Just wonderin'

[Joz]

The Israelites transported the Ark of the Covenant from place to place and God said NOT to touch the Ark. Remember when it went to fall off the cart and the one man reached out to catch it and he was struck dead?
As a child it always seemed rather cruel to me. I think it's quite natural to instinctively want to protect something that you find sacred or precious.
I also understand that God means what He says.
There is such a thing as a 'death-bed' confession, such as the thief on the cross, but this shows that we never know when death will befall us so it'd be wise to be ready at all times.

But what about a screw-up you don't have time to repent of, such as this man?

 

[Bonnie]

The Israelites transported the Ark of the Covenant from place to place and God said NOT to touch the Ark. Remember when it went to fall off the cart and the one man reached out to catch it and he was struck dead?
As a child it always seemed rather cruel to me. I think it's quite natural to instinctively want to protect something that you find sacred or precious.
I also understand that God means what He says.
There is such a thing as a 'death-bed' confession, such as the thief on the cross, but this shows that we never know when death will befall us so it'd be wise to be ready at all times.

But what about a screw-up you don't have time to repent of, such as this man?

Maybe he got his reward in heaven?

 

[Nienna]

Joz... God knows the hearts of all people. He had to be completely just, and carry out the prescribed punishment for an action, but if a screw-up was an accident, God will not condemn someone to Hell. He will look at a person's heart, and determine if that heart was yearning for God, or given up to selfishness.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty certain that I will die with unrepented sin. I sin ALL THE TIME. It's disgusting, really. It's such a struggle. I am NOT excusing my sin, thinking that since I believe, I can do whatever I want. I have a lot of conversations with God that go like, "I know I shouldn't, but it's just ONE time." Or, "It isn't as bad as ______ . I'm really getting better, right?" And then, once I've done it, I realize that God isn't screwing around, and it was wrong. And I have sin in so MANY areas of my life, that I would be completely overwhelmed if I tried to fix it all right now.

But I trust God, not that I am good enough to get to Heaven, but that He is merciful enough to accept me, because I really do want my life to be more about Him than about me. And I just keep trying.

This is my POV.

 

[dmp]

mom4 just NAILED it. Perfection...

 

[Bullypulpit]

Joz... God knows the hearts of all people. He had to be completely just, and carry out the prescribed punishment for an action, but if a screw-up was an accident, God will not condemn someone to Hell. He will look at a person's heart, and determine if that heart was yearning for God, or given up to selfishness.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty certain that I will die with unrepented sin. I sin ALL THE TIME. It's disgusting, really. It's such a struggle. I am NOT excusing my sin, thinking that since I believe, I can do whatever I want. I have a lot of conversations with God that go like, "I know I shouldn't, but it's just ONE time." Or, "It isn't as bad as ______ . I'm really getting better, right?" And then, once I've done it, I realize that God isn't screwing around, and it was wrong. And I have sin in so MANY areas of my life, that I would be completely overwhelmed if I tried to fix it all right now.

But I trust God, not that I am good enough to get to Heaven, but that He is merciful enough to accept me, because I really do want my life to be more about Him than about me. And I just keep trying.

This is my POV.

Divine justice...absolute, inflexible, unchanging, eternal, an oxymoron.

Regardless of any claim of divine attribution, "God's law" is the product of human perception and cognition and is thus subject to the same limitations of said faculties.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Divine justice...absolute, inflexible, unchanging, eternal, an oxymoron.

Regardless of any claim of divine attribution, "God's law" is the product of human perception and cognition and is thus subject to the same limitations of said faculties.

This has nothing to do with the post it is refering to.

 

[Nienna]

Divine justice...absolute, inflexible, unchanging, eternal, an oxymoron.

Regardless of any claim of divine attribution, "God's law" is the product of human perception and cognition and is thus subject to the same limitations of said faculties.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. You are also free to doubt the existence of my great-aunt Eleanor. But I know she exists. I have talked with her.

 

[Joz]

Divine justice...absolute, inflexible, unchanging, eternal, an oxymoron.

Regardless of any claim of divine attribution, "God's law" is the product of human perception and cognition and is thus subject to the same limitations of said faculties.

If we were talking about whether a woman should cut her hair or whether jewelry is ok, I'd give you this. But "God's Law" is very explicit. There's not much leeway to interpretation.
But you are correct, we limit God, because that's all our finite minds can do. I mean, He made the universe! I can't get my spaghetti & garlic bread done at the same time.

 

[Joz]

Joz... God knows the hearts of all people. He had to be completely just, and carry out the prescribed punishment for an action, but if a screw-up was an accident, God will not condemn someone to Hell. He will look at a person's heart, and determine if that heart was yearning for God, or given up to selfishness.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty certain that I will die with unrepented sin. I sin ALL THE TIME. It's disgusting, really. It's such a struggle. I am NOT excusing my sin, thinking that since I believe, I can do whatever I want. I have a lot of conversations with God that go like, "I know I shouldn't, but it's just ONE time." Or, "It isn't as bad as ______ . I'm really getting better, right?" And then, once I've done it, I realize that God isn't screwing around, and it was wrong. And I have sin in so MANY areas of my life, that I would be completely overwhelmed if I tried to fix it all right now.

But I trust God, not that I am good enough to get to Heaven, but that He is merciful enough to accept me, because I really do want my life to be more about Him than about me. And I just keep trying.

This is my POV.

And this is exactly why we aren't to judge others. Like when we were talking in another thread about kindness, honesty, & selfishness. There are many who give much, but not from their heart. Sometimes we can see that, but not always.
Salvation is a gift given to those who will accept it & live their lives for Christ. But as you said, being sinful naturally, it's a rough row to hoe.

 

[Avatar4321]

Divine justice...absolute, inflexible, unchanging, eternal, an oxymoron.

Regardless of any claim of divine attribution, "God's law" is the product of human perception and cognition and is thus subject to the same limitations of said faculties.

Justice is unflexible. If you don't that you don't know justice.

But then that was the entire purpose of the Atonement. So that the demands of justice could be satisfied and mercy could be extended to those who repent.

I wanted to make one comment on the original post as well.

The Israelites transported the Ark of the Covenant from place to place and God said NOT to touch the Ark. Remember when it went to fall off the cart and the one man reached out to catch it and he was struck dead?

Some people might find this rather harsh. However, I don't think God struck the man dead to punish Him. I think that God knew the consequences of what would happen if someone touched it at the wrong time. Thus His commandments were to protect Him from the natural consequences the actions.

For example, a loving parent will warn their children not to touch the hot stove or they will be burnt. If the children touch the hot stove, even with pure intentions, they will be burnt. Not because the parent was punishing them for breaking their rule. But because they would get hurt regardless.

The commandments of God are like that. The Lord doesnt give us commandments to punish us when we break them. He gives us commandments because He knows the natural consequences of what will happen if we don't follow them.

Ill provide another example. The commandment to refrain from sexual activity outside marriage. The Lord gives us commandments concerning such activity because it has a powerful effect. It's power influences our emotions, actions, and the lives of generations of people to come. Not to mention the natural consequences outside the parameters the Lord has commanded us lead to disease, unwanted pregnancy, abortion, life time burdens, heart break, unnutured children, and lonliness to name a few. The Lord is giving us rules to show us how to be safe and happy. To guide our lives to become something greater than we currently are.

 

[MissileMan]

Ill provide another example. The commandment to refrain from sexual activity outside marriage. The Lord gives us commandments concerning such activity because it has a powerful effect. It's power influences our emotions, actions, and the lives of generations of people to come. Not to mention the natural consequences outside the parameters the Lord has commanded us lead to disease, unwanted pregnancy, abortion, life time burdens, heart break, unnutured children, and lonliness to name a few. The Lord is giving us rules to show us how to be safe and happy. To guide our lives to become something greater than we currently are.

I'm no bible scholar, but I don't recall one of the 10 commandments being, "Thou shalt not have unmarried sex". Is this practice prohibited by other verses in the bible? Which ones?

 

[Joz]

Matthew 15:19; 1 Thesalonians 4:3; Revelation 2:20

My tho'ts.

As Christians we teach & are taught that sex before marriage is wrong. But if you look up the meaning of fornication it is described as "criminal intercourse". Which sheds a whole new meaning on the subject.

I questioned this when I read that Joseph was going to take Mary quietly away because she was with child from another man. When she became pregnant with the Christ-child she was already betrothed to Joseph, so that would have been equal to adultry. But rather than publicly scorn her he was being kind by doing it this way.

Betrothal or engagement is a serious step. It's preparing for the wedding time, not let's see if this is gonna work time; by this time you should be sure.

So can you have a sexual relationship being betrothed?

I believe fornication refers to men who prey on women with no intent but a little action. And so many women today try to keep up with the man's concept with no regard to the other person or the consequences of their behavior. I'll date you exclusively for 6 months and then I'll date him exclusively for 7 month and then I'll date him exclusively for 4 months.......
I think sex requires being in a loving, committed, this-is-who-I-want-to- spend-my-life-with relationship

 

[Hobbit]

I'm no bible scholar, but I don't recall one of the 10 commandments being, "Thou shalt not have unmarried sex". Is this practice prohibited by other verses in the bible? Which ones?

While others are free to interperet this however they want, I think it falls under "Thou shalt not commit adultery." If I have sex before getting married, then I'm cheating on my future wife. That's supposed to be reserved for her and her alone, and whether I give it to somebody undeserving before or during our marriage, it's still cheating.

Other than that, there are plenty of words on the evils of fornication elsewhere in the Bible. Remember how Abraham had a child by his handmaiden because that was the custom in their region, even though that wasn't God's idea? Well, the decendants of that illegitimate son are currently suicide bombing the crap out of Isaac's decendants.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm no bible scholar, but I don't recall one of the 10 commandments being, "Thou shalt not have unmarried sex". Is this practice prohibited by other verses in the bible? Which ones?

Then i suggest you read the 10 commandments again:

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

What exactly do you think Adultery is other than sex with someone you arent married to?

Besides which there are many commandments not found within the 10.

 

[MissileMan]

Then i suggest you read the 10 commandments again:

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

What exactly do you think Adultery is other than sex with someone you arent married to?

The definition I know says adultery is having sex with a person and either you are or they are married to someone else. Of course, it seems to be fashionable these days to make up definitions to suit an argument, so why should you be any different.

Besides which there are many commandments not found within the 10.

I figured as much and text searched the bible to no avail. I assume that as you are more familiar with the bible you might have better luck than I, which is why I asked.

FYI, during my search There was a verse or two which seemed to imply that it was permissable for single man going into a strange village to have relations with a single girl as long as she wasn't betrothed.

 

[Joz]

...I figured as much and text searched the bible to no avail......
FYI, during my search There was a verse or two which seemed to imply that it was permissable for single man going into a strange village to have relations with a single girl as long as she wasn't betrothed.

Apparently the texts I quoted you weren't to your liking. But I was wondering if the reference you are making here is the story found in Deuteronomy 22?

 

[MissileMan]

Apparently the texts I quoted you weren't to your liking. But I was wondering if the reference you are making here is the story found in Deuteronomy 22?

I believe so. Funny, don't you think, that the punishment for rape was marriage? I'm not sure that they were using the word rape then in the same way it is used today. As I remember in Greek mythology, rape seemed to refer to a seduction and ravishment, not a crime of violence as it is used today.

I missed verses in your post and just checked them out. Thanks!

I found the term sexual immorality used, but not well defined. I believe that adultery and beastialty were specifically forbidden. There were some OT verses about a husband slandering his wife by saying she wasn't a virgin when they married, and then the woman's parent had to come up with the (honeymoon sheets?) evidence that she was indeed a virgin or she was stoned to death. There were several other places where it appears that virginity wasn't a requirement for marriage.

The Thesalonian verse was a directive for the disciples who were heading out to spread the message was it not? One that makes sense, too. You wouldn't want someone leaving a trail of pregnant women along with a "permanent" reminder of how Christianity affected their lives.

 

[Joz]

When a woman had sex before marriage she was considerd dishonored , no longer worthy of the entitlement of marriage. But what horror! Not only do you get raped, you get to live with your rapist??? Something has had to get twisted in the interpretation.
The man that forced himself on a maiden would have to take care of her the rest of his life and that was thru marriage. But surely she wasn't expected to be his "wife" in that sense. I realize that in so many places women are referred to almost as posessions. This quite frankly bothers me.

Now if what you're saying is that he put the moves on her & she gave in.... that would be very different. I guess you just better make sure this is the one you want, cause you're gonna be married!

As far as the "honeymoon sheets". Geez, what happened if there was no blood from the first intercourse. Suppose the hymen had been torn riding a camel or fetching some of those huge jugs of water they carried? She didn't stand a snowballs chance in h*ll if the hubby didn't like the way she performed.

From what I understand, the Thessalonian text was Paul telling them that they were to keep the this & the other commandments given to them.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Suppose the hymen had been torn riding a camel

Sidesaddle?

 

[dilloduck]

hence the word 'hump' ?