just never tried for an expungement or pardon? Funny that. Why not? Possibly because on-going criminal activity made it impossible.

Tipsycat, may whoever judges you use your measure.

 

[JOSweetHeart]

13 years for a murder to me is a wrist slapping. If life in prison is not an option when a person is takes another life for a reason like the reason why this kid killed that girl, fifty to seventy five is more like it, especially if he doesn't regret what he did.

God bless you and the girl's family always!!!

Holly

 

[EverCurious]

The life-long badge of being a felon is one of the few remaining deterrents of crime. The purpose of prison has been turned into "a learning experience" to turn "bad people good" and meanwhile we're educating our kids to take no responsibility for their actions - brilliant... I personally think that the mere possibility of prison should be so heinous, so disturbing, that everyone makes the decision not to risk it and commit crimes because the pussy-footing crap we've been doing is pretty apparent to be ineffective as hell - just look at the repeat offenders and blatant lawlessness these days. These folks don't give two shits about the law and prison is more like detention than an actual punishment... But perhaps that's a different conversation.

I do not believe that anyone commits a crime on "accident" - regardless of if you're stealing or killing, you either a) know it's wrong and restrain yourself or b) you do it anyway. I hear people saying "well kids don't know any better" and I say bullshit. If, as in this case, some twit can't handle rejection from a stupid prom, he is not going to handle real life where rejection of some form or another is pretty much a daily occurrence for the vast majority of folks. [This is really a case of not teaching our kids to mentally cope with the real world, but be that as it may, that is what our people wanted so we need to deal with the "aftermath" of that "social softening."] There is absolutely no excuse for a 13 year old killing someone over anything (save defending someone's life) and if, in the remote chance that this kid honestly and truly "didn't know it was wrong" then he will /never/ know its wrong because something is broke beyond repair in his head - thereby rendering him unsafe to be mixed in with the general public. Stick his ass on a flight to the war zone, clear the area of friendlies, and tell him to kill at will - at least make them useful to our society...

Even getting into less "intentionally" violent crimes - speeding, running red lights/stop signs, aggressive driving, texting while driving, drinking and driving, etc. All of these situations are extremely hazardous and the folks doing it know damn well but do it anyway. They figure they can handle it or w/e, right up until they kill someone else. Their time/discussion/entertainment "outweighs" the risk to themselves and others, which is inherently selfish and incredibly reckless. Admittedly I have no pity for these types at all - and I can't even count how many DUI's I've seen with their lives splattered all over the pavement for their own actions. [I worked in a bar so dealt with a bunch of them] Frankly, my only thought for these assholes was "Good they offed themselves before they hurt anyone else."

Then there's the "white collar" crimes - <insert fancy word for stealing>, tax evasion, etc. I suppose I have slightly less rancor for these types, because usually if they get caught they'll have to pay back what they stole so it's a "lasting" reminder to keep them straight, though I don't consider they shouldn't fear prison as well, and for the same reasons violent criminals would.

We need to make a firm decision; either have a lawless society and are allowed to "wild west" / "every man for himself" it OR we have a society where /everyone/ is required to follow the law - even if they disagree with it, even if they think they can handle it, no damn excuses.

/unrant/

 

[bullwinkle]

The life-long badge of being a felon is one of the few remaining deterrents of crime. The purpose of prison has been turned into "a learning experience" to turn "bad people good" and meanwhile we're educating our kids to take no responsibility for their actions - brilliant... I personally think that the mere possibility of prison should be so heinous, so disturbing, that everyone makes the decision not to risk it and commit crimes because the pussy-footing crap we've been doing is pretty apparent to be ineffective as hell - just look at the repeat offenders and blatant lawlessness these days. These folks don't give two shits about the law and prison is more like detention than an actual punishment... But perhaps that's a different conversation.

I do not believe that anyone commits a crime on "accident" - regardless of if you're stealing or killing, you either a) know it's wrong and restrain yourself or b) you do it anyway. I hear people saying "well kids don't know any better" and I say bullshit. If, as in this case, some twit can't handle rejection from a stupid prom, he is not going to handle real life where rejection of some form or another is pretty much a daily occurrence for the vast majority of folks. [This is really a case of not teaching our kids to mentally cope with the real world, but be that as it may, that is what our people wanted so we need to deal with the "aftermath" of that "social softening."] There is absolutely no excuse for a 13 year old killing someone over anything (save defending someone's life) and if, in the remote chance that this kid honestly and truly "didn't know it was wrong" then he will /never/ know its wrong because something is broke beyond repair in his head - thereby rendering him unsafe to be mixed in with the general public. Stick his ass on a flight to the war zone, clear the area of friendlies, and tell him to kill at will - at least make them useful to our society...

Even getting into less "intentionally" violent crimes - speeding, running red lights/stop signs, aggressive driving, texting while driving, drinking and driving, etc. All of these situations are extremely hazardous and the folks doing it know damn well but do it anyway. They figure they can handle it or w/e, right up until they kill someone else. Their time/discussion/entertainment "outweighs" the risk to themselves and others, which is inherently selfish and incredibly reckless. Admittedly I have no pity for these types at all - and I can't even count how many DUI's I've seen with their lives splattered all over the pavement for their own actions. [I worked in a bar so dealt with a bunch of them] Frankly, my only thought for these assholes was "Good they offed themselves before they hurt anyone else."

Then there's the "white collar" crimes - <insert fancy word for stealing>, tax evasion, etc. I suppose I have slightly less rancor for these types, because usually if they get caught they'll have to pay back what they stole so it's a "lasting" reminder to keep them straight, though I don't consider they shouldn't fear prison as well, and for the same reasons violent criminals would.

We need to make a firm decision; either have a lawless society and are allowed to "wild west" / "every man for himself" it OR we have a society where /everyone/ is required to follow the law - even if they disagree with it, even if they think they can handle it, no damn excuses.

/unrant/

Very cogent post, curious, and well taken. Thanks!