Jonah Goldberg on the Similarities and Differences between T party and MOWS crowd

[Baruch Menachem]

I get Goldberg's weekly newsletter. He has an interesting discussion on the similarities and differences between the March on Wall Street and Tea Party people.

Both hate the TARP and government subsides to big business. Both sides are protesting the incestuous relations that impoverish normal people while the connected get fat on graft.

However.....

Well, what's sort of fascinating about the Occupy Wall Street/Tea Party comparison is how much overlap there is between their complaints. Scrape off the 31 different kinds of Marxist mold growing on the surface of the 99 Percenters, hose off the stench of urine, bong water, and failure, and you'll find a complaint that many Tea Partiers can appreciate: disgust at corporate bailouts, crony capitalism, and economic mismanagement.

That's a major swath of agreement. The problem? The 99 Percenters' proposed solutions and the Tea Partiers' are absolutely incompatible with each other. The 99 Percenters aren't against taxpayer bailouts -- why would they be? They don't pay much in taxes -- they're just against taxpayer bailouts of the wrong constituencies. After all, if Obama somehow forgave their student loans tomorrow, most of them would go home happy. They want debt forgiveness -- and that's a bailout. Meanwhile, the Tea Parties formed in no small part because, as Rick Santelli put it, taxpayers didn't want to pay for their neighbors' mortgages.

It's really intriguing how the policy differences are informed by cultural differences. The twentysomethings haven't paid much, if anything, in taxes and have received more than they've given. The Tea Partiers tend to be older and have spent a lot of time paying into the system. They resent paying for handouts. The Occupy Wall Streeters resent not getting them. And their definition of greed is not merely wanting to keep your own money, but resisting when others try to take it from you.

 

[Sallow]

Yes..if you scrape off the racist theocratic fascism of the tea party..you do find some common ground. But you have to hose off the stench from depends, jack daniels, old cigs and vicks.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Hey, Jonah's metaphor is copyright. If you are going to use it like that, you gotta pay a royalty.

 

[Wiseacre]

When you have a lot of people out of work for an extended period of time, especially young people, resentment is going to grow until it spills out into the streets. I think it's good that so many are protesting against the status quo, which is essentially what the TPers have been doing.

The problem is that the MOWSers have focused on the wrong people. The Wall Street crowd operates under the rules as determined and regulated by the gov't. If you can find somebody cheating or breaking the rules, fine, go after their asses and throw 'em in jail. But if you ain't happy with the rules or the enforcement then you need to bitching at Washington, as the TPers are doing.

Now if you have a problem with free market capitalism, that's another story. Then you need to go to Cuba or North Korea. Good luck with that, socialism has been tried and always fails.

 

[Sallow]

Hey, Jonah's metaphor is copyright. If you are going to use it like that, you gotta pay a royalty.

 

[Sallow]

When you have a lot of people out of work for an extended period of time, especially young people, resentment is going to grow until it spills out into the streets. I think it's good that so many are protesting against the status quo, which is essentially what the TPers have been doing.

The problem is that the MOWSers have focused on the wrong people. The Wall Street crowd operates under the rules as determined and regulated by the gov't. If you can find somebody cheating or breaking the rules, fine, go after their asses and throw 'em in jail. But if you ain't happy with the rules or the enforcement then you need to bitching at Washington, as the TPers are doing.

Now if you have a problem with free market capitalism, that's another story. Then you need to go to Cuba or North Korea. Good luck with that, socialism has been tried and always fails.

Well that's one way to look at it. Another way is that they used time, leverage and lots of money to get the rule book thrown out the window.

Then the threw the book on ethics and morals into a trashbin, poured kerosene in and lit it.

Then they got rakes for all the cash coming their way..

 

[Wiseacre]

When you have a lot of people out of work for an extended period of time, especially young people, resentment is going to grow until it spills out into the streets. I think it's good that so many are protesting against the status quo, which is essentially what the TPers have been doing.

The problem is that the MOWSers have focused on the wrong people. The Wall Street crowd operates under the rules as determined and regulated by the gov't. If you can find somebody cheating or breaking the rules, fine, go after their asses and throw 'em in jail. But if you ain't happy with the rules or the enforcement then you need to bitching at Washington, as the TPers are doing.

Now if you have a problem with free market capitalism, that's another story. Then you need to go to Cuba or North Korea. Good luck with that, socialism has been tried and always fails.

Well that's one way to look at it. Another way is that they used time, leverage and lots of money to get the rule book thrown out the window.

Then the threw the book on ethics and morals into a trashbin, poured kerosene in and lit it.

Then they got rakes for all the cash coming their way..

Overstated, but somewhat true. Free market capitalism can work to good advantage, there's no better economic system known to man. But it does have to be monitored, to ensure there's no lying, stealing, and cheating. We have to do better at promoting competition, and encouraging entrepeneurship. We have to ensure enough accurate information is presented to the public and to businesses and investors, no pigs in a poke like we had with all those bundled subprime mortgages that lead to the housing bubble. You canpoint the finger at Wall Street, and that's fine, they did things that were at least questionable. But to me the real fault lies with the gov't for not ensuring the regs were proper and were enforced properly. Instead, the emphasis was on getting too many voters into houses they really couldn't afford.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Essentially the MOWS crowd is saying the cure for this kind of thing is more of the same. The Tea Party is saying we need to do something completely different.

Doing the same stupid, but for different beneficiaries leads to the same bad results. Giving handouts to corrupt executives at Enron or giving handouts to corrupt executives at Solyndra is stil results in disastrous policies for the consumer.

 

[Wicked Jester]

The main difference is, the Tea Party members actually work, bathe, wash their clothes, and actually know what the fuck they are talking about.

These liberals running around acting like a bunch of uneducated morons, don't work, bathe, wash their clothes, or know what the fuck they are talking about.........They are an embarrassment to all hard working, clean, educated americans.

 

[California Girl]

Yes..if you scrape off the racist theocratic fascism of the tea party..you do find some common ground. But you have to hose off the stench from depends, jack daniels, old cigs and vicks.

More drunken ranting, swallow?

Seriously.... sober up occasionally. Sad lying old bastard.

 

[California Girl]

The main difference is, the Tea Party members actually work, bathe, wash their clothes, and actually know what the fuck they are talking about.

These liberals running around acting like a bunch of uneducated morons, don't work, bathe, wash their clothes, or know what the fuck they are talking about.........They are an embarrassment to all hard working, clean, educated americans.

The main difference between the two is that the OWS is a bunch of suckers getting played by the left.

 

[Sallow]

Yes..if you scrape off the racist theocratic fascism of the tea party..you do find some common ground. But you have to hose off the stench from depends, jack daniels, old cigs and vicks.

More drunken ranting, swallow?

Seriously.... sober up occasionally. Sad lying old bastard.

Irony escapes ya don't it NaziGirl?

Cuddle up with your jackboots and gas another jew will ya?

 

[Sallow]

When you have a lot of people out of work for an extended period of time, especially young people, resentment is going to grow until it spills out into the streets. I think it's good that so many are protesting against the status quo, which is essentially what the TPers have been doing.

The problem is that the MOWSers have focused on the wrong people. The Wall Street crowd operates under the rules as determined and regulated by the gov't. If you can find somebody cheating or breaking the rules, fine, go after their asses and throw 'em in jail. But if you ain't happy with the rules or the enforcement then you need to bitching at Washington, as the TPers are doing.

Now if you have a problem with free market capitalism, that's another story. Then you need to go to Cuba or North Korea. Good luck with that, socialism has been tried and always fails.

Well that's one way to look at it. Another way is that they used time, leverage and lots of money to get the rule book thrown out the window.

Then the threw the book on ethics and morals into a trashbin, poured kerosene in and lit it.

Then they got rakes for all the cash coming their way..

Overstated, but somewhat true. Free market capitalism can work to good advantage, there's no better economic system known to man. But it does have to be monitored, to ensure there's no lying, stealing, and cheating. We have to do better at promoting competition, and encouraging entrepeneurship. We have to ensure enough accurate information is presented to the public and to businesses and investors, no pigs in a poke like we had with all those bundled subprime mortgages that lead to the housing bubble. You canpoint the finger at Wall Street, and that's fine, they did things that were at least questionable. But to me the real fault lies with the gov't for not ensuring the regs were proper and were enforced properly. Instead, the emphasis was on getting too many voters into houses they really couldn't afford.

Free market capitalism is the best system. But it needs to be well regulated. The inclination of entrepeneurs is to merge and remove competition, because in the long run it's cheaper and therefore more profitable. Once that happens..it's no longer capitalism.

And it's not "completely" the fault of government. Government was tainted by wealth. That really has to be addressed..or the system of government and capitalism we enjoy now will be history.

 

[Foxfyre]

Have you guys SEEN the proposed list of demands of the Occupy Wall Street group? (These were discussed at length by our No 1 local radio station here on Tuesday.) Bear in mind these are proposals and not an official list.

But this sure doesn't look like Tea Party stuff to me. Is the the same group as MOWS?

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

 

[Wiseacre]

Have you guys SEEN the proposed list of demands of the Occupy Wall Street group? (These were discussed at length by our No 1 local radio station here on Tuesday.) Bear in mind these are proposals and not an official list.

But this sure doesn't look like Tea Party stuff to me. Is the the same group as MOWS?

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

This list of demands is from one person posting on an online forum like this one, I would assume this person speaks for anyone but him/herself. However it does seem to be inline somewhat with what they are demonstraing about. And no, this is nothing like what the Tea Party people want to do.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

The comparison is not with the proposals, which are wildly different, but with the frustrations and anxieties. Mr Goldberg makes the point that the MOWS folks seem to be clueless as to the source of their frustration, and that their methods of solving problems seem to be designed to only exacerbate them

 

[Foxfyre]

Have you guys SEEN the proposed list of demands of the Occupy Wall Street group? (These were discussed at length by our No 1 local radio station here on Tuesday.) Bear in mind these are proposals and not an official list.

But this sure doesn't look like Tea Party stuff to me. Is the the same group as MOWS?

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

This list of demands is from one person posting on an online forum like this one, I would assume this person speaks for anyone but him/herself. However it does seem to be inline somewhat with what they are demonstraing about. And no, this is nothing like what the Tea Party people want to do.

You are correct that the list is what I believe to be a spoof the guy came up with re the MOWS group. And I should have specified that when I posted it though it is obvious at the website. Sorry about that. But the MOWS group are so incoherant about what they seem to be marching for, the spoof is pretty funny I think. There are rumors that many of the MOWS marchers were bribed, coerced, or otherwise paid to be there and many if not most don't know what it is all about.

Reminds me of decades ago, a young Barbra Streisand was enlisted by a N.O.W. group to attend a pro choice rally. Somebody realized that Streisand, naturally a magnet for the media, was passionately arguing a pro life stance. Somebody took her aside to inform her that she was supposed to be an advocate for women's right to an abortion. That was okay with her and she went that way for the rest of the rally time. Some commitment huh.

Tea Partiers on the other hand are pretty clear what they are rallying for and most can articulate it quite competently.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is interesting however, that though the folks on the website made clear the list wasn't theirs, I didn't see where they objected to the content. Nor have any of the anti-Tea Party and/or pro MOWS folks posting on this thread. Nor have any of the pro MOWS folks posting on an intended-to-be-light thread I started re that spoof list.

My guess is, not a single Tea Partier would agree to anything on that list of 'proposals' but some in the MOWS group would.

 

[Wicked Jester]

It is interesting however, that though the folks on the website made clear the list wasn't theirs, I didn't see where they objected to the content. Nor have any of the anti-Tea Party and/or pro MOWS folks posting on this thread. Nor have any of the pro MOWS folks posting on an intended-to-be-light thread I started re that spoof list.

My guess is, not a single Tea Partier would agree to anything on that list of 'proposals' but some in the MOWS group would.

Actually, O'Reilly's producer has interviewed many of the OWS loons.....Their demands mirror exactly what was posted........As if these fools actually think any of those demands are feasible.

 

[Zander]

The main differences are the Tea Partiers are non violent, employed, bathe regularly, and shit in toilets. The COWS are violent, unemployed, filthy stink bombs, that shit in the streets.