Israel's "Right to Exist"?

[docmauser1]

"The US and Israel have demanded further that Palestinians not only recognize Israel's rights as a state in the international system, but that they also recognize Israel's abstract 'right to exist,' a concept that has no place in international law or diplomacy, and a right claimed by no one.

Ah. Conversely, palistanians don't really need a state, not that they wanted it in the first place, of course!

 

[patrickcaturday]

Israel wasn't satisified with the Palestinian government recognizing their right to exist; now, the Israeli government wants them to recognize Israel as a theocracy- a "Jewish" state.

Which would make sense,maybe, if most of Israel's population followed Judaism!

Israel has a right to designate itself a JEWISH COUNTRY to the same extent that a country populated by muslims has a right to declare itself a MUSLIM COUNTRY In fact Israel has the right to restrict citizenship entirely to jews----just as MALDIVES has recently declared that one must be a muslim to be a citizen of that country Your comments demonstrate the fact that you have a notion that jews should have less rights than non jews

As to the assertion by some of your ilk that NO OTHER COUNTRY HAS DECLARED ITS RIGHT TO EXIST-------wrong again The Declaration of Independence ---ratified in 1776 in Philadelphia was a clear statement of THE RIGHT OF THE UNITED STATES TO EXIST you should learn some history----in fact current events would help too..
As to who does or does not "follow judaism" ----none of your business. I have worked with many muslims who came to the USA from self declared "MUSLIM COUNTRIES" In fact sometime ago my job included GREETING new comers from those lands-------the first question MANY MANY of them asked was "where can I buy beer" Does that mean that Iran and Pakistan cannot call themselves "muslim countries"?

Your post is truly enlightening and should be an example that we all follow. The principal that it teaches is simple . That principal is if you don't have the facts just make it up as you go.

Now let me see if I have the jist of your first paragraph. You seem to imply that the standard for behavior that countries ( Israel ) should be judged by is set by Muslims, ie if the Muslims do it then it is ok to follow their example. I am glad to know this I will have to take this into consideration in the future

You should learn some history before you go throwing stones at others !!! The Declaration of Independence is not so much a document that codifies the right of the United States to exist rather it is a statement that individuals have certain rights that are granted to them by their Creator and that if a government tries to take these right away from them the people have a right to revolution. Indeed the document refers to the independence of each of the 13 colonies as independent states.
The document which codifies the existance of the United States was not ratified untill 1789 and it is knowen as the US Constitution. Check your history before you spout off. And that is not a statement of anyones right to exist it is just a contract on how certain people choose to co-exist with each other.

 

[docmauser1]

"The recently published report by an Israeli judge concluding that Israel is not in fact occupying the Palestinian territories – despite a well-established international consensus to the contrary – has provoked mostly incredulity or mirth in Israel and abroad. Israel’s Annexation Plan » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Too bad counterpunch losers occupationally forgot to supply names of that palistanian shakh, sheikh, sultan, emir, pasha, president, prime-minister of that "palestine" to elevate "occupation-consensus" above the drivel level, of course.

drivel...help Chomsky understand the "non-occupation" you're blathering about:

He needs professional help and care, of course, like any Pol Pot admirer.

"That includes, specifically, the right to live in peace and security within its recognized international borders, understood to be the pre-June 1967 borders, with minor and mutual adjustments.

Chomsky's an asshole (hence his popularity among his bros-in-intellect here) that occupationally forgets that 1967 "borders" have been cease-fire lines (even honorable P F Tinmore knows that!), that so-called WB was under jordanian control, - not recognized, - and Gaza was under egyptian control, - not recognized either. So, what borders can be negotiated with non-recognized controlling entities? Pol Pot knows. Bth., did counterpunch losers supply names of that palistanian shakh, sheikh, sultan, emir, pasha, president, prime-minister of that "palestine" to elevate "occupation-consensus" above the drivel level, yet?

Do those rights include title to all land between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River?

Cool! Palistanians need humanitarian resettlement not a state, anyway, for their own good, of course.

 

[irosie91]

Israel has a right to designate itself a JEWISH COUNTRY to the same extent that a country populated by muslims has a right to declare itself a MUSLIM COUNTRY In fact Israel has the right to restrict citizenship entirely to jews----just as MALDIVES has recently declared that one must be a muslim to be a citizen of that country Your comments demonstrate the fact that you have a notion that jews should have less rights than non jews

As to the assertion by some of your ilk that NO OTHER COUNTRY HAS DECLARED ITS RIGHT TO EXIST-------wrong again The Declaration of Independence ---ratified in 1776 in Philadelphia was a clear statement of THE RIGHT OF THE UNITED STATES TO EXIST you should learn some history----in fact current events would help too..
As to who does or does not "follow judaism" ----none of your business. I have worked with many muslims who came to the USA from self declared "MUSLIM COUNTRIES" In fact sometime ago my job included GREETING new comers from those lands-------the first question MANY MANY of them asked was "where can I buy beer" Does that mean that Iran and Pakistan cannot call themselves "muslim countries"?

Your post is truly enlightening and should be an example that we all follow. The principal that it teaches is simple . That principal is if you don't have the facts just make it up as you go.

Now let me see if I have the jist of your first paragraph. You seem to imply that the standard for behavior that countries ( Israel ) should be judged by is set by Muslims, ie if the Muslims do it then it is ok to follow their example. I am glad to know this I will have to take this into consideration in the future

You should learn some history before you go throwing stones at others !!! The Declaration of Independence is not so much a document that codifies the right of the United States to exist rather it is a statement that individuals have certain rights that are granted to them by their Creator and that if a government tries to take these right away from them the people have a right to revolution. Indeed the document refers to the independence of each of the 13 colonies as independent states.
The document which codifies the existance of the United States was not ratified untill 1789 and it is knowen as the US Constitution. Check your history before you spout off. And that is not a statement of anyones right to exist it is just a contract on how certain people choose to co-exist with each other.

Your response borders on psychotic I did not mention EMULATING MUSLIM COUNTRIES ---I simply stated that Israel has the same RIGHTS that muslim countries
in the middle east have -----you accept it in muslim countries that they are called "muslim" countries and therefore should be able to accept Israel as a "jewish country" That is not "EMULATION OF ACTION" that is "RIGHT TO SELF DESIGNATE"

read the declaration of independence -----it very clearly states that the people of the 13 colonies have a RIGHT TO BE A SEPARATE POLITICAL ENTITY--SEPARATE FROM ENGLIANG BY ITS OWN DECREE. It asserts the right to INDEPENDENCE AS A COUNTRY The constitution does not-----the constitution details the RIGHTS of the CITIZENS and to some extent the structure of the government. THE CONSTITUTION DESCRIBES THE USA In fact it details the notion that the USA is a secular country------It COULD HAVE DESCRIBED IT AS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY----and still have been a valid constitution

 

[High_Gravity]

Israel has the right to exist, pretty simple. Even a 4 year old can grasp that concept.

 

[Jos]

Israel has the right to exit

 

[High_Gravity]

Israel has the right to exit

Come on man.

 

[Lipush]

The Palestinian government recognizes Israel's right to exist.

When will Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist?

The Palestinian government is Hamas. Hamas never recognized Israel's right to exist. It's charter says clearly that the organization's target is to destroy Israel.

 

[Lipush]

Israel wasn't satisified with the Palestinian government recognizing their right to exist; now, the Israeli government wants them to recognize Israel as a theocracy- a "Jewish" state.

Which would make sense,maybe, if most of Israel's population followed Judaism!

"Jewish state" as a state for the Jewish nation! nothing to do with religion.

 

[sealadaigh]

Israel wasn't satisified with the Palestinian government recognizing their right to exist; now, the Israeli government wants them to recognize Israel as a theocracy- a "Jewish" state.

Which would make sense,maybe, if most of Israel's population followed Judaism!

"Jewish state" as a state for the Jewish nation! nothing to do with religion.

UHHHHHHHHH, YEAH.

and the vatican is a state for the catholic nation...has nothing to do with religion.

 

[sealadaigh]

Israel has the right to exist, pretty simple. Even a 4 year old can grasp that concept.

come on, man.

 

[High_Gravity]

Israel has the right to exist, pretty simple. Even a 4 year old can grasp that concept.

come on, man.

Cool story bro.

 

[sealadaigh]

Israel has the right to exist, pretty simple. Even a 4 year old can grasp that concept.

come on, man.

Cool story bro.

LOL...it just seems that, for a concept that even a 4 year old can grasp, a lot of adults can't explain it and they are jumping through all kinds of hoops to avoid it.

 

[High_Gravity]

come on, man.

Cool story bro.

LOL...it just seems that, for a concept that even a 4 year old can grasp, a lot of adults can't explain it and they are jumping through all kinds of hoops to avoid it.

Its pretty simple English sweet tits.

 

[Toro]

just what exactly is it?

i hear the term "right to exist" used quite a bit when speaking of israel and occasionally, but very rarely, some other states, but no one really explains it or questions the concept.

i mean, who or what gives israel this right to exist? who conferred it upon israel or was it just expressed generally and is applied to all states and would be states? did israel have a right to exist before it became a state? it would seem that such a right to exist would be universal. is it codified or mentioned in some jurisdictional or international legal system? anywhere? does it have any historical or legal precedent or continuity and, if so, from when? where?

does there ever come a time when such a "right to exist" ceases and, if so, when, where, and how?

personally. i have no idea whether israel, or any state, has a "right to exist." it just seems like a very odd concept with no precedent or standing whatsoever.

Israel has a right to exist just as every other nation state on earth has a right to exist. If you think Israel has no right to exist, then no other nation state has a right to exist.

 

[Billo_Really]

No one should recognize Israel's right to exist until they do the same for the Palestinian's.

 

[patrickcaturday]

Your post is truly enlightening and should be an example that we all follow. The principal that it teaches is simple . That principal is if you don't have the facts just make it up as you go.

Now let me see if I have the jist of your first paragraph. You seem to imply that the standard for behavior that countries ( Israel ) should be judged by is set by Muslims, ie if the Muslims do it then it is ok to follow their example. I am glad to know this I will have to take this into consideration in the future

You should learn some history before you go throwing stones at others !!! The Declaration of Independence is not so much a document that codifies the right of the United States to exist rather it is a statement that individuals have certain rights that are granted to them by their Creator and that if a government tries to take these right away from them the people have a right to revolution. Indeed the document refers to the independence of each of the 13 colonies as independent states.
The document which codifies the existance of the United States was not ratified untill 1789 and it is knowen as the US Constitution. Check your history before you spout off. And that is not a statement of anyones right to exist it is just a contract on how certain people choose to co-exist with each other.

Your response borders on psychotic I did not mention EMULATING MUSLIM COUNTRIES ---I simply stated that Israel has the same RIGHTS that muslim countries
in the middle east have -----you accept it in muslim countries that they are called "muslim" countries and therefore should be able to accept Israel as a "jewish country" That is not "EMULATION OF ACTION" that is "RIGHT TO SELF DESIGNATE"

read the declaration of independence -----it very clearly states that the people of the 13 colonies have a RIGHT TO BE A SEPARATE POLITICAL ENTITY--SEPARATE FROM ENGLIANG BY ITS OWN DECREE. It asserts the right to INDEPENDENCE AS A COUNTRY The constitution does not-----the constitution details the RIGHTS of the CITIZENS and to some extent the structure of the government. THE CONSTITUTION DESCRIBES THE USA In fact it details the notion that the USA is a secular country------It COULD HAVE DESCRIBED IT AS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY----and still have been a valid constitution

You need to discipline yourself more closely in your reading. I did not state or imply that Israel should emulate Muslim countries. What I said simply was that the standard that you set for Israel was that if a Muslim country did something then it was alright for Israel to do the same thing. I made sure to use the word standard not copy as that would have lead to the conclusion that you jumped to anyway.

You also said that I accept it in Muslim countries that they are called " Muslim " countries. I never made any statement to that effect. The problem that I have with a country saying that it is a Muslim country, Islamic Republic, or a Jewish State is that these countries almost always declare themselves to be democracies. They are not at best they can be called theocracies.



Read the Declaration of Independence, I have more times then I actually care to admit. I studied it along with the US Constitution in college. It was a year and a half of study and at times it was very tedious but it has proven to be well worth the effort. I Have studied almost all of the great American Political Philosophers of the time and they were indeed GIANTS. If you read the following quotes from the Declaration you will see that the Founding Fathers wanted to make sure that in it they were not dealing with one country but rather with 13 separate states;

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only

.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do

us declaration of independence wiki - Bing


It Is interesting to note that in the last quote which completely proves my point by using such phrases as " these colonies " and " free and Independent States the fact that when the term " united States of America ' is used the word united is not capitalized. These people were word smiths of perfection and they did not do anything without purpose. The lack of capitalization was not a mistake it was used to show that the colonies were united in common opposition to the crown but not that the were one single entity. You should remember this for later.



Your knowledge of the Constitution is sorely lacking. It is the founding document of the United States. here read the preamble;

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

us constitution wikipedia - Bing

This preamble has the authority of the people, sets out what it wants to do, and what it hopes to accomplish !!!



Two things to note the United States did not come into existence until the Constitution was ratification 1790. You should also note that in the preamble when the term " United States of America " is used the word united is capitalized thus indicating a single entity.

 

[sealadaigh]

just what exactly is it?

i hear the term "right to exist" used quite a bit when speaking of israel and occasionally, but very rarely, some other states, but no one really explains it or questions the concept.

i mean, who or what gives israel this right to exist? who conferred it upon israel or was it just expressed generally and is applied to all states and would be states? did israel have a right to exist before it became a state? it would seem that such a right to exist would be universal. is it codified or mentioned in some jurisdictional or international legal system? anywhere? does it have any historical or legal precedent or continuity and, if so, from when? where?

does there ever come a time when such a "right to exist" ceases and, if so, when, where, and how?

personally. i have no idea whether israel, or any state, has a "right to exist." it just seems like a very odd concept with no precedent or standing whatsoever.

Israel has a right to exist just as every other nation state on earth has a right to exist. If you think Israel has no right to exist, then no other nation state has a right to exist.

look...i just asked a question wiyhout a comment.particularly. another poster had respondedd to me on another thread saying that israel had a right to exist as a free state and it struck me as??? i don't know.

i suppose i could phrase thee question a diferent way. what gives italy the right to exist. in the above, everywhere you see "israel", substitute italy.

people are telling me how simple concept it is. try this. did the former state of yugoslovia have a right to exist. did NAZI germany have a right to exist. did south vietnam have a right to exist. does a kurdistan have a right to exist. how about iran. did israel have a right to exist on 1 january, 1948.

as for israel, why does that right to exoist have to be acknowledged over and over again by every tom, dick, and harry before they will enter into peace nefotiations.

and jhere is a kicker that i just thought of right this minute. someone is off chattering about HAMAS not recognising israel's right tto exist (not true...charters mean shite and are old and don't always keep up with the plan...think israeli constitution on that one) when israel doesn't recognise HAMAS, who they themselves helped create to diminish the power of the PLO...and became the elected representaative of the PA when israel refused to negotiate with abbas.

and anyway. apparently what we have here is a simple concept that none of the extraordinarly intelligent and supremely wise zionist posters cannot explain to me, a simplton in what appears to be a samuel beckett like extravaganza...with a cast of thousands.

no one has given me an answer. everyone has danced the avoidance dance...and no where and no way did i ever suggest that israel be treated any differently rom any other state. in fact, just the opposite is true. do you think that israel should be treated like every other state and every other state should be treated like israel?

 

[georgephillip]

"The US and Israel have demanded further that Palestinians not only recognize Israel's rights as a state in the international system, but that they also recognize Israel's abstract 'right to exist,' a concept that has no place in international law or diplomacy, and a right claimed by no one.

Ah. Conversely, palistanians don't really need a state, not that they wanted it in the first place, of course!

Or maybe the state a majority of Palestinians preferred in 1948 would've come into existence through free elections instead of ethnic cleansing?

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus, known in Arabic as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة*, an-Nakbah, lit. 'disaster', 'catastrophe', or 'cataclysm'),[1] occurred when approximately 711,000 to 725,000 Palestinian Arabs left, fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine that preceded it."

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Surely you remember (fondly?) how one-third of the citizens of Mandate Palestine imposed a Jewish State on the majority of Palestinians by force of arms?

 

[Toro]

just what exactly is it?

i hear the term "right to exist" used quite a bit when speaking of israel and occasionally, but very rarely, some other states, but no one really explains it or questions the concept.

i mean, who or what gives israel this right to exist? who conferred it upon israel or was it just expressed generally and is applied to all states and would be states? did israel have a right to exist before it became a state? it would seem that such a right to exist would be universal. is it codified or mentioned in some jurisdictional or international legal system? anywhere? does it have any historical or legal precedent or continuity and, if so, from when? where?

does there ever come a time when such a "right to exist" ceases and, if so, when, where, and how?

personally. i have no idea whether israel, or any state, has a "right to exist." it just seems like a very odd concept with no precedent or standing whatsoever.

Israel has a right to exist just as every other nation state on earth has a right to exist. If you think Israel has no right to exist, then no other nation state has a right to exist.

look...i just asked a question wiyhout a comment.particularly. another poster had respondedd to me on another thread saying that israel had a right to exist as a free state and it struck me as??? i don't know.

i suppose i could phrase thee question a diferent way. what gives italy the right to exist. in the above, everywhere you see "israel", substitute italy.

people are telling me how simple concept it is. try this. did the former state of yugoslovia have a right to exist. did NAZI germany have a right to exist. did south vietnam have a right to exist. does a kurdistan have a right to exist. how about iran. did israel have a right to exist on 1 january, 1948.

as for israel, why does that right to exoist have to be acknowledged over and over again by every tom, dick, and harry before they will enter into peace nefotiations.

and jhere is a kicker that i just thought of right this minute. someone is off chattering about HAMAS not recognising israel's right tto exist (not true...charters mean shite and are old and don't always keep up with the plan...think israeli constitution on that one) when israel doesn't recognise HAMAS, who they themselves helped create to diminish the power of the PLO...and became the elected representaative of the PA when israel refused to negotiate with abbas.

and anyway. apparently what we have here is a simple concept that none of the extraordinarly intelligent and supremely wise zionist posters cannot explain to me, a simplton in what appears to be a samuel beckett like extravaganza...with a cast of thousands.

no one has given me an answer. everyone has danced the avoidance dance...and no where and no way did i ever suggest that israel be treated any differently rom any other state. in fact, just the opposite is true. do you think that israel should be treated like every other state and every other state should be treated like israel?

I don't think Israel should be treated any different than any other state, and I expect Israel to behave just like any other state. And just like when any other state is under existential attack, I expect Israel to defend itself.

When I hear someone say Israel has a right to exist, it is a counter-argument against those who say Israel has no right to the land it occupies. If Israel has no right to occupy its land, does Italy also not have a right to occupy its land? The subtext of that argument is that Israel does not have the right to occupy the land because it is Palestinian land, who do have the right to occupy the land. If Israel has no right to occupy the land, then neither do the Palestinians, and instead it becomes a matter of force and Realpolitik. One way or the other, I don't really care about the semantics of the argument. Israel is there. It exists. Full-stop. If they don't have a right to the land, neither does anyone else, including the Palestinians. So if you criticize the argument that Israel has the right to exist, you have to also criticize the argument that Israel occupies Palestinian land.